2008.10.25 19:00 - Kruft

Stim was the guardian. He sent me, Pema, the chat log, which I have posted here. The title is mine.

Stim Morane: The site provides a space for exploring "Being" using simple methods of attention and appreciation in ordinary life.

This was spoken to a passerby who then disappeared

Adelene Dawner: Anyway, Stim, life's going to be interesing on Wednesday.
Stim Morane: Why then, in particular?
Adelene Dawner: Remember that bible study group? The one my boss told not to come back? They came back.
Adelene Dawner: Wednesday is when I'll see my boss again, and I do need to tell her about it.
Stim Morane: Well, it's certainly a good opportunity to practice forebearance
Stim Morane: or not ... :)
Adelene Dawner: And yes, I do have to tell her about it, because if they're coming they need to be put on the schedule so the residents know. I just hope I can get past "they came" and to "they behaved themselves and apologized to me" before she blows her stack. Which is unlikely.
Bell: *ding*
Stim Morane: Well, Adelene, I'm a bit surprised that this is even happening.
Adelene Dawner: I was too - I didn't see them come in, I was getting out a video game to play with the residents at the time, and when I looked up, there they were. 'um...'
Stim Morane: Perhaps you represent a challenge. OR something else there does.
Adelene Dawner: mmmmmmhmm.
Adelene Dawner: Nothing else but me seems likely, though.
Stim Morane: Hi Stevenaia
Adelene Dawner: Hullo, Steve. Are you aware you have a pumpkin on your head? ^.-
stevenaia Michinaga: tis the season
Adelene Dawner: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: or something like that
Stim Morane: What is it, actually?
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Stim
stevenaia Michinaga: a hat
stevenaia Michinaga: a seasonal hat
Stim Morane: Yes, just joking.
stevenaia Michinaga: ...smile
Stim Morane: I could use a hat too, but somehow I never get around to it.
stevenaia Michinaga: your RL hat was quite nice
Adelene Dawner: Were you here last month when I was talking about the bible study group incident, Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: no, but interestingly put
stevenaia Michinaga: did they attack you?
Adelene Dawner: *snerk* A surprisingly accurate observation.
stevenaia Michinaga: it was very nice meeting you Stim, btw
Adelene Dawner: The group in question is relatively new to our nursing home. On their second visit - last month - they noticed that I was not participating in the activity, and decided to confront me about that, which ended up with my getting a 10 minute lecture, in front of the residents, about how I'm going to hell.
stevenaia Michinaga: why, because you did not participate?
Stim Morane: Sorry, I'm a bit sleepy ... thanks, Stevenaia. I enjoyed meeting you too.
Adelene Dawner: Yup. They assumed - rightly, by chance - that I'm not Christian, and didn't like that. I was startled but not actually surprised. I did tell my boss about it, just so that there was a record if they got too obnoxious and I decided to make a fuss about harassment. Boss's response was to apologize to me (surprising) and tell them that they were not longer welcome to come (slightly surprising).
Adelene Dawner: Well, today, they turned up again.
stevenaia Michinaga: oh, these were people not frrom the home
Stim Morane: And?
stevenaia Michinaga: intresting how they felt threatened by you
Adelene Dawner: And, the home's cat agrees with me that the proper response to loud annoying people is to find a quiet-ish corner and snuggle with a likeminded friend.
Adelene Dawner: Interesting but not particularly surprising, Steve.
stevenaia Michinaga: go see Bill mahr's new movie anout religion
Adelene Dawner: ?
Adelene Dawner does not watch movies or TV as a general rule... anything I should know that might make me change my mind about that in this instance?
stevenaia Michinaga: Religious, a very funny movie about religion\
Bell: *ding*
stevenaia Michinaga: no, it; will make you more self assured
Stim Morane: The bell is ringing my departure. I have to move on at this point.
Adelene Dawner: Ok, Stim. Shall I send you the log or just post it?
Stim Morane: But I hope this strange situation you describe does not recur.
stevenaia Michinaga: good seeing you
Stim Morane: If you have the time to post it, that would be much appreciated.
Adelene Dawner: I expect it will, Stim. They said that they intend to come again, and obviously won't easily be told no.
Stim Morane: That's appalling.
Adelene Dawner: Ok, I'll post it then. g'night.
Adelene Dawner shrugs.
Stim Morane: Thanks, and sorry ...
Adelene Dawner: no worries :)
Stim Morane: It's really so against the principles of their own religion.
Adelene Dawner: I know. That just makes it even more amusing.
Stim Morane: Bye Stevenaia and Adelene!
