2008.10.05 08:00 - A Stone Seeing Me

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    At 8 am, we had our weekly PaB guardians meeting. Since some of the questions in the second half were addressed to me, Pema, I have added some comments. I especially have tried to give a bit more background and perspective about Husserl, and how I see him, given that his name is not very familiar these days. In doing so, of course I had to chose particular angles. If anyone else would like to add different angles, please feel free to do so, while indicating which comments are his/hers.

    Lots of greetings, growing like N^2 (N**2, N-squared) for N participants :-)

    Moon Fargis: hi pema>(
    Moon Fargis: ups
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Moon Fargis: hi adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello Moon :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
    Pema Pera: hi Moon and Adams
    Wol Euler: ha, you cheated again.
    Pema Pera: en hi Wol!
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Pema Pera: cheated?
    Wol Euler: adams flew here while I walked.
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Wol Euler: hello pema, moon
    Moon Fargis: ^^/
    Pema Pera: Hi Quen!
    Moon Fargis: hi quen
    quen Oh: hey Pema! hi Moon!
    quen Oh: I tp Gilles too
    Adams Rubble: I guess he had trouble with the landmark
    quen Oh: so he can see we don't do scary things here
    Adams Rubble: Gilles was with us at the morning session

    Gilles arrived and joined the growing group of guardians.

    PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!
    Pema Pera: he may be more scary than we are!
    Moon Fargis: eek!
    Pema Pera: Hi Gilles!
    Wol Euler: beauty and the beast.
    quen Oh grins
    Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
    quen Oh: beauties and the beast than
    Gilles Kuhn: hello to all i havent see yet
    quen Oh: beasts lol
    Wol Euler: beasts, ctually, looking at moonä
    quen Oh: thats a nice one Moon!
    Moon Fargis: this one eaten too much chilli
    Moon Fargis: his mouth wont close

    Moon had transmogrified into a moderately scary form, in response to Gilles' appearance.

    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello FRiddle :)
    Adams Rubble: Riddle
    quen Oh: lol Minotaurus who has eaten red thread?
    Gilles Kuhn: i was thinking he was yawning....
    quen Oh: hi Riddle?
    Pema Pera: Hi Riddle!
    quen Oh: hi Riddle!
    Riddle Sideways: good morning everybody
    quen Oh: I mean.. (making riddle of greeting)
    Moon Fargis: morning :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gen :)
    quen Oh: hello gen
    Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Storm :)
    Pema Pera: and hello Storm!
    Moon Fargis: rehi storm
    quen Oh: Storm!
    Riddle Sideways: hi Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi guys
    Wol Euler: hello gen, storm, ridddle.
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone
    Glass of Milk whispers: Ahhh,, got milk!!
    Wol Euler: wb corvi
    Moon Fargis: wb

    A brief discussion about the PaB library project, and specifically the building where it will be housed.

    Pema Pera: While we are waiting for others to come, perhaps we can start with the question of how/where to put the library, that Moon suggested a few weeks ago?
    Tea ~ Earl Grey whispers: Aahhh, nothing beats a good cuppa
    Pema Pera: Quen volunteered to let us use her building then
    Pema Pera: but Moon had also some suggestions for a design
    Pema Pera: Moon and Quen, did you get a chance to talk about that yet?
    quen Oh: I showed Moon my skypavillion, we have not really discussed plans
    quen Oh: the offer to temporarily use the pavillion is still open
    quen Oh: could perhaps learn us what to expect from the library
    Storm Nordwind nods thanks to quen
    Pema Pera: is your suggestion to let us use it at your place?
    Moon Fargis: well yes, as nice quens works is, but i think it wont quiet fit into the whole design ob a library, it would be great for a large meetinghall for sure, so i started to put up a own design, i planed open rooms in the library for exibition purposes or just to sit down and reading,
    Moon Fargis: the rooms will have a view outside to special forms of artwork
    Moon Fargis: well i already made a skeletton house so far at the sandbox
    Pema Pera: ah, great!
    quen Oh: yes Pema, only if people are interested, mean time Moon could build his one?
    Pema Pera: yes, I think there is no hurry, so we could equally well wait a few weeks
    Pema Pera: until we have a place we are happy with as a more or less final destination
    quen Oh: thats ok
    Pema Pera: probably less confusing that way than having different adresses and changing again
    Pema Pera: But thank you for your offer, Quen!
    genesis Zhangsun: What kind of works will the library include? Is it only for Buddhist works?
    Pema Pera: (waiting for Moon to respond, given it was his idea)
    Moon Fargis: no it will contain stuff from alll over the world wich connects to pab, psychologist things and maybe somem odern arts but ofcourse buddhist artwork will be at first there becasue i simply collected more of it already:)
    genesis Zhangsun: Wonderful and can anyone make contributions?

