2008.10.14 13:00 - Mountain Maps

The Guardian this session was Genesis Zhangsun.  The comments below are hers.

I arrived to an empty pavilion and soon called in reinforcements...namely Adelene and Solobill to come join me.

Adelene Dawner: All right, all right, I'm here, what's up?
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: Nothing
Genesis Zhangsun: as you can see here
Genesis Zhangsun: but now you are here!
Adelene Dawner: hehe
Genesis Zhangsun: So we are going to meet in three days?
Genesis Zhangsun: amazing
Adelene Dawner: yup ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: no T shirts
Adelene Dawner: Mark will be there! *bounce bounce*
Genesis Zhangsun: :(
Genesis Zhangsun: Yeah!
Genesis Zhangsun: I saw that
Genesis Zhangsun: was he planning to come before?
Genesis Zhangsun: Was this a recent addition?
Adelene Dawner tries to remember if you're aware of recent happenings re: Mark... but thinks she'd remember younr reaction if you had heard... ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Not too recent, we've known for a few weeks now.
Genesis Zhangsun: Are we talking about 3D?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Genesis Zhangsun: Right
Genesis Zhangsun: just want to make sure
Adelene Dawner: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...-_Art_and_Love

I begin to read the log and read something about autorecording which we are all dying to have up and running :)

Genesis Zhangsun: Oh wow is autorecording up now?
Adelene Dawner: He won't be at the meetup most of Saturday, which is probably a good thing... the rest of you would like to have some of my attention too, I'm sure. ^.^
Adelene Dawner: no autorecording yet.
Adelene Dawner: It's being recorded, as I understand it, but they haven't worked out how to get it posted to the wiki automatically.
Genesis Zhangsun: is he much mor fascinating then we are ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: Is this the first time you meet in person?
Adelene Dawner: Gen, *read* the *log*
Genesis Zhangsun: ok
Adelene Dawner: And yes, it'll be the first time.
Adelene Dawner: Hi Solo
Solobill Laville: Hiya!
Solobill Laville: Nice av, Adelene!
Adelene Dawner: Thanks ^.^
Adelene Dawner: I don't think we'll be seeing much of the old one now. ^.^
Solobill Laville: Oh??
Adelene Dawner: It became... inaccurate. ^.^
Solobill Laville: Has some metamorphosis occurred???
Adelene Dawner: :D
Solobill Laville: Hmmm...
Solobill Laville: :)
Adelene Dawner: Solo gets it. ^.^ :D
Genesis Zhangsun: sorry guys
Genesis Zhangsun: I am reading a chat log Adelene sent
Genesis Zhangsun: it is very long
Solobill Laville thinks maybe he gets it
Genesis Zhangsun: I just got to the part about Threedee
Adelene Dawner: That's the bit, Gen. ^.^
Solobill Laville runs off to the internet
Delani Gabardini is Online
Genesis Zhangsun: I am still reading getting tears....
Solobill Laville: Which log was it? Or your blog Adelene?
Adelene Dawner: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...-_Art_and_Love
Solobill Laville is reading
Solobill Laville: ty
Adelene Dawner: I maybe should blog about it. Not sure; not sure what I'd say.
Adelene Dawner: You can skip down to the part where Threedee comes in, Solo. It's about midway through.
Adelene Dawner: Start with the line: Threedee Shepherd is Online

