2008.10.16 13:00 - Leaving space for techies

The guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

I arrived at the pavilion on the hour. A group of four quickly formed and we bantered for a while.

Wol Euler: hello storm, adelene
Storm Nordwind: Hi guys
Adelene Dawner: *purr* ^.^
Wol Euler: oooh, a new av.
Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Adelene, Storm :)
Adelene Dawner: *chuckles*
Wol Euler: hello fael
Wol Euler: gryphon?
Adelene Dawner: winged lion. Small but significant difference. ^.^
Wol Euler: I see you've kept the pink and blue wingtips
Wol Euler: ah :)
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^>^
Fael Illyar smiles.
Adelene Dawner: Didn't want to *completely* confuse people. Plus, a half crow-phoenix half-lion does still have the phoenix element. ^.^
Fael Illyar: Phoenix element is important?
Adelene Dawner shrugs. "It *is*. I can't speak to 'important'." ^.^
Fael Illyar: :P
Storm Nordwind: A very expensive avatar to render
Fael Illyar: if you remove it, it isn't :P
Adelene Dawner blinks at Fael
Fael Illyar is just being difficult.
Adelene Dawner: Is it any better now, Storm, rendering-wise?
Fael Illyar: oh, now I'm the heaviest :P
Storm Nordwind: You're down to 2600 - still in the red
Fael Illyar: oh, I looked at the wrong number
Adelene Dawner: ok. I'm not removing any more parts, but it's good to know that taking off my flight wings can help with lag.
Wol Euler: that is a pretty impressive av.
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: Very good by the cafe fireside
Adelene Dawner: yes ^.^
Fael Illyar nogs noggingly.
Fael Illyar: more paper waste to he trashbin ... my tea drinking is generating a lot of waste around here.
Storm Nordwind: Off course Fail was taking tea underwater earlier - and that was a good place for a mermaid
Wol Euler chuckles
Fael Illyar blinks in confusion.
Storm Nordwind: And Storm is not wearing his political T shirt he had on last night! ;)
Adelene Dawner cannot *wait* for November 5th
Adelene Dawner is sick of hearing about politics
Wol Euler: yeah, me too.
Storm Nordwind smiles
Fael Illyar wonders if she somehow offended Storm yesterday.
Storm Nordwind's turn to be puzzled
Storm Nordwind: Not at all Fael
Fael Illyar: Oh, ok then :)
Fael Illyar: just a typo in that case.
Storm Nordwind: I'm good at those. Or bad
Storm Nordwind: My Thai Ping is notorious
Fael Illyar smiles.

I looked back and, yes, found two bad typos in once sentence. :( But then we got to business.

Storm Nordwind: So who has a PaB story to tell, or question to raise, or discussion topic to venture?
Adelene Dawner: well, I did some work on putting words around the concept of 'leaving space' (in the 'leaving room' sense) earlier...
Storm Nordwind: Oh. Please tell us more :)
Adelene Dawner: see notecard ^.^

Adelene Dawner gave out a notecard entitled "Leaving Space".

Wol Euler: ty, reading
Adelene Dawner: I don't think the log is up yet but Pema and I talked a bit about the concept at a 1am session a little while ago... I know what I mean by it but I'm having a lot of trouble finding good words.
Storm Nordwind: It's good so far Adelene! :)
Fael Illyar: somehow feels to me that these useful/correct mean the same thing in this context.

We were easily sidetracked onto techie stuff today as somewhere bell went off... verbally! (Please scroll down if that kind of stuff bores you. We stopped eventually!)

