2008.10.22 07:00 - Science and Faith

Enjoy - CH

Fael Illyar: Hi Cal :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Cal, Fael
Fael Illyar: Hi Corvi :)
Caledonia Heron: hey there :)
Caledonia Heron: nice to see you both :)
Fael Illyar: oh, Corvi is just a cloud, no wonder I couldn't see her anywhere :)
Caledonia Heron: well, I can sort of see you :)
Caledonia Heron: how about nice to be in your presence? :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: am I any better?
Fael Illyar: yes, nice to see you :)
Caledonia Heron: mmm, lots of grey :)
Fael Illyar: yes, I can see you now
Caledonia Heron: and, nice hat :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thank you!
Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, Maxine!
Caledonia Heron: are you still traveling Fael or home yet?
Fael Illyar: Hi Umbriel :)
Maxine Walden: hi, guys, nice to see you all
Fael Illyar: I'm still at Princeton
Caledonia Heron: hey there Maxine :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Cal!!
Caledonia Heron: hey Umbriel :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Umbriel!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I didn't know you were still at Princeton, Fael
Maxine Walden: hi, Ubriel, nice to see you
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Caledonia Heron: and you Maxine? still traveling?
Maxine Walden: no, back at home now, getting over jetlag etc, but moreless back in place
Caledonia Heron: excellent :)
Caledonia Heron: I came home terribly sick and I've been worried, hoping everyone is healthy
Fael Illyar: I'll probably start itching my sleep cycle a bit earlier now :)
Fael Illyar: flying on Sunday
Maxine Walden: yes, it was an eventful weekend in Princeton, much to metabolize. What was your experience, Cal?
Maxine Walden: sorry you were ill, Cal, that can really be a downer
Caledonia Heron: I thought it was valuable and wonderful to meet everyone
Caledonia Heron: I was disappointed to become ill, I am a far better conversationalist than you may have concluded :)
Caledonia Heron: I didn't get to do my best comedy routines at all .. ha ha :)
Maxine Walden: oh, thought you were very perceptive...but guess not much comedy...
Fael Illyar: Well, things don't always go to the plan, unfortunately.
Maxine Walden: hope you are better now
Caledonia Heron: well, thank you, at least my brain was still functioning :)
Caledonia Heron: improving, yes, thank you
Maxine Walden: good. Glad so
Fael Illyar: That's nice to hear :)

   

Caledonia Heron: what were your impressions?
Faenik loves wells!
Fael Illyar: very nice weekend :)
Maxine Walden: If you are speaking to me, I was quite impressed with the multiple levels of experience but also assumption; took me some time to take that on board
Caledonia Heron: what do you mean by assumption, I'm not sure on that ?
Maxine Walden: humbling to recognize how much assumption hangs around, by which I mean fantasy about who someone is, or how it will turn out...
Caledonia Heron: ahhh
Maxine Walden: especially when I have thought that I have given so much of that up, assumption that is
Fael Illyar: well, even with the fantasies, people tended to be like you expected. It was just the appearance that didn't match
Caledonia Heron: lol, it's still lurking around :)
Umbriel Levenque: yes...
Maxine Walden: say a bit more Fael?
Fael Illyar: talking in RL after a lot of SL conversation, the feeling is much the same. On a deep level.
Caledonia Heron: I'll mention again, as I did when we spoke, I felt more than a bit awkward to have such developed relationships with some people virtually and then to meet you in RL, I didn't know where to start, and by that I mean what level of discourse is appropriate haaving only just met you guys in person
Maxine Walden: oh, would agree. In fact talking in RL often dispelled some 'stuff' which might have gotten in the way...all sorts of lurkings
Maxine Walden: Cal, agree so much with what you just said
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Cal..that is the part that seems the most difficult to me, as well.
Caledonia Heron: I wondered if that was true for others, if that was a typical response or if it was cultural to my background and upbringing
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I suspect it would be anyway.
Maxine Walden: I think, Cal, it was/is universal. I certainly felt it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I can't imagine running up to Umbriel and Fael with all my silly pain hanging out in rl..though I have here.
Fael Illyar mostly just has this "not knowing where what to talk about" that she mostly has in SL as well.
Umbriel Levenque: yes, Fael. once passed the initial period of meeting in person and get used to being in each other's company in different appearances, it'd feel very similar
Caledonia Heron: ok Maxine, thank you ... I was particurlarly curious in our case as we started out thinking we had so little in common, coming to find we have much in common, but both being very respectful of each other's space in RL
Faenik: why not?
Umbriel Levenque: why not Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire hugs Umbriel....I am not sure.
Umbriel Levenque: takes time possibly... it's ok Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. Maybe more rl time than sl time.
Umbriel Levenque: yes
Maxine Walden: yes, Cal, I found that so interesting to discover how much in common we have; I felt a bit reserved feeling

