2008.10.15 19:00 - Levels of incarnation

The guardian at this meeting was Sylectra and the comments are hers.

Special note: Sometimes it seems especially difficult to offer comments on a discussion. This one seemed so to me, and I think it's because of the hard-hitting complexity of the topics discussed. I want to do them justice if i am going to cut into the middle of the conversational flow. My apologies if my comments are distracting.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Sylectra!
Sylectra Darwin: Greetings!
Sylectra Darwin: I am thinking that Linden Lab could have picked a color other than gray to show things were still rezzing.
Sylectra Darwin: How are you?
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm well, you?
Sylectra Darwin: Well but busy. Packing for my trip to the Princeton area for the Guardian weekend.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and read's Sylectra's t'shirt "let it rez"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Packing that one?
Sylectra Darwin: hehe
Sylectra Darwin: maybe I should!
Sylectra Darwin: Actually this was given to me by a friend in SL who likes to make things.
Sylectra Darwin: He was wearing it and I complimented him on it and so he gave me one.
Adelene Dawner (4m)
Sylectra Darwin: Adelene!
Sylectra Darwin: hihi.
Sylectra Darwin: You're a kitty today.
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Adelene.
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm.
Adelene Dawner: get used to it, the other form is unlikely to return. *purrr*
Sylectra Darwin: What happened to the bird?
Adelene Dawner: well, my avs have always been very symbolic, and you need to read the relevant log... hold on, I'll find the link
Adelene Dawner: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...-_Art_and_Love

An intriguing reference to another meeting – always good to read the other chat logs for these gems.

Adelene Dawner: Hi Geo
Corvuscorva Nightfire reaches out to scritch Adelene's ears.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Geo.
Geo Netizen: Hi again Adelene
Adelene Dawner: I ran into Geo a little while ago - when he referenced 0th life, I knew I had to invite him. ^.^
Adelene Dawner purrs at Corvi
Geo Netizen: Hi Corvuscorva
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, please call me Corvi.
Sylectra Darwin: Welcome, Geo.
Geo Netizen: Ok
Sylectra Darwin: Hi, Mongo!
Mongo McGinnis: hi
Adelene Dawner: hi, Mongo ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Mongo.
Adelene Dawner: We do log these meetings, Geo, is it ok for us to record you?
Geo Netizen: Yes, of course
Sylectra Darwin: Thanks.
Geo Netizen: I think I’m only here as an observer anyway … for now
Adelene Dawner: here's the web page, it has information about what we do here: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: don't count on it, Geo.
Adelene Dawner grins at Corvi. "They always say that, don't they?"
Sylectra Darwin: Actually there is no set program or curriculum, and you don't have to join anything!
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins back..mmmhmmm
Sylectra Darwin: I see a bright light.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Steve!
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Steve
Sylectra Darwin: Oh, it's Steven.
Sylectra Darwin: haha
Adelene Dawner: Big crowd, for there being debates tonight.
Sylectra Darwin: True. I hadn't thought about that but you're right.
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi, thought this place would be empty with the debate.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..they are incredibly boring tonight.
Geo Netizen: O .. the BBC will have full coverage tomorrow.
stevenaia Michinaga: yikes, Ade, we are starting to think alike.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: taxes, blah, blah, blah, terrorists, blah blah
Adelene Dawner: I don't bother, but Three's watching them. He'll be in when they're over, I'm sure.
Adelene Dawner chuckles at Steve.
stevenaia Michinaga: Are we sacred yet?
Adelene Dawner: Are we ever not?
Mongo McGinnis: Are you a dodger fan?
Mongo McGinnis: Sorry my wife want to watch baseball phillies 5 Dodger 0 in 5th
stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Geo, I don't belive we've ever met
Adelene Dawner: Geo's new, I invited him
Geo Netizen: Hi Steve I'm a guest of Adelene
Adelene Dawner: (and I only met him like an hour ago, but he seemed to 'fit')
stevenaia Michinaga: ..tries to behave for guests
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
Sylectra Darwin: Glad you're here, Geo.
Geo Netizen: Thanks ...
Adelene Dawner: this isn't an invitation-only party, really, Geo. Most or all of us found the place by just wandering in one day.
Sylectra Darwin tries to remember how she got here.
stevenaia Michinaga: I wouldn't know, Sylectra
Sylectra Darwin: Oh! It was Steven.
Sylectra Darwin: He's a really good PaB pusher.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
stevenaia Michinaga: It just seemed to fit you too
Sylectra Darwin: That's what you said at the time, and I remember thinking, yeah, this guy's trying to get me to volunteer for something.
stevenaia Michinaga: Yes, I'm the Being peddler.
Adelene Dawner: I literally wound up here by accident - I found the zen retreat, looking for a place to learn more about buddhism, and clicked on a rock that happened to be a teleporter to here. Pema and Gaya were just starting a meeting when I showed up.
Geo Netizen: Please forgive my ignorance but who is the Guardian?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: We all are guardians.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Sylectra is running this one, I think.
Geo Netizen: O I thought each meeting has one guardian
stevenaia Michinaga: But Sylectra is tonight's guardian, switched with me
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: 'guardian' is mostly just a fancy name for 'group member'
Geo Netizen: O ... I see
Sylectra Darwin: yep.
Adelene Dawner: the guardian-on-call is kind of in charge, insofar as we do that, and is responsible for taking the log.
Sylectra Darwin: As most of us are Guardians, that is the case.
stevenaia Michinaga: But there is always one of us here at 7 am and 7 pm, 1 am and 1 pm
Adelene Dawner: *ding*