Bell: *ding*
Adelene Dawner: yes
Wol Euler: good lord, a talking bell.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: That's me...
Wol Euler: ah
Fael Illyar: talking bell?
Adelene Dawner: I may go ahead and install one here though, if it seems useful.
Wol Euler: [13:15] Bell: *ding*
Fael Illyar: :)
Storm Nordwind: If the Good Lord had meant us to have talking bells we'd have a built-in LSL parser and scripted ears! ;)
Wol Euler: it spoke the word instead of dinging :-)
Adelene Dawner: I have a hud now, that I scripted, that plays a bell sound to me every 15 minutes like the PaB one does... privately, not in the world... and I added a thing for it to chat the word, too, since some people here don't always have sound on.
Wol Euler: ah, nice.
Storm Nordwind nods
Adelene Dawner: I want to add another feature or two to this hud, and then pass it out... useful thing, it is. ^.^
Fael Illyar: Yes, that might be useful :)
Fael Illyar: except I didn't even notice the line :P
Wol Euler: yes please :-)
Wol Euler: ty!
Adelene Dawner: There, Wol - I'll wait 'till I have that one bug squashed and the rest of the features I want added before I do a general distribution tho.
Adelene Dawner: The green circle is the bell - you can change the sound if you want, just take the one that's in there out and add another one - the blue is an alarm receiver (touch it to turn the alarm off once it's received, replace the sound if you'd like) and the red is an alarm sender, touch to do so.
Fael Illyar: alarm sender? receiver?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: This actually started as an alarm clock thing for me...
Wol Euler: great idea.
Fael Illyar uses her cellphone for such things.
Adelene Dawner: Actually the 'clock' part came second - I wanted a way for Three to be able to wake me up if I was taking a nap. My computer's in the bedroom anyway, so I just scripted a hud that would take a message from an in-world button, and make noise at me.
Adelene Dawner: That worked so well, I scripted a clock to set it off automatically
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Fael Illyar: :P
Adelene Dawner: Three has one too now
Adelene Dawner: and got sick of having to TP back to the button to wake me up.
Adelene Dawner: of course 'wake me up' isn't always accurate...
Storm Nordwind likes the "3 has 1 2 now" :)
Fael Illyar: so, now it sits on his hud?
Adelene Dawner: sometimes I just have SL on in the background, or whatever
Adelene Dawner: the red button lets him set off my alarm from anywhere in the same sim I'm in
Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, I'm starting to see the usefulness :)
Adelene Dawner: very useful for getting Wol's attention when she's scripting ^.^
Wol Euler: :-PPPPPPP
Adelene Dawner: *chuckle*
Fael Illyar: well, you can be thankful it's just the same sim, Wol ;o)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Adelene Dawner: I *could* add an email server, let it work gridwide... ^.-
Wol Euler: true enough, I can sit next door and cam in :-)
Adelene Dawner: anyway, that's what it does now
Adelene Dawner: I want to add a way to turn the 15-minute bell off... taking the sound out will do that, I think (I'd have to check the code to see if that'd raise errors) but it's not very elegant even so
Fael Illyar: Pema's 20 minutes is stretching to 30 minutes :)
Wol Euler: perhaps a menu upon clicking?
Wol Euler: state-driven
Adelene Dawner: yup, that was my thought
Adelene Dawner: and change the duration and maybe make it random
Adelene Dawner: ours isn't the only practice out there ^.^
Fael Illyar: nope, not quite :)
Fael Illyar: 3 minutes and my cellphone will let out a *gooooong*
Adelene Dawner: And I want to add a button to make it possible to send a sound privately to another HUD wearer... not sure if that's possible, but I'd like to add it if it is
Storm Nordwind: So reason why not if it has an asset id
Fael Illyar: the DRM enforcement restrictions probably prevent that
Adelene Dawner: what fael said
Adelene Dawner: I'm not sure if llPlaySound will work without the prim having the requested sound in it.
Fael Illyar: I seem to recal it won't
Wol Euler: I'm fiarly sure it won't
Wol Euler: near-snap
Adelene Dawner: Worth the two minutes to check tho.
Bell: *ding*
Bell: *ding*
Fael Illyar: whee, two talking bells :)
Adelene Dawner: heh
Wol Euler: ah, I heard that one.
Adelene Dawner: The chat thing is something of an easter egg, Wol - it's activated and deactivated by clicking on the green button and holding it down until you get a message that it's changed. Just clicking on the green button will make it chime into the world.
Fael Illyar: oh, it was animation playing function that didn't take a key I guess
Fael Illyar: maybe the people making sounds weren't as vocal about their stuff being stolen
Fael Illyar: so, looks like you can send a sound :)
Adelene Dawner: sweet ^.^
Wol Euler: neat.
Fael Illyar: ... if you can get the key
Adelene Dawner: telepathing purring, here I come. ^.^
Wol Euler: heheheh
Storm Nordwind: So it does work as I suggested then?
Adelene Dawner: yup, Storm
Fael Illyar: Ah, Piet is moving... I'll likely vanish soon.
Wol Euler: sucked away into the black hole of RL.
Storm Nordwind: That sounds like a fascinating metaphysical link!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Which, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: Piet moves and Fael vanishes
Adelene Dawner: ah
Adelene Dawner: thought you might be talking about telepathic purrs
Storm Nordwind: The wand of the magician
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Storm Nordwind: I've never experienced a telepathic purr. Plenty of other things, but not a purr
Adelene Dawner: I should add a private chat message to the sound sender, so people know they're not hearing things... ^.^
Wol Euler: :-)
Adelene Dawner: (Maybe I'll come and purr for you one day, Storm. ^.^)
Storm Nordwind: You'll have to get permission from my fiancee first! ;)
Adelene Dawner laughs.
Storm Nordwind: Oh maybe that's not what you meant!
Fael Illyar grins.
Wol Euler: might still be true...
Adelene Dawner: quite!
Adelene Dawner is cracking up.
Adelene Dawner: No, no... good grief... *snerk*
Storm Nordwind looks up snerk on Google
Fael Illyar: :)
Adelene Dawner: urban dictionary, definition one, tone two.
Storm Nordwind: I got that yes!
Wol Euler chuckles
Wol Euler: I was going to ask "how would this conversation have sounded ten years ago", but of course it WOULDN'T have been possible at all.
Wol Euler <- amazed.
Storm Nordwind: Oh it would.
Storm Nordwind: There were plenty of chat services then
Adelene Dawner: 10 years ago =I was 17... I started doing online socializing at age 14.
Adelene Dawner: And it was well established when I started, too.
Wol Euler: hmmmm. I am a very late starter, then.
Storm Nordwind had his first website up 13 years ago
Wol Euler: I tried compuserve sometime around 1990, didn't get on wit it at all. Forums dominated by 14-year-olds :-)
Adelene Dawner: *chuckles* yes, well ^.^
Storm Nordwind: Plus ca change, plus ce la meme chose
Adelene Dawner: English, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: I spelt it wrong
Storm Nordwind: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Bell: *ding*
Bell: *ding*
Wol Euler: "meet the new boss, same as the old boss", as The Who memorably said.
Adelene Dawner: ah :) thanks Wol
Wol Euler: yw :-)
Storm Nordwind: "The more things chang, the more they remain the same" - one of many translations
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: Interesting to see the parallels between the last 10 years or so, and various renaissances.
Adelene Dawner: (Not that I'm a history buff... but I see parallels even so)
Storm Nordwind: History repeats itself because no one listens the first time
Wol Euler: yes!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^