Stim Morane: Yes. Oh well ...
stevenaia Michinaga: you would think they would be the first to understand that
stevenaia Michinaga: bye
Adelene Dawner shrugs. "I don't expect much better from mundanes."
stevenaia Michinaga: not christian or ex christian?
stevenaia Michinaga: if you don;t mind me asking
Adelene Dawner: ex, technically. I was raised Lutheran but figured out in my mid-teenage years how dangerous that was.
Adelene Dawner: Which is to say 'more dangerous than helpful', and in this case it doesn't take much danger to overwhelm the minor helpfulness.
stevenaia Michinaga: you mean in the home?
Adelene Dawner: I mean Christianity in general, as practiced in this society.
stevenaia Michinaga: they do seem a bit intolerant at times
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: It's not black and white, ceratinly - otherwise I wouldn't be working where I do. The home I work in is run by nuns and owned by the Roman Catholic church. But it does seem to do more harm than good in general.
stevenaia Michinaga: well them it shoudl be asy for you to do good there
stevenaia Michinaga: thn
stevenaia Michinaga: then
stevenaia Michinaga: *easy
stevenaia Michinaga: my typing tonight
Adelene Dawner: ohhhh, you might be surprised.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hello
Adelene Dawner: Working in a nursing home... probably in any institution... is a very morally tricky situation. Even actions taken with the best of intentions can go sour very easily.
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at the purr.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: that is unfortunate
Adelene Dawner: It's life. There's a reason that Amanda advocates for the end of institutions in general, across the board. They're just not a healthy situation to be in.
stevenaia Michinaga: Amanda?
Adelene Dawner: Amanda Baggs... a friend of mine, though we haven't talked in a long time. (She hasn't been on SL and last I checked her email was bouncing.)
Adelene Dawner: http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/
Adelene Dawner: Reasonably prominent autistic activist, and institution survivor (though barely... she survived at least one attempted murder in an institution)
Bell: *ding*
Adelene Dawner: And she and I agree about institutions, though we've experienced them from different sides... it's not the people. It's the situation. The situation itself is unhealthy and leads to abuse, no matter how well-intentioned the staff are, beacuse it pushes people too hard.
stevenaia Michinaga: you mean limitied resources?
stevenaia Michinaga: and stress
Adelene Dawner: Yes-and.
Adelene Dawner: Stress, yes.
Adelene Dawner: And power issues.
Adelene Dawner: From several angles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire is still reading, enthralled.
Adelene Dawner grins at Corvi.
Adelene Dawner: You're briliant, by the way. I was reading logs earlier. Yes, lack of assumptions leads to overload by exactly that path. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire looks up startled.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh..thanks!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..it's the path I get overloaded on, I think.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: at least one of them.
Adelene Dawner: Common path for that, I bet.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...would make sense.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: to me.
stevenaia Michinaga: could you explain for me?
Adelene Dawner: I did see a flaw in the rest of the discussion, though - you guys kept going in circles 'cause nobody thought to differentiate between 'unproven assumptions' and 'proven facts'.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Professor Hancroft: hmmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: would you send the link to Steve?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Professor.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes pls
Professor Hancroft: Alegrea... do you konw what they are talking about?
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Folks. Come in and pull up a cushion, if you'd like.
Professor Hancroft: hi...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: have you been here before?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Alegrea?
Alegrea Ametza: no idea
Professor Hancroft: Alegrea and I are just exploring...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: welcome to join us
Professor Hancroft: sorry to interuppt!
Professor Hancroft: lol
Adelene Dawner: Here's a link to our web page, for you: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Corvuscorva Nightfire: with names like that you might have to come sit down.
Professor Hancroft: hmmm. any ideas on a place to visit?
Adelene Dawner: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2008/10/2008.10.24_7%3a00_-_Assumptions_and_Personal_Appearances
Professor Hancroft: if you would like to chat, we could go back to Maali's place... and sit and talk?
Adelene Dawner: (it's long, that was 11 pages printed at 8-pt)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: really?
Adelene Dawner: really.
Professor Hancroft: stay tuned...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
stevenaia Michinaga: I usually ahve my computer read it back to me
Adelene Dawner: I prefer text, and in this case was thankful to have something to read while that bible study group was doing its thing.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes..we didn't get to the meat, quite.
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, looks like I was there...smiles
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Adelene Dawner: Age... or, better, experience... results in a wider web of proven facts, which can be used to more accurately guess the outcomes of new or hypothetical situations.
Adelene Dawner: Those guesses are still assumptions, though, 'till proven.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: well I felt what we missed was that one is just piling it on, in another sense.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it is helpful for getting through the world..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...
Bell: *ding*
Adelene Dawner: The problem is that we tend to forget which pieces of data are proven facts, and which are assumptions, or perhaps were not proven as thouroughly as we thought - making guesses using wrong data leads to wrong answers.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's worse than that though
Corvuscorva Nightfire: the things that are "facts" that get you through life.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: even "proven facts"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: are a pile of crap.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: switch those last two lines.
