2008.10.18 13:00 - Wol Euler finally understands APAPB!

The guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

I arrived at the pavilion wearing a political statement and suddenly realised I ought change of clothing might be appropriate.

Wol Euler: hello storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi Wol.
Storm Nordwind: Let me change!
Wol Euler covers her eyes.
Storm Nordwind: OK - now in more neutral attire.
Wol Euler: you were grey before so I'll take your word for it :-)
Storm Nordwind: Let's just say that Adams would have approved! ;)
Wol Euler: heheheheh

I guessed Wol would be slaving over a hot script, but have heard news from the PaB fest.

Storm Nordwind: So what news? Projects? RL meetings?... ?
Wol Euler: no new projects, just struggling with the listener still. found a bug, think that I've only half fixed it though.
Wol Euler: It's odd, seems to work but my intuition tells me that my solution is not right.
Storm Nordwind nods understandingly
Wol Euler: there is still some nasty edge condition in it that isn't covered.
Storm Nordwind: Ah the life of an engineer
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler: well, at least it isn't hospital systems.
Storm Nordwind smiles
Wol Euler: the responsibility that goes with those, I don't know how people sleep at night.
Storm Nordwind: Maybe they are like me and Pema. We don't!
Wol Euler: heheheheh

I suddenly realised that a mischievous mind might have completely misinterpreted my last statement. Wol showed no sign of doing so, or was good naturedly ignoring it, so we continued talking technical for a while. I helped myself to an espresso coffee.

Storm Nordwind: And LSL gives you so many constraints and a monolithic set of tools
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: no buying-in libraries to fix something
Storm Nordwind: Much as I like event driven state engines, it needs more richness in a rather different way
Wol Euler shakes her head, how you can drink coffee at this time of night...
Storm Nordwind: Helps me sleep
Wol Euler: O.O
Storm Nordwind: or not - like I said earlier
Wol Euler: ah

I described my latest build.

Storm Nordwind: I've been playing with a Kira Science Park layout
Wol Euler: ah :-)
Storm Nordwind: Kind of fun. I need to adapt my original scheme because of an awkward tract of land in the way of the build that doesn't belong to us and the owners never seem to be here
Wol Euler chuckles. how annoying.
Storm Nordwind: But the result - as ever in organic growth - is something far better and more interesting artistically and probably better functionally
Wol Euler: inner-city hybrid vigour compared to green-field dullness.
Storm Nordwind: Sort of
Storm Nordwind: The original idea was Science Park, Cafe, Campus, running west to east
Storm Nordwind: The cafe in the middle
Storm Nordwind: But there were good reasons to have the campus aloft
Wol Euler: ah!
Storm Nordwind: And the Cafe was rather odd stuck on the ground
Storm Nordwind: So that too is aloft
Storm Nordwind: But then what of the science park?
Storm Nordwind: So my idea was to have the Science park in three dimensions
Wol Euler nods
Storm Nordwind: I conceived the idea of making it like the Atomium
Storm Nordwind: Are you familiar with that structure in Brussels?
Wol Euler: only from photos
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: Well that wasn't going to work with this chunk of land stopping me
Storm Nordwind: So I had a brainwave
Wol Euler: hello geo, nice to meet you at last
Geo Netizen: Namaste Wol
Storm Nordwind: Instead of modelling the structure of the iron atom, which is limited and kind of passe
Storm Nordwind: I hit on the idea of modelling it on the carbon nanotube!
Wol Euler: :-DDDD
Storm Nordwind: Which now surrounds the awkward land plot
Storm Nordwind: And of course is extensible upwards
Storm Nordwind: And is very much more modern
Storm Nordwind: Anyway, the proof of concept is in place.
Wol Euler is smug. I was about to suggest the carbon ring atom structure
Storm Nordwind: So now I will design each node rather more completely and replicate it.
Storm Nordwind: But I like the look
Wol Euler: sounds great.

A visitor had slipped in and I had rudely ignored them until now. We made our introductions.

Storm Nordwind: I'm sorry Geo, I seem to have ignored you so far!
Geo Netizen: No please … continue …
Storm Nordwind: Techy stuff about how we are supporting PaB projects (Wol's earlier stuff) and Kira Science projects in SL
Geo Netizen: Is the topic mainly about scripting?
Wol Euler: Sl content creation in any case :-)
Wol Euler: building and scripting
Geo Netizen: Ahhhh ,,, always interesting
Wol Euler: but it can be changed to something morre PaBbish.
Storm Nordwind: I agree
Storm Nordwind listens politely while slurping coffee
Storm Nordwind: And silence is good too :)

And we kept silence for a long while until I hazarded an introduction.