you were not feeling well
Fael Illyar: Somehow, it didn't take me even a minute with most people to feel like I've known them for long time.
Caledonia Heron: should we meet again Maxine, expect a big hug :)
Maxine Walden: would love that, Cal, look forward to it
Caledonia Heron: lol, such complex dances we weave :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have to go. It was lovely to sit with you all.
Fael Illyar: See you later Corvi :)
Maxine Walden: yes, and not even aware it is a dance most times
Maxine Walden: bye Corvi
Umbriel Levenque: Have a good day Corvi and catch up soon again
Fael Illyar: it's always a dance :)
Caledonia Heron: bye Corvi, glad you came .... I got a little pinpointed there with Maxine, hope to see you soon
Faenik: ????^^

   

Caledonia Heron: did the rest of Saturday go well?
Fael Illyar: sometimes more graceful, sometimes less. Still, it's our dance :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, saturday went pretty well :)
Fael Illyar: well, except the dinner was a bit ... umm ... shocking ... at least to me.
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael Illyar: not used to getting a plate with enough food for 3 just for me :)
Umbriel Levenque heard a bit about that dinner...
Caledonia Heron: shocking??!!
Maxine Walden: Saturday afternoon was for me up and down, but mostly up....oh, Fael what about the dinner Sat night; I feel a bit responsible having mentioned the restaurant
Caledonia Heron: what, crazy raucous table dancing? :)
Umbriel Levenque: at least it wasn't 10-course dinner
Fael Illyar: just american food culture being a bit shocking.
Caledonia Heron: ah, over sized portions? enough to feed 4 on one plate?
Fael Illyar: well, 3, maybe 4 :)
Maxine Walden: ah
Umbriel Levenque: good value it sounds like
Fael Illyar: yes, excellent value, if you eat it all
Caledonia Heron: lol, good value for the dr who treats arterial plaque :)
Umbriel Levenque: heheh
Fael Illyar only managed to eat a third of the plate.
Umbriel Levenque: well... you must visit Italy Fael...
Fael Illyar: perhaps some day :)
Umbriel Levenque: it's never ending there... dish after dish
Maxine Walden: Fael was carrying a couple of take out food bags during the weekend.
Caledonia Heron: I believe Maxine was just there
Umbriel Levenque: yes Maxine. good value that
Umbriel Levenque: btw, there is something I wanted to bring up... other than food
Maxine Walden: I found italy just wonderful!!!
Umbriel Levenque: :-) can't agree more Maxine
Maxine Walden: great meals in art as well as food!
Umbriel Levenque: yes definitely
Caledonia Heron: fine food is a most excellent appearance by being :)

   