Adelene Dawner: Same meaning either way, there.
Adelene Dawner: And I disagree... it's not that the 'proven facts' are crap. It's that they're not relevant in the way we were told they are.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, considers.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thats it.
Adelene Dawner: :)
Adelene Dawner: This reminds me of Elizer's 'something to protect' concept...
Adelene Dawner: basically his point with that is that without some strong, personally-meaningful goal, all the facts in the world don't mean anything.
Adelene Dawner: Though that's too pithy to really drive the point home.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: needs some breaking down to be digestable maybe.
Adelene Dawner: I can try to find the link.
Adelene Dawner: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/01/something-to-pr.html
Corvuscorva Nightfire recognizes the choice part of this...can't remember when you said or sent this adelene.
Adelene Dawner: I think I linked to it before, at some point.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes. you did.
Adelene Dawner: There's a pretty large amount of overlap between the kinds of questions Elizer's asking and the kinds of questions we're asking. I've been very tempted to invite him here, but haven't figured out how, yet.
Adelene Dawner: (I have his email, but every time I go to write, I wind up staring at a blank screen for however long.)
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles...hm.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: send him this log?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahahah
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
Adelene Dawner: Sending him anything would have to be done thoughtfully. He's got a bone to pick with religion that I understand the reason for, but don't understand the form of.
Bell: *ding*
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I see.
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I did too...about a month ago.
Adelene Dawner: I mean, we're obviously not a religion, but some of the stuff borders on it... so, yanno, careful.
Adelene Dawner: (Maybe sending him this log *will* be the best way.)
Adelene Dawner: say more, Corvi?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: more?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I hate religion, still, actually.
Corvuscorva Nightfire blushes at the heat in that.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Guess probably being a little pro choice feminist in a Catholic church can do that to you.
Adelene Dawner snorts. "Yes."
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..so many examples of wrong assuptions in any religion.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it frustrates me.
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: religion IS different from this kind of thinking.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm a little more willing to...suspend disbelief?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: something...than I was a month ago.
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: I guess that can be a good thing. Agnosticism, rather than atheism.
stevenaia Michinaga: then it's been a good month
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Steve..yeah.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: has been.
Corvuscorva Nightfire reads from the bottom up trying to understand the posting a little better.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: this does seem very like Play as Being.
Adelene Dawner: You should see the posts where he was talking about metaethics.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: o!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: wow
Adelene Dawner: Yes.
Adelene Dawner: Wow.
Adelene Dawner: Here's the main page for the blog; he's not the only writer but does post daily: http://www.overcomingbias.com/
Adelene Dawner: ohhhh, and I almost missed the post about 'inner goodness'. *reads*
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: reading "which parts are "Me"?
Adelene Dawner: yes :D
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ha!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: a link to metaethics right here!
Adelene Dawner: Yup ")
Adelene Dawner: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: The hour is late... night to you
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Steve :)
Bell: *ding*
Corvuscorva Nightfire: too late.
Adelene Dawner: Wow: Though I don't recall the bibliography off the top of my head, there's been more than one study demonstrating that children who are told to, say, avoid playing with a car, and offered a cookie if they refrain, will go ahead and play with the car when they think no one is watching, or if no cookie is offered. If no reward or punishment is offered, and the child is simply told not to play with the car, the child will refrain even if no adult is around. So much for the positive influence of "God is watching you" on morals.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah..money is a terrible incentive too.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: doesn't really work
Adelene Dawner: Yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: (me is speaking as a boss)
Adelene Dawner: It kinda makes sense that it would be - part of the message of 'I'll pay you to do this' is 'I know you wouldn't do this without the money'.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it works to sort of speak to people who have done what they already chose to do.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sort of says "yes!"
Adelene Dawner's tendency to ignore the connection between her work and her paycheck makes more sense now... ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but it doesn't work to create the choice.
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Geo...
Adelene Dawner: Geo! ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I already sent him the link, Adelene...
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
Geo Netizen: O Adele ... you're so sweet ... I like you :)
Geo Netizen: Good to see you both !!
Adelene Dawner: hmmm, I wanted to be a bit more centered than that... SL needs better small-movement controls. ^.-
Corvuscorva Nightfire leans into Adelene.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Geo Netizen: I find the lag in the system to be Infuriating
Geo Netizen: I just got the url so am looking .....
Adelene Dawner: Corvi, save this and read it next time you need a smack upside the head:
Adelene Dawner: Take a good look in the mirror, and ask yourself: Would I rather that people be happy, than sad?