I read through the log and I am as I say later speechless after reading about the intimate connection Threedee and Adelene shared defying our normal experience of space.
Genesis Zhangsun: Ok wow
Genesis Zhangsun: so I am speechless
Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Make sense now, Gen?"
Genesis Zhangsun: Oh yes
Genesis Zhangsun: So may I ask?
Adelene Dawner: Of course
Genesis Zhangsun: Could you describe this Love?
Genesis Zhangsun: You did it there in the log
Genesis Zhangsun: but is it "Love" absolute "love" relative
Genesis Zhangsun: is there a difference?
Adelene Dawner: Actually, when I use capital-L 'Love' it's as a name... standard written English convention.
Genesis Zhangsun: but this experience of sharing the same space was love?
Genesis Zhangsun: maybe my interpretation
Adelene Dawner: Not the-same-as, but related-to-the-fact.
Adelene Dawner: Pema put it well when he called it a side effect. ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: Ah yes
Genesis Zhangsun: It is fascinating how many of us...as mentioned in Solo in your email
Genesis Zhangsun: are having similar experiences
Genesis Zhangsun: of time
Genesis Zhangsun: space
Genesis Zhangsun: was this the first time Adelene that you had this experience of overlapping space?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Genesis Zhangsun: Solo you?
Genesis Zhangsun: he is reading
Adelene Dawner: But not the first time having unusual experiences like that in general, though there's a ton of backstory to that that I don't really want to get into.
Genesis Zhangsun: backstory to this experience?
Adelene Dawner: Not to this experience, no. To the fact that this isn't the first time I've experienced somethign like this, yes.
Genesis Zhangsun: Ah yes ok
Genesis Zhangsun: How peaceful your description is
Genesis Zhangsun: of the overlapping
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: and the way in which you could feel Threedee adjusting things in your mind
Genesis Zhangsun: it takes a lot of connectedness between two people
Genesis Zhangsun: and highly tuned sensitivity
Solobill Laville: back
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^ The main thing that surprised me was that he was able to 'figure that out' on his own - I'd kind of made a point of not talking to him about it before that.
Genesis Zhangsun: got stuck in typing
Genesis Zhangsun: I addressed some things to you Solo above
Genesis Zhangsun: figured out how to adjust?
Genesis Zhangsun: confused about what "it" is
Adelene Dawner: Finding me in the first place. Being that open to the idea.
Genesis Zhangsun: "finding you" which allowed the experience of overlapping?
Solobill Laville feels just caught up, kinda, in terms of the discusscion :)
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. That's maybe not the most accurate wording of the concept though.
Adelene Dawner: It's nto a search. It's a knowing, and a realizing that you know, and realizing that you can use the knowledge.
Genesis Zhangsun: thanks
Genesis Zhangsun: that makes sense
Genesis Zhangsun: that is very powerful indeed
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: Sometimes we can't get past the self doubt to know that we know
Adelene Dawner: exactly.
Genesis Zhangsun: I think this is my greatest problem
Genesis Zhangsun: yeah
Genesis Zhangsun: it reminds me Solo what you said about self loathing
Solobill Laville: mmm hmmm
Genesis Zhangsun: Getting stuck in self loathing that you can't allow Genesis yourself to know
Solobill Laville: Oh, indeed yes
Genesis Zhangsun: Going back to the similar experiences we all have been having
Solobill Laville: A slighly different beast, the core of self-doubt is perhaps more fear-based
Genesis Zhangsun: and self loathing hate-based?
Solobill Laville: Self-loathing is a form of anger
Adelene Dawner must afk for a moment.
Genesis Zhangsun: isn't anger often fear
Solobill Laville: ok :)
Genesis Zhangsun: just turned outwardly
Solobill Laville: Well, yes, that too, fear can I think be the well-spring for anger
Solobill Laville: Maybe it is all fear :)
Genesis Zhangsun: I think it could be
Genesis Zhangsun: about the similar experiences
Adelene Dawner is back
Genesis Zhangsun: wb
Solobill Laville: In any case, identifying those root causes so they can be cleared away is the real point
Solobill Laville: */e
Solobill Laville: web, Ade
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: yes
Genesis Zhangsun: It seems that through PaB for many the onion has started to peel off its layers
Genesis Zhangsun: like a thread came undone and now the whole scheme is unraveling
Genesis Zhangsun: very disorienting at times
Genesis Zhangsun: very isolating
Genesis Zhangsun: too
Genesis Zhangsun: to see reality and see that others do not
Adelene Dawner goes o.O at 'isolating'...
Adelene Dawner: well...
Solobill Laville: To step out of the race, it can be, for sure, Gen
Adelene Dawner: I get what you're saying, I guess. It's just that I've been in that position for so long that it's just normal now.
Solobill Laville: Right, Adelene, but for everyone at one point those first steps can be filled with fear of course
Adelene Dawner: (And I'm still looking for answers as to how to interact with munde folks from this position - it's not easy.)
Adelene Dawner: *mundane
Solobill Laville: Kindness works; and you are kind, Adelene
Solobill Laville: :)
Adelene Dawner: :)
Adelene Dawner ponders fear, that fear in particular... foreign, a bit, bnut not as foreign as some, maybe more comprehensible than she thinks.
Genesis Zhangsun: what is nice about the scheme unraveling is that I know when the process is finished there will be nothing there as there always was nothing because the "scheme" never existed
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Solobill Laville: lol
Genesis Zhangsun: :)
Genesis Zhangsun: did that make any sense?
Adelene Dawner: I saw a zen saying or koan or something once, that I'm surprised I haven't seen or heard more often since...
Solobill Laville: yes, and I feel like watching a Dervish dancing!!
Solobill Laville: :)

Adelene brings up the mountain analogy which I had been stuck on for awhile...