    Riddle responded to Fael's entry and somehow foreshadowed Gaya's.

    Riddle Sideways: Hi Fael and Gaya
    Moon Fargis: sure!
    Pema Pera: Yes, and science as well, science related relevant material
    Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
    quen Oh: hey Fael!
    Moon Fargis: hi fael, gaya
    Pema Pera: Hello, Fael
    Wol Euler: hello fael
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Fael.
    Pema Pera: Is Gaya here?
    Fael Illyar can't see her.
    quen Oh: don't see her
    Pema Pera: me neither
    Moon Fargis: ah duno, its almost a reflec to name those two :)
    Pema Pera: It's a Riddle!
    Moon Fargis: relfex
    quen Oh: though she is online
    Moon Fargis: reflex
    Pema Pera: Riddle started the rumor
    Pema Pera: :)
    Riddle Sideways likes to start things
    Moon Fargis: so those who are intrested to see can follow me after the meeting to the sandbox
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya, fael
    Riddle Sideways starts that there she is
    quen Oh: hey Gaya!
    Pema Pera: Hi Gaya!
    Moon Fargis: rehi gaya:)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: hello gaya

    Moon became a teddy bear, and Albertus joined us as well.

    Fael Illyar: Ah Moon went into cute mode :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is kinda glad.
    Pema Pera: Would anyone like to bring up something, concerning our PaB explorations?
    Pema Pera: any impression of last week, or general questions of observations?
    Moon Fargis notices the "..." flying around in the rooms
    Riddle Sideways: happy half-birthday
    Pema Pera: Hi Albertus!
    quen Oh: hello
    Pema Pera: come join us
    Moon Fargis: hi albertus
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hello Albertus.
    Wol Euler: hello albertus
    Albertus Urvilan: Good morning
    Pema Pera: Albertus, this is where we gather for our weekly guardians' meeting
    Pema Pera: but anyone is welcome to join us
    quen Oh: ah wb Gilles
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wb giles.
    Albertus Urvilan: Thanks you
    Moon Fargis: eek them onster is back
    quen Oh winks to Faenik
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Riddle Sideways: Moon is safe behind Storm
    Fael Illyar hugs moon.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles

    Given that nobody responded to my suggesting to talk about the PaB explorations, I invited our two guests to speak up.

    Pema Pera: Albertus and Gilles, the regular guardians seem to be unusually quiet today . . if you have any observations, suggestions, questions about PaB, feel free to speak up!
    Gilles Kuhn: tk corvu ; a monster where moon ?
    Gilles Kuhn: ok pema
    Albertus Urvilan: Thank you ... I'll be happy to observe and see where the tread is going
    quen Oh: he turned into cuddlybear, within several minutes in our presence...
    Pema Pera: I can only see where Moon is going right now :)
    Faenik: heheh
    Albertus Urvilan: thread
    Moon Fargis: (lag)
    Moon Fargis: so i think pab runs well atm
    Fael Illyar: runs pretty well, yes.
    Riddle Sideways: most of us are now so comfortable to talk about anything and there are so many personal and sharing threads to explore
    Riddle Sideways: that is all going well
    Fael Illyar: Although, I'm slightly surprised the blog is still going, given that wiki has had all the logs for well over 2 months now.
    Pema Pera: I really like the way you comment your chat logs, Riddle
    Pema Pera: one of the more entertaining styles!
    Fael Illyar: Of course, there's the bonus that having it going sort of keeps watch on which logs are there.
    Pema Pera: Well, fael, it depends

    Gilles took me up on the suggestion I had made, with an interesting question about phenomenology and PaB. I first finished responding to Fael and Corvi brought up a good suggestion concerning the wiki.