Fael Illyar: something else you wanted to bring up?
Umbriel Levenque: :D
Umbriel Levenque: um... yes not sure if it fits PaB but after reading a few logs, I've wondered if belief/faith and knowledge are mutually exclusive
Fael Illyar: nope, doesn't seem that way.
Caledonia Heron: that's an interesting inquiry
Fael Illyar: I know perfectly well that it's possible to know how something is and still believe the opposite.
Maxine Walden: very interesting topic
Umbriel Levenque: ah thank you
Caledonia Heron: it is possible they inform each other
Caledonia Heron: one thing that comes to mind is the teaching of creationism and evolution
Maxine Walden: anyone have an example for us to think about?
Caledonia Heron: one is faith based and one is knowledge based
Fael Illyar: but when that happens, you're usually not aware of the belief
Caledonia Heron: they can inform each other however it is important to recognize that one comes from philosophy and one comes from science
Fael Illyar: umm...
Caledonia Heron: part of the disconnect imo from the standpoint of public education is that they are both lumped under the category of science
Caledonia Heron: when in fact they should be approached from the two disciplines separately
Fael Illyar: is that belief versus knowing or creationism versus evolution?
Caledonia Heron: that is different Fael
Umbriel Levenque: um... empirical reasoning of philosophy is part of science I'd have thought
Caledonia Heron: you asked about faith and knowledge; my example suggested creationism/science
Fael Illyar is kind of lost if you're talking creationism and evolution or belief and knowing.
Maxine Walden: yes, agree with Cal, and maybe it is complex because we can embrace each of these in different parts of our brain/mind...and proceed as if there is no contradiction
Caledonia Heron: perhaps I took your question the wrong way
Faenik: could be

   

Umbriel Levenque: creationism - is this religion or philosophy? possibly I'm muddled on what 'philosophy' means here Cal
Caledonia Heron: we are thinking of the question from a different context Fael, please tell us your thoughts
Umbriel Levenque: creationism - belief/faith*
Fael Illyar would need to see what is being talked about first.
Maxine Walden: are you asking, Umbriel, about the potential conflict between faith and belief? Whether the mind can embrace both without apparent conflict?
Caledonia Heron: yes Umbriel, creationism is a set of beliefs grounded in faith
Umbriel Levenque: um... no I've been wondering about Cal's comments. In our current example that Cal suggested that creationism and science need to be approached differently as one coming from philosophical and other scientific point of view. Am I correct in understanding Cal that you think philosophy covers faith/belief? Would like to be clear on this first if ok.
Fael Illyar would say creationism is a set of beliefs grounded in pretty much literal interpretation of the bible.
Umbriel Levenque: that science and philosophy don't have common ground?
Caledonia Heron: yes, it is my understanding the philosophy is concerned with issues such as faith and belief
Faenik: indeed?
Caledonia Heron: I think they have common ground as valid disciplines that should engage in rigorous discourse
Umbriel Levenque: thanks for explaining Cal. with that in mind I can continue listening/understanding :-)
Caledonia Heron: and that there is some overlap between the two... however we should be clear that some things that are faith/belief based are forms of knowledge but can't be said to be based on empirical knowledge
Umbriel Levenque: sure
Fael Illyar somehow feels like the conversation is getting rather far from what Umbriel asked... did that get answered yet?
Umbriel Levenque: no... not yet
Caledonia Heron: this is a nice way to circle around to the idea of pab and ways of knowing .... the question of is there a way to apply the rigor of scientific empiricism when we investigate other ways of knowing
Umbriel Levenque: getting there I'm sure. examples always almost help

   

Caledonia Heron: so, please ask your question again Umbriel... and let us take another try
Faenik: ????^^
Umbriel Levenque: let me think if I can rephrase the question. one moment
Caledonia Heron: scrolling back ...
Caledonia Heron: I've wondered if belief/faith and knowledge are mutually exclusive - that is your inquiry, correct?
Umbriel Levenque: yes... seems to me that knowledge is something that is not readily associated with belief/faith
Caledonia Heron: to play both sides I'll ask, - can you know your faith or belief?
Fael Illyar: but, is that a question about the nature of the mind or the nature of mankind as a whole?
Umbriel Levenque: ladies... tough questions...
Caledonia Heron: lol, darn right :)
Maxine Walden: (gotto go soon, my friends, in a couple of minutes)
Faenik loves wells!
Umbriel Levenque: Cal - not sure yet / Fael - haven't thought in that terms so far
Caledonia Heron: I think, from what I have observed, that people can deeply know their faith or belief
Fael Illyar can't even begin to answer without first knowing what these belief/faith and knowledge you're asking about are.
Umbriel Levenque: it depends how one aquires knowledge... how 'valid' the process of the acquisition is viewed?
Fael Illyar: are they something in your own mind or something in your interpretation of the world?
Maxine Walden: maybe some of us had the experience of being confronted with what we felt was knowledge this past weekend, our 'knowing' about each other, as really based on fantasy/belief
Caledonia Heron: academic I think Umbriel, people just know stuff
Caledonia Heron: lol, good point Maxine
Maxine Walden: hey, guys, great topic, hope to come back into the conversation later. Better go now
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Maxine Walden: Bye
Fael Illyar: See you later Maxine :)
Caledonia Heron: bye Maxine, nice to be with you :)
Faenik: ah :)
Maxine Walden: yes, good to be with you all