Adelene Dawner: Something like: When you first start to practice, there is a mountain. Later, there is no mountain. When you're done, there is a mountain again.
Adelene Dawner: (I'm sure I mangled that)
Solobill Laville: That's pretty much it Adelene
Genesis Zhangsun: AHA!
Genesis Zhangsun: I finally get that
Solobill Laville: Really?
Genesis Zhangsun: You know how many times I've seen that
Genesis Zhangsun: and not really understood it
Adelene Dawner: I read that as that we walk *through* the place where there is no mountain, and we know that we're done when there is a mountain again, when we reconnect with mundanity.
Solobill Laville: I just read an old log where you quoted that Gen (I think) :)
Genesis Zhangsun: yeah I've been stuck on no mountain for a long time
Genesis Zhangsun: I felt really lost like everything started unraveling and there was just nothing familiar around
Adelene Dawner: Me, too... I've come close to giving up on mundanity ever making sense. If that's even the point, which it may not be?
Genesis Zhangsun: I saw the mountain
Genesis Zhangsun: but it was only through what I believed to be a mountain
Genesis Zhangsun: not seeing it as the mountain that was really there
Genesis Zhangsun: then when I realized that what I was seeing was a belief, something I had entirely constructed
Genesis Zhangsun: then there was no mountain
Genesis Zhangsun: now I am finally beginning to see the mountain that was always there
Genesis Zhangsun: without the encrusted layer I saw it through before
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: and wondered why I had to encrust it, or dress it up in the first place
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Yes... Reality doesn't require defending... in fact, it doesn't require anything. It just *is*. ^.^
Solobill Laville: mountain
Genesis Zhangsun: Nice way to say that
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: that's a thought... so simple I'm not surprised I missed it...
Adelene Dawner: I see a *lot*. I'm very very good at noticing patterns. I quite often notice the thought-patterns that othes are using around me, *and* notice that they're unreal, 'encrusting'. The vast majority of my confusion is that I try to make sense of those patterns... but they're so loosely connected to reality, of course they don't make sense.
Adelene Dawner: Maybe I can safely just ignore them? Or is 'safely' a bad word there?
Adelene Dawner: another way of putting tat...
Adelene Dawner: *that
Solobill Laville: In what way are others' thought patterns unreal, Adelene?
Adelene Dawner: There's a saying that comes up on the rationalist blog that I read, a lot... "The map is not the territory". What you think about reality is not necessarily the same as what reality really is.
Solobill Laville: ...the finger is not the moon...
Adelene Dawner: And I'm pretty decent at catching glimpses of other people's maps... and of reality... and when they don't match, my reaction has been "but it has to be a map of *something*, otherwise what's the point?"
Genesis Zhangsun: wear it lightly?
Genesis Zhangsun: it is a tool but it not reality
Genesis Zhangsun: it is a tool to see reality?
Solobill Laville: hehe, but people are of course all on their own paths
Genesis Zhangsun: could u give an example Adelene?
Genesis Zhangsun: for example with me?

I was curious and took the opportunity to ask for some insight that others may have in the group about me...