Adelene's mention of the mindfulness bell prompts me to suggest a topic for conversation.

Adelene Dawner: hmm
Sylectra Darwin: Do we feel brave enough to dive into Pema's latest idea tonight?
Adelene Dawner: I could/should/will? write a new script for the bell that also chats '*ding*' like I just did...
Sylectra Darwin: Maybe some background first....
Sylectra Darwin: That would be good Ade!
Adelene Dawner: what idea? Did I miss something again?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's a good idea!
stevenaia Michinaga: New idea? Better look at my email.
Sylectra Darwin: Well briefly, and I hope he forgives me if I don't correctly summarize...
Adelene Dawner: It's half done anyway, I already have a script in my HUD that dings every 15 minutes
Sylectra Darwin: He suggested that if we are having trouble removing things from our awareness in order to play as Being, then maybe we can get there another way during the practice - by adding a layer. He suggests playing as Being playing as being playing as Being....
Sylectra Darwin: Let me look that up and see if I got it right.
Adelene Dawner goes headspinny
Adelene Dawner: On re-read, I think I've wandered through that concept before...
Sylectra Darwin: As an alternative to stripping off the being part to get back to
 Being, the "I" has another route: adding Being-as-Play on top
 of being. Much easier! Just let Being play being play Being!
 I, as human being can play as if I am Being, as if I am taking
 on this extra role. This is the core of PaB. Playfully adding
 something (make-belief Being) in order to then short-circuit
 the whole Being->being->Being game to Being->Being to Being.
Sylectra Darwin: Give this some thought before you try to comprehend it.
Sylectra Darwin: I had to read it about 16 times.
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: Did I see a "much easier" in there somewhere?
Adelene Dawner: from an old notecard I wrote: ...but autism is *brain function*, how am I supposed to get past...
oh.
I am Being. It amuses me, or is useful to me... same thing?... to use a brain of this type in this incarnation.
Duh.
Sylectra Darwin: Perhaps inducing this confusion is helpful to the "short circuiting" Pema talks about.
Sylectra Darwin: hehe, Adelene!
Adelene Dawner doesn't pull punches with herself any more than she does with anybody else. Less so, even. ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: brb, have to silence those crows
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Sylectra Darwin: Steven, they taste good with mustard.
Sylectra Darwin: That is, if you feel like eating any.
stevenaia Michinaga: there, they flew away (for me)
Adelene Dawner: no joking: do it by name, Steve. They're called "Flying Crow (temp)". Otherwise the noise will just come back when they re-rez

Geo introduces a fascinating idea which fits in nicely with the concept of playing as Being.

Geo Netizen: Adelene mentions incarnation … but incarnation is the move from 0 to 1 and 1 to 2, it is the core of being in each. Or am I missing the whole point?
Sylectra Darwin: How interesting, Geo. Can you explain more about that?
Geo Netizen: Let me think
Adelene Dawner: and then I'll answer Geo's question
Adelene Dawner: (or I can go first, if you need more time)
Sylectra Darwin: Or you can answer Geo's question and give him a break, lol
Adelene Dawner: heh
Geo Netizen: In SL we create an incarnation that, in a fundamental way, flows from our being in FL.

Geo later explains that FL stands for first life, or real life.