   

Umbriel Levenque: yes... there are different types of knowledge. possibly I need to think about these first
Umbriel Levenque: (on my own otherwise we will be here for a long long time)
Fael Illyar: things you believe are things you act on.
Caledonia Heron: yes, different ways of knowing things ... to go back to my example... one way to know things is to test and replicate results like in science ..... then there are a boatload of other ways to know things .... but HOW do we know them, how can we point to the way we know them like we do in science? Very interesting question :)
Fael Illyar: if you believe the sky will fall if you do X and that it's a bad thing to have the sky fall, then you won't do X.
Caledonia Heron: I never do X :)
Umbriel Levenque: yes Cal
Fael Illyar: that's just a placeholder :)
Caledonia Heron: lol, d'oh
Fael Illyar: you can replace it with anything
Caledonia Heron: it's a joke Fael :)
Fael Illyar: :P
Faenik: why not?
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Umbriel Levenque: what does one do with knowledge then Fael? if one acts on beliefs?
Fael Illyar: we use knowledge to form the beliefs
Caledonia Heron: again, playing both sides --- it is possible to use beliefs to form knowledge, perhaps?
Fael Illyar: the critical part is what to accept as knowledge... Or really, what you believe.
Fael Illyar: you tend to believe, what you call knowledge, right?
Fael Illyar: although, that's not strictly necessary
Umbriel Levenque: um... not sure if that's necessary Fael
Caledonia Heron: even knowledge can change ... if we look at science again for example, theories about sub-atomics and cosmology are postulated and while unable to truly test for them, the knowledge/belief system of the discipline can shift radically
Fael Illyar: personally, I avoid believing things that are not necessary to believe.
Fael Illyar: I'm content to just remember that I read or heard that.
Fael Illyar: unless it's relevant
Umbriel Levenque: yes Cal so with that in mind, it's not easy to 'dismiss' certain beliefs imo. what's your thoughts?
Faenik: ????^^
Umbriel Levenque: A helpful way to look at things indeed Fael
Caledonia Heron: there are lots of options and for each of us it depends greatly on our worldview I think ..... even though we may have common touchpoints or agreements on many things
Caledonia Heron: we will I doubt, ever come to agreement on what those things are for each of us
Caledonia Heron: the people I have known the longest in my life still surprise me on things that I had assumed we might agree on :)
Fael Illyar: what I call beliefs are the programming language of the mind.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Fael Illyar: changing beliefs is reprogramming your mind.
Caledonia Heron: interesting, I can see that yet do not agree :)
Umbriel Levenque: an interesting perspective
Caledonia Heron: I can easily realign beliefs but don't see it as a reprogramming.... maybe it is a vocabulary issue right there
Fael Illyar: of course, there's also the programming that does the reprogramming :)
Caledonia Heron: lol, uh-oh, seeing a circle in our near future :)
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Caledonia Heron: rats, I have to go
Fael Illyar: guess the critical part is what reprogramming means :)
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Cal :)
Fael Illyar: this would be interesting to continue
Caledonia Heron: sure, you could also assign it words like reassessment, or integration of new data , stuff like that
Caledonia Heron: lol, I'll be here tomorrow at 7am slt :)
Fael Illyar: Ok, I'll see if I can be here :)
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Caledonia Heron: excellent, nice to see you both :)
Fael Illyar waves.
Caledonia Heron: bye