Solobill Laville smiles at Gen
Adelene Dawner: I don't know you well enough to have any examples of you doing that, Gen.
Adelene Dawner: lag...
Genesis Zhangsun: ok
Genesis Zhangsun: hard to imagine without an example
Adelene Dawner: Even, ok, here's one.
Genesis Zhangsun: people "jumping" patterns?
Adelene Dawner: I'm very very good at reading animals' body language. I know that I am, because I can often accurately predict what an animal is about to do, even if I'm not familiar with that animal.
Adelene Dawner: There have been times when I've commented to other people that they should act a certain way to an animal because if the mood that the animal is in, and been disbelieved in various ways, often by being told that no, the person knows the animal better than I do, and they can tell tha the animal is in a different mood than what I'm saying.
Adelene Dawner: *because of
Solobill Laville nods
Adelene Dawner: It's pretty common in those situations that I turn out to be right.
Adelene Dawner: Which is reasonable proof that the other person's map of the reality of the animal's body-language patterns and meanings is wrong.
Solobill Laville: So, can there be different maps of the same territory Adelene?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Solobill Laville: ok, makes sense, because map does not equal territory
Solobill Laville: but if someone shows an ocean where there is a desert; problem
Adelene Dawner: yes
Adelene Dawner: and that's what the 'encrusting' is... inaccuracies in the map.
Adelene Dawner: Often they seem to be intended to be reassuring... marking 'park' down for 'landfill' perhaps.
Adelene Dawner: But if the landfill *is*, you're going to be in trouble when you try to go play in the park.
Solobill Laville: ah, there shows Fear its ugly head again
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Genesis Zhangsun: seems to depend what these people want to use the "map" for
Adelene Dawner: very true
Genesis Zhangsun: if they don't really care to get anywhere no point in telling them where the deserts or oceans lie
Adelene Dawner: hm
Genesis Zhangsun: polite to point it out
Genesis Zhangsun: but not to insist
Adelene Dawner: that ties into 'comfort zone'...
Genesis Zhangsun: until they ask
Solobill Laville: yes, change starts from within :)
Adelene Dawner: 'comfort zone' would be the parts of the map that are accurate enough to be useful... I've been to this park before, I know it's not a landfill.
Solobill Laville: Ok, hate to have to go, good conversation, but dinner's on!
Adelene Dawner: cya, solo
Genesis Zhangsun: ah ok!
Genesis Zhangsun: See you Solo thanks for stopping by :)
Solobill Laville: Bye, Adelene, thanks for sharing!
Genesis Zhangsun: and sorry you are not coming to the fest!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: Would be cool to meet you one day
Solobill Laville: Oh, me too...It will be great this weekend.
Solobill Laville: Absolutely, until then we can have drinks at Kira cafe. :)
Genesis Zhangsun: sure slugging back whisky like water and rubbing it on ourselves like massage oil

Here I was referring to the pre set animations which on previous occasions resulted in such an appearance, but no one seemed to get that so this is probably the source of amusement here :)

Genesis Zhangsun: ;)
Adelene Dawner laughs
Solobill Laville: hehe, whatever floats your boat, Gen!
Genesis Zhangsun: sorry I was drinking there this morning
Genesis Zhangsun: sorry
Genesis Zhangsun: So do you have thoughts about what meeting Mark will be like?
Genesis Zhangsun: do u feel like you already know?
Adelene Dawner: I'm trying not to have any expectations. I do expect it to be pretty intense, but in a good way.
Adelene Dawner: And in some ways I do feel like I already know... but that's just my map, I don't want to be dissapointed if the territory turns out to be different. ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed
Genesis Zhangsun: I think that is the approach to use with maps
Genesis Zhangsun: I have to go Adelene
Genesis Zhangsun: must go back to working on this grant
Adelene Dawner: ok, Gen. ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: deadline tomorrow
Genesis Zhangsun: see you :)
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: thanks for sharing your experience
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: look forward to meeting you and getting my you no what
Adelene Dawner: hehe :D
Genesis Zhangsun: I won't say but you know
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. What, three days? four? Soon, anyway.
Genesis Zhangsun: Are you staying around the area?
Genesis Zhangsun: over the weekend?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: Mark's picking me up in Philly on Friday, bringing me to the meetup, he has to go back to PA for a presentation Saturday but will be back in the evening and we'll leave sometime Sunday.
Genesis Zhangsun: cool then there is time
Genesis Zhangsun: to have one on one time
Adelene Dawner: plenty ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: that you are an oracle
Adelene Dawner: y'know what's funny?
Genesis Zhangsun: I really believe in you Adelene
Genesis Zhangsun: hmm?
Adelene Dawner: That connection... once he realized it was there, it never really closed, and earlier today when I was playing with the cards he felt it and asked me what that weird feeling was.
Genesis Zhangsun: :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: did you get a weird feeling when playing with the cards?
Adelene Dawner: Not 'weird' but only because I'm used to it.
Genesis Zhangsun: This will be interesting
Genesis Zhangsun: to say the least
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Genesis Zhangsun: See you Friday Adelene!
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^ go work, I should too. :D
Genesis Zhangsun: will do