Storm Nordwind: Geo I'm not sure I've had the pleasure of your company before, though my memory is notoriously unreliable!
Geo Netizen: I’ve only been to two of these sessions so …. It’s very nice to meet you.
Storm Nordwind: You too
Wol Euler: really? I thought I'd seen your name in logs more often than that.
Storm Nordwind: And you have come back a third time :) Have you tried the practice at the core of Play as Being?
Geo Netizen: It seems that the discussion involves the level of detail or granularity in SL programming … Is that close.
Wol Euler: (something in my eye, brb)
Geo Netizen: Yes … a third time … and my approach to the practice is a little different.
Storm Nordwind: I'd be interested to hear about it.
Geo Netizen: Fewer times a day and for longer each time.
Geo Netizen: It’s an old habit that I try to maintain.
Storm Nordwind: How few is few? How long is long?
Geo Netizen: Seven times each day from 5 min to 20 min
Geo Netizen: As I said, a little different but it’s a good habit I try to keep.
Storm Nordwind: An exact number. This therefore coincides with some other practice?
Geo Netizen: In a sense …
Wol Euler: back, and reading
Storm Nordwind: I will not pry if you'd like to keep things personal. But I am interested if you would like to share. :)

Geo described what seemed like a personal investigation into correspondences between apparent realities.

Geo Netizen: It is an effort to be present to both FL and 0th, but now 2nd also
Geo Netizen: Sorry … FL is how I refer to what others call RL, it’s First Life
Storm Nordwind: How different do you see all of those?
Wol Euler smiles
Geo Netizen: Each has its own limitations which differ but what I’m finding most interesting is the amount of similarities.
Storm Nordwind nods
Geo Netizen: Is SL truly less ‘real’ in a core sense than FL? …
Storm Nordwind: If you read my profile you will notice that I see little difference between the two
Geo Netizen: Particularly when you view the relation of 1st to 2nd in the light of the relation between 0th and 1st.
Wol Euler smiles and shakes her head. SL is very real.
Geo Netizen: Ah … yes I see.
Storm Nordwind: Interesting. What is your view of that latter relation?
Geo Netizen: I believe that I may be able to gain a better sense of the relation between 0th and 1st by examining the relation between 1st and 2nd …
Storm Nordwind: That would seem to be important to you to get that sense

Geo was evidently pleased to be here.

Geo Netizen: That’s what I find most exciting about this group … you are, in a deep way exploring that very issue.
Storm Nordwind nods
Wol Euler: RL-we are to our SL-avs as Being is to RL-us?
Storm Nordwind: There are several levels too. The exercises - for there are several - can be taken lightly, or they can be undergone in great depth and intensity
Storm Nordwind: It is largely a matter of personal choice, need and motivation
Geo Netizen: I do not know of another way to discern what is core to reality and what is superficial

Somewhere in continental Europe, there were fingers at a keyboard driven by a new realisation...

Wol Euler finally understands APAPB!

Elsewhere in Europe, I smiled and remembered.

Geo Netizen: Anyway … these are my thoughts … they are not yet well formed …
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Storm Nordwind: Well you are welcome to air your thoughts here!
Storm Nordwind: You will find many an interested ear
Wol Euler: absolutely.
Geo Netizen: I appreciate the open and dynamic forum … everyone has very insightful and challenging ideas.
Storm Nordwind: Although, we are not a talk only group, as many others are. Our core lies in the experiences
Geo Netizen: Yes … but the discussion informs the experience …
Storm Nordwind: I would like to say it was the other way round :)
Geo Netizen: And therefore, experience without reflection is empty.
Storm Nordwind: Sure
Geo Netizen: Yes ... I can see that it works both ways, good point.
Geo Netizen: Therefore, it would be just as true to say that discussion without experience is empty.
Storm Nordwind: Certainly reflection is encouraged in play as Being
Wol Euler: Marx would agree, Geo: "the point is the change"
Storm Nordwind: And as an aid to that, we encourage people to note down their experiences. Many keep blogs.
Storm Nordwind: I hope you will notice another interesting thing about this group. I see people of many backgrounds and religions, and many with no religion at all. There is no dictatorship and no "shoulds" here! :)
Geo Netizen: I have only found the greatest respect among those I have met so far and …. Seen some affection to :)
Wol Euler nods
Geo Netizen: Again, I have been impressed.
Storm Nordwind: I share your impressions there.
Storm Nordwind: I have been with this group since its birth
Storm Nordwind: I have seen many great relationships form. Many deep shared understandings. But there is always the ability to Play - as in the name!
Geo Netizen: I find deep discussions and sharing to be play as good as any!
Storm Nordwind: yes! And - quite often - vice versa too. :)
Geo Netizen: yes

I wondered if it was likely I'd meet Geo again.