If the answer is "Yes", you really have no call to blame anyone else for your altruism; you're just a good person, that's all.
But what if the answer is: "Not really - I don't care much about other people."
Then I ask: Does answering this way, make you sad? Do you wish that you could answer differently?
If so, then this sadness again originates in you, and it would be futile to attribute it to anything not-you.
But suppose the one even says: "Actually, I actively dislike most people I meet and want to hit them with a sockfull of spare change. Only my knowledge that it would be wrong keeps me from acting on my desire."
Then I would say to look in the mirror and ask yourself who it is that prefers to do the right thing, rather than the wrong thing. And again if the answer is "Me", then it is pointless to externalize your righteousness.
Geo Netizen: Yes Adelene .... you are perceptive ... these responses are based in us and not others.
Adelene Dawner: I was quoting, actually. :)
Geo Netizen: But still ... you chose to quote
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm.
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: scritches adelene's head
Adelene Dawner purrs ^.^
Geo Netizen: I would add a color … we chose to love or we chose to withdraw …
Geo Netizen: Oooo .... I love that purrrrrrrrrrr
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Geo Netizen: And if we choose to love we make ourselves vulnerable but ...
Geo Netizen: For me that is where friends like you come in …
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Geo Netizen: Rejection by others does not change what I have with ….
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Geo Netizen: or not rejection but
Geo Netizen: facing their 'issues ' which may be ...
Bell: *ding*
Geo Netizen: very raw and edgey
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes, indeed.
Adelene Dawner leans on Geo and purrrrrrs.
Geo Netizen: But with the support to those who also love …
Geo Netizen a warm feeling moves upward inside….
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles warmly.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Geo Netizen: I think I lost track of where I was :))
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Adelene Dawner hmmmmmms, and meditates into the oneness...
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Geo Netizen sighs
Geo Netizen: Did I say I like you guys?
Corvuscorva Nightfire leans on Adelene..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah...*grins*
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Geo Netizen: An intentional understatement ... :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Adelene Dawner: hehe
Geo Netizen: Anyway … we do have to take personal responsibility for our response to the world and other in particular but …
Geo Netizen: I had a cat onetime that love to lie on my face while I was sleeping …
Geo Netizen: :)
Geo Netizen: Where was I ...
Adelene Dawner: If you're trying to do right, and doing your best, what more can anyone expect, really? Or better question, what more can *you* expect of yourself?
Corvuscorva Nightfire snickers as she tries to snuggle on
Adelene but winds up pushing her over onto Geo.
Adelene Dawner: hehe
Geo Netizen: Yes .... but I was trying to say that in the effort we don't have to go it alone!!
Adelene Dawner: yes! :D
Adelene Dawner: That's part of 'doing your best', actually.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: good thing, too.
Geo Netizen: Good point
Geo Netizen: Yes ... not just good but imho essential !
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..mine too.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks that Lions help alot.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: winged or otherwise.
Geo Netizen: So … that given …. How’s life for both of you?
Geo Netizen: :)
Adelene Dawner: Good. Still rolling BF stuff around in my head.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods looking at Adelene with curiousity.
Adelene Dawner: But I think I'm making progress there.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah?
Geo Netizen: When we stop rolling BF stuff .... then I think we're in trouble
Adelene Dawner: Oh, just, I know *I* want to leave, and I know he doesn't want me to, and there's a decision that needs to be made there as to 'if', and then another set of decisions for 'how'.
Geo Netizen nods
Bell: *ding*
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: And a whole lot of other kruft to be dealt with in the meantime.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh...it's witching hour!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire likes the new word kruft...
Geo Netizen: 9 ?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I gotta go to bed....night Adelene,
Geo Netizen: o ... EST
Corvuscorva Nightfire: night Geo.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Midnight here.
Adelene Dawner: 'night Corvi.
Adelene Dawner: See you tomorrow. :)
Geo Netizen: Good night Corvi .... really would like to have some time to talk soon
Geo Netizen: Just keep me in mind ... ok
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at them both.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: of course, Geo.
Geo Netizen: Love ya both :)))
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am not usually on too much on Sundays...hope to see you Monday.
Adelene Dawner: :)
Adelene Dawner: ok, Monday it is.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs
Adelene Dawner: Though it might not be much more than 'hi', I have work to do.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I might see you all tomorrow too...
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: later in the week then, Adelene.
Geo Netizen: Ok ... just keep me in your thoughts
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. See you when I see you.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Geo Netizen: I'm off too ... been up late the last few nights .... need by beauty rest …
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Geo Netizen: so I don't get to looking even older!!
Adelene Dawner: ok, see you arond ^.^
Adelene Dawner: *around
Geo Netizen: _^..^_
Geo Netizen: I do love you guys ....