Adelene Dawner: "if we are having trouble removing things from our awareness in order to play as Being" is important. Some things, like brain function, are... fundamental. You can't literally remove your body from your awareness, is a better example. It just doesn't go.
Adelene Dawner: So instead of fighting that, understand it.
Adelene Dawner: 0th level chose this body, for whatever meaning of 'chose' makes sense.
Adelene Dawner: Just like 1st level chose this lion av.
stevenaia Michinaga: but body, avatar, lion levels are really a reflection of Being, placeholders for appearance and don't really affect Being.
Adelene Dawner: yup
Geo Netizen: But we cannot totally detach ourselves from the FL when we are in SL
Adelene Dawner: Being 'chooses' all of it, no levels. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: FL?
Adelene Dawner: first life
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles, thanks.
Adelene Dawner: Yes, and we can't detach ourselves from 0th life in 1st life, either. ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: It could be better if we were all the clouds that appear in sl before we rezz

Stephen is referring to what happens to avatars in Second Life when people first sign on. Until the specifics of the avatar's appearance fully load for each observer's Second Life application, they see a glowing nimbus or cloud.

Geo Netizen: Sorry, I like First Life vis-a -vis Second Life instead of Real Life … that belies 0th

Geo touches on an interesting controversy. I'm sure most of us who hang out in SL have been confronted by friends who don't “get” why we like it so much. So the question is, “How real is Second Life”?

Adelene Dawner grins widely at Geo.
Adelene Dawner: *ding*
Corvuscorva Nightfire: We could be... it's fine, Geo..I just need translations sometimes.
Sylectra Darwin: I like that you all are bringing up acceptance of a mental wall in the practice.
stevenaia Michinaga: FL, SL, all the same
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: When learning to meditate, one of the early and frequent mistakes is to actively fight distractions, emotions and all that stuff you are not supposed to be thinking about.
stevenaia Michinaga: Mental wall separating what, sylectra?
Sylectra Darwin: So to accept, and bend like the willow, is a more gracious approach.
Geo Netizen: Ahhhh … St Therese of Avila
Adelene Dawner: *yes*, Syl
Sylectra Darwin: Wall being a barrier to the stripping away of these distractions.
Geo Netizen: A great mystic with the same insight.
Sylectra Darwin: Whatever stops you from getting into that state would be the Wall.
Adelene Dawner: If we had no walls, we'd all be Being... and I think if that was the intention, it'd already be happening...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have wondered about that.

The group seems to be struggling with the idea of taking on a mindset of Being, repeating in several ways that certain levels or incarnations have attributes that are impossible to ignore. We became playful after that, I think because it helps to overcome preconceived notions and see new possibilities. In this case it led to a discussion about intention.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Why?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Why us?
Adelene Dawner: (which it is, in a sense, of course... but the other sense is 'supposed to', too)
Sylectra Darwin: Why not us?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Why play us?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Why not....not?
Adelene Dawner: Good question, Corvi, and I have *no* clue.
Sylectra Darwin: lol
Geo Netizen: An intention to grant total free will, no coercion or force involved.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Seems like a lot of struggle for nothing.
Sylectra Darwin: Since were here to play, experiment and learn, trying out variations can't hurt.
Adelene Dawner: Best approximation I've come up with is 'because it's interesting', which I'm sure is not accurate at all in some fundamental ways.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: just to get back to not.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Sylectra Darwin: Adelene, excellent!
stevenaia Michinaga: A very good summation, and interest--like love, for instance--feeds back on itself, usually creating more interest (and love).
Sylectra Darwin: By asking questions, we learn much more.
Adelene Dawner: hm
Geo Netizen: If we were given clear and unambiguous directions, there would be no play involved. We question and we learn by exploring … playing.
stevenaia Michinaga: Are you sure this is your first time here?
Adelene Dawner: I've been talking to Pema and Three a lot about patterns recently... and some of the patterns that we're starting to play with are 'higher versions' of things like compassion and love... not that those aren't very useful and beautiful patterns as they are! But I think there's a 'higher version' of interest that might be a close answer to that question. I have no idea though - haven't seen it yet.
Geo Netizen: Yes .. abut not my first time with these issues ... these are classic questions
Adelene Dawner: 'higher version' = less complex, but similar
Geo Netizen: “Compassion and love” … haven’t all of you experienced these and other emotions in SL? We bring them with us from FL … and, by extension… can we not assume that we bring them from 0th?
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Something interesting about that.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I bring other emotions to SL.
stevenaia Michinaga: what is 0th (level), Geo?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I wonder if they come from 0th, too?
Geo Netizen: Ahhhhh .... good question !!!!
Adelene Dawner: I tried dropping 'compassion' for a while at one point - just, ignore the concept entirely, act without thinking about it. Compassionate actions still happened... almost more than usual, actually.
stevenaia Michinaga: Much of what we do here is defining what we say so others understand.
Geo Netizen: By exploring the relation between Fl and SL, can we gain understanding of 0th … a question I have recently asked myself.
Adelene Dawner: And what do you understand so far? Or what have you guessed?
Geo Netizen: I’m not sure but am very interested in what you all think, you’ve been in SL much longer.
stevenaia Michinaga: I find the most interesting thing between Sl and RL, is when I meet people from SL in RL, they remain the RL image for me.
Geo Netizen: We have a FL … from the grounding we create presence in SL within the limitation imposed by the program … What does that mean for a presence in FL grounded in 0th?
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: *ding*