    Gilles Kuhn: well so pema as indeed i dont see a lot of orgasitional problem beig discussed by you now i have a question what the difference between PaB and phenomenology particulary the phenomenological concept of epoche ?
    Pema Pera: We don't know yet what the wiki will eventually turn into
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: What is epoche?
    Pema Pera: as long as the wiki is not complete, with older logs, I prefer to have at least one place where all the logs are bundled
    Pema Pera: (response to Fael)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and can we put a blog roll on the wiki?
    Fael Illyar: ah of course, that still needs doing
    Pema Pera: what is a blog role?
    Wol Euler: good idea, we can add that.
    Pema Pera: roll?
    Gilles Kuhn: (sorry began to write my question before you begin in earnest apparently....;))
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a link to all the blogs....
    Pema Pera: ah, sure, great idea
    Wol Euler: a list of other blogs, URLS, places of common interest ...
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: np, GIlles, interesting question
    Pema Pera: So for Gilles question,
    Pema Pera: phenomenology is one approach, yes
    Pema Pera: completely compatible with PaB
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: please start with definitions?

    As for Gilles question about phenomenology, a school of philosophy that started about a hundred years ago in Europe, it was quite a challenge to respond in such a way that we would not lose most of those present.

    Gilles Kuhn: epoche is a kind of abstention to put yourself in a subject/object perspective
    Corvuscorva Nightfire pulls out the dictionary.
    Pema Pera: phenomenology is a school of philosophy that starts with what appears -- clear overlap with the APAPB idea
    Pema Pera: Appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being
    Pema Pera: But PaB is not specifically any religious or philosophical system
    Pema Pera: though it happily can dance with all of them
    Pema Pera: each in their own way -- as long as it is firmly grounded in real experience
    Pema Pera: that's the rub
    Gilles Kuhn: well pheno is a methodology well in his husserlian origin and it seemed to me that youre idea where very close
    Gilles Kuhn: were*
    Pema Pera: Phenomenology is one of the most (only?) experimental forms of philosophy
    Pema Pera: so not surprising it is close to PaB which is based on direct experience
    Pema Pera: direct seeing
    Pema Pera: direct being
    Gilles Kuhn: mmmh dialectic and logic are too
    Pema Pera: logic is useful to clear a path in the woods
    Pema Pera: but as such not enough, I think; more like an empty plate?
    Gilles Kuhn: yes but logical theorems can be innovative to say the least look at Godel or cantor theorems
    Faenik: could be
    Pema Pera: oh sure, but to see reality for what it is, that needs more than just logic -- but logic can help clean dirty windows, making you realize that some ideas were false or premature
    Gilles Kuhn: and the phenomenology indeed is about the supression of the subject/object distinction advocating to a direct aprehension of the phenomena
    quen Oh: logic is experimental reasoning, phenomenology experimental experiencing?
    Moon Fargis throws away his burning dict
    Albertus Urvilan: I suppose it could be taken as only "theoretical" -- ie. a "bracketing"of the world, like a soliloquy in a play, where we are momentarily not bound by time. But it is more interesting to take it as an experiential state.

    Exactly. The epoche, as Husserl defined it, is a kind of laboratory tool. It is rather unusual for a philosopher to introduce such an experimental tool, given that philosophy typical focuses more on reasoning, from logic to speculation.
    However, since most of us present were not familiar with either phenomenology or the epoche, we could not hope to explain what they were by just giving definitions -- which is why I suggested to start with concrete examples.

    Pema Pera: yes, but to make this come alive to most of us here who are not familiar with the topic, we better introduce some examples
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Pema Pera: yes, Albertus
    Pema Pera: The main point of the "epoche" which Gilles mentioned is a suspension of judgment
    Albertus Urvilan: As one zen master says, "not knowing is most intimate." The state of being where we are looking at the world in an unfettered and fresh way.
    Albertus Urvilan: Sometimes termed "original face".
    Gilles Kuhn: but that can easily lead to radical idealism even solipsism in methodology in fact but thats contrary to Husserl original project that was of finding a rationnal methodology to replace the scientific methodology that he rightly (i think) criticized
    Gilles Kuhn: indeed pema
    Pema Pera: yes, this fresh way is what I like to call "appearance" as such, sheer appearance, to give it a term, Albertus
    Pema Pera: yes, Gilles, we have to DO it and to BE it not to reason about it only
    Pema Pera: Husserl would have enjoyed coming to PaB for sure :-)
    Gilles Kuhn: well thats the phen idea i dont say i endorse them i fact i dont
    Pema Pera: what do you not like about them?
    Pema Pera does not endorse any system, by the way :-)
    Gilles Kuhn: i accept the scientifical methodology criticism but the solution of husserl was a failure
    Faenik: indeed?
    Albertus Urvilan: Another important aspect is that this "not knowing" doesn't mean that we can't come to understanding. Just that we retain a playful and investigating mind.