So after a half-hour technical diversion, I tried again with Adelene's notecard - making space or rather leaving space.

Storm Nordwind: So did you want to discuss the "space" subject Adelene, or leave that till next time when your ideas are more formed?
Adelene Dawner: The ideas are there, it's just the words, and the best way to find words is to talk. They come when they're needed... at least, more often than they come when they're not. ^.^
Wol Euler: me nods
Wol Euler: I liked "React in the moment, and don't worry about whether your project will get anywhere. If it's meant to, it will."
Wol Euler: true in the Taoist sense, and also in the meaning of Gandhi's phrase "whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is vitally important that you do it"
Fael Illyar: yes, I apply that one myself when I can :)
Adelene Dawner: That's the part I'd have the most trouble talking about, 'cause that's where I am now... it's always easier to see things in retrospect or from a distance. ^.^
Wol Euler: giving space to your own ideas and projects, not just exterior-world things.
Adelene Dawner: Letting what arises arise, and if there's an opening for something I'd wanted, use it for that.
Adelene Dawner: What did you mean, actually, by 'exterior world things'?
Wol Euler: other people's projects, and their selves.
Adelene Dawner: ah, yes
Wol Euler: compassion for yourself, as it were.
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: That's what started this putting-into-words...
Adelene Dawner: Pema's doing an experiment of making himself stay in bed for 7 hours a night for a while - he said he usually only gets 4 or 5 hours' sleep.
Wol Euler: o.O
Adelene Dawner: I commented that it sounded like a form of making space.
Adelene Dawner: He wasn't sure what I meant... and I couldn't put it into words.
Wol Euler: sounds very artificial, somehow.
Adelene Dawner: A bit