ThreeDee appeared in lion form.

Sylectra Darwin: It's ThreeDee!
Sylectra Darwin: Don't feel like you have to sit on the lion side of the table, Three.
Threedee Shepherd: Us post debate folks arrive :)
Adelene Dawner: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: Well you survived.
Threedee Shepherd: Sylectra, there I was in my car last week listening to Science Friday, and whose SL question did they answer but Sylectra Darwin's! I said, wow, I know that person :)
stevenaia Michinaga: ...smile
Sylectra Darwin: YAY!!!!
Sylectra Darwin: You made my day, ThreeDee!
Sylectra Darwin: I was so thrilled that I got named on NPR and wanted someone to pat me on teh back for it.
Threedee Shepherd: :)
Sylectra Darwin: I was practicing live blogging.
Adelene Dawner: [19:44] Geo Netizen: We have a FL … from the grounding we create presence in SL within the limitation imposed by the program … What does that mean for a presence in Fl grounded in 0th?
stevenaia Michinaga: did someone define 0th yet?
Threedee Shepherd: Good Job! Sorry to interrupt but I have been meaning to say that all week.
Adelene Dawner: Nope, but 'what first life springs from' seems accurate. Sounds like The Absolute, perhaps.
stevenaia Michinaga: pat pat
Sylectra Darwin: (thanks)

We begin to play with raising the levels or layers of incarnation.

Sylectra Darwin: Can we have more than 0th and 1th?
Geo Netizen: To oversimplify, 0th is to FL as FL is to SL
Sylectra Darwin: Like if we want 2nd and 3rd and 4th, can we have that?
Geo Netizen: Yes, to the nth degree.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: somehow I find that disturbing.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ...the 2nd, 3rd, 4th life part.
Adelene Dawner: Like my old av had a parrot pet, scripted, that could be made to talk... my av had a dummy. ^.^ 3rd life.

Then Geo asks the million dollar question for the night, which blew my mind (and made me laugh):