    Yes, that is the core idea of Play as Being, summarized neatly. As far the judgment of the philosophical establishment that Husserl's solution was a "failure", I for one beg to differ.

    Pema Pera: (I don't ;-) failure is in the eye of the beholder, but that's a big topic)
    Moon Fargis looks at wol
    Gilles Kuhn: all the pheno movement recreated a sofisticated metaphysic like discourse entirely out of touch with the empirical world
    Pema Pera: well, most people here don't have that background, Gilles
    Pema Pera: so you will have to be specific to keep the topic interesting for everyone
    Pema Pera: concrete examples will help
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and definitions.
    Gilles Kuhn: well the main problem is that the epoche and the denial of subject /object distinction wich imply the definition of pheno : "there is no object there is no subject there are only phenomena"
    Pema Pera: denial?
    quen Oh thinks phenomenology or PaB approach is an interesting exploration of consciousness as experienced from the first-person point of view...
    Gilles Kuhn: rapidly lead to radical idealism
    Gaya Ethaniel wishes she paid more attention to the weekly philosophy class at high school
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: I'm afraid you're losing most of us, Gilles . . . .
    Gilles Kuhn: sorry
    Pema Pera: those who haven't studied phenomenology in detail
    Albertus Urvilan: The main problem, as I see it, is how that relates to living joyfully and peacefully and encouraging that in others.
    Adams Rubble wishes she could ask Fred
    Pema Pera: but we can try to start from scratch, GIlles
    Gilles Kuhn: my question was to know if pheno and pab where close
    Pema Pera: the topic is fascinating
    Pema Pera: ah!
    quen Oh: why would an exploration about the workings of consciousness lead to radical idealism Gilles?
    Gaya Ethaniel: bear with me Giles. will get there
    Fael Illyar: that sounds very close to the "everything is illusion" claim.

    A central problem in a discussion of a philosophical school is that there are two points of entry: you can start with the descriptions given by the school and try to analyze those descriptions; or you can start by trying to see what the founder and at least some of the followers saw and then to find your own descriptions.
    Obviously, the second approach can lead you completely astray if a school did not have a clear vision of at least one aspect of reality, but in Husserl's case it is not so hard to see distinct parallels with contemplative approaches. The problem is that few people are really intimately familiar with both actual contemplative experience and actual experience of working with the epoche. Without both, judging only from descriptions, it is of course tempting to consider Husserl's approach a failure. With both, judging Husserl becomes more nuanced: one can recognize that he failed to reach a wide public, and yet one can recognize the great potential that his method had and still has.

    Pema Pera: My answer is: Husserl clear saw something, something PaB like -- easy to recognize once you see it too -- and he tried to put it into the language of his day. Now if you don't see that, or don't know what he is trying to articulate, it all becomes a morass quite quickly -- and logic then won't help you
    Pema Pera: so if we talk about it in PaB we have to start with seeing
    Pema Pera: what did Husserl see?
    Gilles Kuhn: i say pheno often lead to that or to a equivalent of that deconstructivism is an heir t pheno tradition but quen there we are too technical
    Pema Pera: what do we see when we do PaB or try epoche?
    Pema Pera: dont' say Gilles, do please
    quen Oh: (indeed, the start from scratch is more promising)
    Pema Pera: can you give an example here
    Pema Pera: to share your understanding
    Pema Pera: without specialist terms?
    Wol Euler gives moon a hug.
    Gilles Kuhn: well if you read levinas or merleau ponty you dont read more philosophy you read poetry the problem is that the methodology lead to a very subjective and hence not clear nor rationnaly debatable form of argumentation
    Corvuscorva Nightfire tickles moon's belly
    Pema Pera: Gilles, that is not giving an example . . . .
    Pema Pera: can't you start with the everyday world?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Edmund Gustav Albrecht Husserl (1859 – 1938)... known as the father of phenomenology... giving weight to the notion that experience is the source of all knowledge... (wikipedia)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Phenomenology is the study of phenomena (from Greek, meaning "that which appears") and how they appear to us from a first-person perspective. In modern times, it usually refers to the philosophy developed by Edmund Husserl, which is primarily concerned with consciousness and its structures (the ways in which phenomena appear to us).
    quen Oh: wasn't Husserl seeing a difference between the outside world and the act of consciousness ?
    Wol Euler: "I see therefore I am"?
    Gilles Kuhn: oh yes for example pheno has arrived to phrase like when i see a stone the stone see me too