Storm Nordwind: May I ask - and please tell me no if you wish - what your RL time zone is?
Geo Netizen: Central US
Geo Netizen: My next responsibility is nearly upon me … so I must go … thanks.
Storm Nordwind: I hope to see you again soon.
Wol Euler: take care, Geo. It was nice meeting you.
Geo Netizen: \bow Pax et bonum Wol
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Geo Netizen: \bow Pax et bonum Storm

Geo left us and I took the opportunity to press Wol gently about something said earlier.

Storm Nordwind: "Wol Euler finally understands APAPB!" - now there's an interesting statement! :) Care to expand?
Wol Euler chuckles.
Wol Euler: well, I think I did.
Wol Euler: we - and everything else - are avatars of being. representations of it.
Wol Euler: no man is an island.
Storm Nordwind nods
Wol Euler: it all made sense, somehow
Wol Euler: and also explained the idea of extending compassion to all living things, not just people, because they too are Being.
Storm Nordwind: yes
Wol Euler: I had an image of somebody (Mr. Being) lying in the bathtub slowly raising his hand palm-up out of the bathwater.
Wol Euler: as his fingertips break surface we see them and think each one is a separate entity
Wol Euler: but it#s all Being.
Storm Nordwind: Wonderful image
Storm Nordwind: Now...
Storm Nordwind: what of the water?
Wol Euler: aaaah.
Storm Nordwind: Or is that some kind of illusion perhaps?
Wol Euler: perhaps it is taking the image too literally.
Storm Nordwind smiles
Wol Euler: I do think in metaphors and physical examples.
Wol Euler: but: if we were to continue with it, I'd have to think that water too is actually part of Being, that there is no valuable distinction between his body and it.
Storm Nordwind nods
Wol Euler: so I shoiuld extend compassion to stones and bricks and blades of grass too...
Wol Euler: (grass is living, bad example)
Storm Nordwind: Compassion, then, seems to be Being looking at itself.
Storm Nordwind: But there are many possible ways of looking.
Wol Euler: well, we approach the question "what shape is the universe" here. Is there a place of not-Being where Being might stand to see itself?
Storm Nordwind: It's a good question. Perhaps the answer - metaphorically - is that this place is fractal inside rather than outside
Wol Euler: perhaps it is taking too bodily an understanding of "see", too...
Wol Euler: say: compassion is Being grokking itself.
Wol Euler: I am that I am.
Storm Nordwind is too old fashioned for such words
Wol Euler: but not for Genesis, surely?
Storm Nordwind: hehe
Storm Nordwind: That is certainly a feeling one gets when one sees as Being
Wol Euler laughs. I'm having something of a minor paradigm shift here actually, having understood APAPB
Wol Euler: and connected it to "no man is an island" and that to Genesis.
Storm Nordwind: Such realisations can be life changing Wol. Sometimes even the memory of them can be life changing - as it can often be difficult to hold onto them for a while until they are reinforced with practice.
Wol Euler: I shall have to think about thissome more.
Storm Nordwind is tempted to leave Wol to it, to allow it to stay fresh in the min
Wol Euler: :-)

I rose to go.

Wol Euler: I should get to bed, actually, it's late and I was up early. I shall be grumpy tomorrow if I don'T get a good night's sleep.
Storm Nordwind: I would not like to be the cause of that!
Wol Euler: heheheheeh
Wol Euler: indeeed no. But don't worry.
Wol Euler: good night Storm, take care. it was a good discussion.
Storm Nordwind: yes indeed! And thank you. I'm off to the Kira Science Park to contemplate the nanotube - or should this be a megatube?!
Wol Euler: fractaltube
Wol Euler: metatube
Storm Nordwind: Doesn't roll off the tongue so well!
Storm Nordwind: Kiratube
Wol Euler: kiratube is good.
Storm Nordwind: uh oh!
Storm Nordwind: You might want to see it (work in progress) before you think it's good!
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler: I'm inclined to trust you, based on what I've seen so far.
Storm Nordwind: Well rest well - and perhaps see you same time tomorrow, or 6 hours earlier
Wol Euler smiles. Good night, take care.