Geo Netizen: But is there something higher than 0th?
Sylectra Darwin: Maybe Being is playing as BEING.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs...the crow, Faenik
stevenaia Michinaga: When do we get multiple personalities?
Geo Netizen: O …. You haven’t looked into quantum physics much yet I assume.
Sylectra Darwin: No, do continue!
Sylectra Darwin: Interesting convo.
Threedee Shepherd: I took quantum physics. I fail to see its relevance to our discussions, except as a metaphor. Much as the computer was a metaphor for the brain in the 20th century.
Geo Netizen: I’m hoping someone else will continue …
Sylectra Darwin: Not my strong suit, but interesting to hear about.
Adelene Dawner: Geo, you're very close to some concepts we've talked about before... we'd like to see how your take on those concepts is different, and *us* talking doesn't do that.
stevenaia Michinaga: Isn't all we talk about a metaphor for Being?
Threedee Shepherd: I'm sorry I'm in late (and I watched for historical--or is that hysterical--reasons only). but what happened to 1st life on the way from 2nd life to 0th life?
Sylectra Darwin: Besides, the chat logs get boring if the Guardians talk too much.
Sylectra Darwin: We say the same things.
Sylectra Darwin grins wickedly
Adelene Dawner: True, Steve, but walking down *that* road turns you into Avastu. ^.^
Geo Netizen: We are looking for something more than metaphor … something based in fundamental reality, no pseudo reality
Threedee Shepherd: living is not the metaphor for BEING, I suggest, but the meanings we impose on it are.
Adelene Dawner preens, I knew I had a good one. ^.^
Geo Netizen: And I don’t mean SL is pseudo.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: But isn't it though?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Is it?
stevenaia Michinaga: agreed, but most of what we have are words.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It seems very real at times.
stevenaia Michinaga: (and pictures)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: As in, it has its own reality.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am HERE with you....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and the way I am here if far different than an IM relationship.
Geo Netizen: In a very real sense too.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: Stepping away from the metaphor....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's not RL...but it's not psuedo.
Geo Netizen: Very true.
Geo Netizen: Each has its own substance 0th, 1st and 2nd.
Adelene Dawner: All metaphor is useless unless it points to truth and reality - the map isn't the territory, but it can be useful to have an accurate map *of* the territory... but inaccurate maps are worse than useless.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to the innacurate maps.
Geo Netizen: Metaphors are approximations, not maps.
Threedee Shepherd: Let me explore a little wu wei to approach this topic. We say a tree grows and a river flows, but of course if those words are used to imply intentionality, that is not useful. Breathing is like that for a human, Blood flow is. Cellular regeneration is, and I ask, what ELSE is?
Geo Netizen: Whose intentionality?
Adelene's Bell HUD: *ding*
Adelene Dawner: A map is an approximation of a territory... hopefully an accurate one. Metaphors can be inaccurate, too.
Threedee Shepherd: A tree does not intend to grow, it just does.
Geo Netizen: Is there no intentionality?
Threedee Shepherd: I do not intend to breathe, I just do.
Threedee Shepherd: Not in any way that uses the word intentionality in a way that makes sense to me.
Geo Netizen: Am I able to intend something in SL?
Threedee Shepherd: So, I would say, tree growth IS, or happens.
Threedee Shepherd: Yes.
Geo Netizen: Am I able to intend something is FL?

A Star Wars reference finds its way into the conversation.

Adelene Dawner: 'intend' feels like a social placation concept... 'do or do not, there is no try', but you can say 'I intend to do that' to calm someone else down, make them feel secure in a chaotic reality.
Geo Netizen: A ... Yoda
Adelene Dawner: Hey, if it's useful, I use it.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Frequently quoted here.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Yoda, that is.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I feel like Luke Skywalker, sometimes.
Geo Netizen: Just an ackowlegment.
Sylectra Darwin snickers
Threedee Shepherd: Humans have intention. Automobiles do not.
Geo Netizen: I agree.
Geo Netizen: But in SL objects have scripts that were programs by us and therefore have our intention.
Threedee Shepherd: I am uncertain where the boundary is, yet I do not think protozoans have intentions.
Adelene Dawner: But they don't intend, they just do.
Threedee Shepherd: Certainly not bacteria.
Adelene Dawner: Scripts, I mean.
Geo Netizen: But if there are scripters in 0th.
Adelene Dawner goes to find a quote...
Adelene Dawner: "Reality is the temporary resultant of the struggle between rival gangs of programmers." -unattributed, Discordian
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am somehow greatly disturbed by that Idea.
Adelene Dawner: Leads to some interesting questions about free will, which is a topic we haven't spent a whole heck of a lot of time on.
Threedee Shepherd: Geo, I started right in. Hello. I finally politely ask if there is a main point you are pursuing here? :)
Sylectra Darwin: Ah, the Discordian!
Adelene Dawner: (I think Pema might bring it up once we've discussed the nature of time some more)
Sylectra Darwin: We broke into new territory! How fun!
Geo Netizen: Time is digital, not continuous.
Sylectra Darwin: I want to spend some more sessions discussing intention.
Adelene Dawner: Say more, Geo?
Geo Netizen: I have enjoyed this conversation immensely but I have to go to work tomorrow and its getting late … have to run … hope to philosophize with all of you again soon. Its been great!!!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: We're here every 6 hours around the clock
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Geo!
Adelene Dawner: 1, 7, 1, 7 SLT
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm glad you got dragged here.
Geo Netizen: Bye all
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Geo ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: So many new thoughts for one short evening, I am always amazed where our short conversations go.
Sylectra Darwin: grin
Sylectra Darwin: me too
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: I enjoy them.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Threedee Shepherd: It was so short I missed it. My loss :)
Threedee Shepherd: Read the log, I guess.
Sylectra Darwin: I'll endeavor to post quickly.
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, have a good flight tomarrow, Sylectra.
Sylectra Darwin: Thanks Steven!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: gnight, Steve.
Sylectra Darwin: See you soon