4-5 hours sleep sounded like me too. I'd been advised by a trustworthy authority that my personal need is for 6 hours and preferable closer to 8. However, I wanted to explore what to me sounded like a rather odd notion. It was probably perfectly clear to everyone else however!

Storm Nordwind: I very rarely think in terms of making space. Certainly I've never viewed compassion in terms of space before
Wol Euler: un-crowding his day, Ade?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm, Wol.
Adelene Dawner: Making space can seem artificial when you start doing it in a new way - thoughtfulness certainly is.
Wol Euler: well, giving time is the ultimate generosity :-)
Adelene Dawner: mmm
Adelene Dawner: That way of looking at it depends on seeing others as 'other'...
Storm Nordwind: But so does making space surely?
Adelene Dawner: not necessarily.
Adelene Dawner: 'what happens happens' whether what happens is 'for' or 'about' or 'from' or 'to' you or someone else or some non-person thing entirely.
Adelene Dawner: words get really weird here
Wol Euler: /m enods
Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind: Sure
Adelene Dawner sighs. "Language isn't meant for this kind of concept I guess."
Bell: *ding*
Bell: *ding*
Adelene Dawner ponders metaphors
Storm Nordwind wonders what can be used to transmit such a concept

Adelene patiently persevered.

Adelene Dawner: ok, even back to 'making space for yourself' - if you're walking, and you try to put both your feet in the same spot, that's not going to end well.
Adelene Dawner: You don't have to see your left foot as a separate thing from the rest of you to know that trying to put it where your right foot is is just bad.
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps when you were learning to walk, you did precisely that!
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: but we learned that leaving space between them was a wiser course of action. ^.^
Adelene Dawner: The same way, if two people are doing things that can affect the other, and they have conflicting needs for resources (a form of space), that's not going to end well, period. It might end better for one than for the other, but does it matter who 'wins'?
Fael Illyar quietly excuses herself and slips away.
Adelene Dawner: cya, Fael
Wol Euler: bye fael, take care.
Storm Nordwind: If I am making a cake, leaving space between the ingredients will leave me hungry. They need to be co-located in order to achieve what I want :)
Adelene Dawner: yes... literal space isn't really the concept in question
Storm Nordwind: In meditation, if I leave space between my object of meditation and myself, I may drift away and not benefit or have an experience
Adelene Dawner: and leaving-space isn't always the right thing to do, either. But it's a good thing to be aware of and know how to do.
Storm Nordwind nods
Wol Euler: perhaps define space as "the right place" rather than necessarily "a separation"
Adelene Dawner: kinda, Wol.
Adelene Dawner: The idea of 'resources' is closer, actually.

A random visitor appeared and quickly disappeared, but not fast enough for me to miss his profile. He looked like someone who'd done a search, teleported to a search result, found it wasn't what he wanted and vanished. So I did a search on the SL viewer for play as being. Curiously my own profile turned up top, followed by some very odd sites and groups that matched what I'd seen on our visitor's profile.

Storm Nordwind: I wondered about our last temporary visitor and why he had come to the landing point
Storm Nordwind: Just doing a search for play as being, I can understand why now!
Wol Euler: related to his list of groups, perhaps?
Storm Nordwind: yes quite
Wol Euler: he must have been terribly disappointed.
Storm Nordwind's turn to crack up!
Wol Euler: "Where else can you play at being a Baywatch Punk?"!!"! our new motto.
Adelene Dawner: *snerk*
Storm Nordwind boggles
Storm Nordwind thinks it might be time to hit the record off switch
Wol Euler: :-)