    Gilles' example is an intriguing one, with clear resonances with PaB. This was probably the first point in the discussion where a direct connection could have been made, as a concrete answer to Gilles' original question. However, something else was afoot . . . our good old onigokko dance!

    quen Oh: the outside world presenting 'phenomena' to something which is our consciousness?
    Gaya Ethaniel: so one can question an existence of something when one doesn't experience or see... does it have to be experienced to be able to exist?
    Moon Fargis: there is one word wich explains it all... and wol knows it :)
    Wol Euler laughs
    Gaya Ethaniel eagerly anticipates...
    Wol Euler: onigokko
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles....
    Fael Illyar falls down laughing.
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Riddle Sideways giggles
    Pema Pera: interesting phenomena, don't you think, Gilles :-)
    Wol Euler: stop
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Wol Euler clears her throat. You were saying?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ty, Wol!
    Albertus Urvilan: It's a fine presentation, but Husserl didn't go as far with it as a poet can go. As Mumon wrote, at a certain point in experience, "insied and outside become one". Then what! We dance in glee!!!
    quen Oh: what was that? lol
    Gilles Kuhn: yes interacting with bach give curious result.......
    Gaya Ethaniel: well... so in regards to 'Being', it 'exists' whether I experience or not
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

    I try to take up the example that Gilles gave before the dance broke out. However, we somehow didn't get to focus on the concrete example itself.

    Pema Pera: to come back to "when I see a stone" -- where is the I? where is the stone-as-a-thing? First of all there is seeing, or the appearance of seeing . . . .
    Wol Euler sits Moon up on her knee.
    Gilles Kuhn: but remember i wanted not to make a presentation of pheno i wanted only to know if there was a fundamental difference between pheno and pab
    Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders what Giles mean by PaB...
    Pema Pera: well, PaB is happy to borrow from and resonate with all traditions that are firmly rooted in experience: phenomenology included
    Faenik: indeed?
    quen Oh: well the comparison is interesting
    Pema Pera: and it is an interesting topic, for sure
    Gilles Kuhn: yes pema thats indeed pheno type of reasoning but so pab is about immediate phenomenological experience i.e. subjective one ?
    Pema Pera: PaB is not something you can capture in a little box or category
    Fael Illyar ponders 'Do we have agreed upon texts that we could compare with phenomenology?'
    Albertus Urvilan: I'm not well-versed, but I would say that there's a difference in that Husserl sticks with subject and object. Mystics like Buber (with "I/Thou") take it further.
    Pema Pera: although PaB loves to play with boxes :)
    Moon Fargis: your reality, your experience
    Fael Illyar can't recall any.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Albertus Urvilan: Anyone interested in the present moment is a mystic!!
    Pema Pera: :)
    Albertus Urvilan: Eventually.
    Fael Illyar: That's what drew me in. No dogma :)
    Moon Fargis: is there a present ?
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Wol Euler scoffs.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Pema Pera laughs
    Albertus Urvilan: You can have a present!!!
    Albertus Urvilan: Every moment you get a new present to unwrap!!
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Riddle Sideways: virtually
    Pema Pera: each moment is a present from the Universe

    Only after finishing my sentence I noticed that Albertus had voiced a very similar idea.

    Pema Pera: yes.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Moon huzzah
    Wol Euler nods
    Albertus Urvilan: yay!
    Gilles Kuhn: well the remembered present is another interesting topic
    Fael Illyar: only people with experiences :)
    Albertus Urvilan: Whatever you remember is still in the present moment!
    Pema Pera: If you read anything, from Buddhist texts to Husserl's writing, if they are really inspired texts, you can learn to recognize the child-like innocence that is trying to be expressed -- but overlooked by pundits and scholars . . . .
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the picture of it...but not he is of it.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Gaya Ethaniel leaves quietly, answering a RL call. Good day everyone _/!\_
    quen Oh: bye Gaya
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Gaya
    Fael Illyar: See you later Gaya :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Gaya
    Wol Euler: bye gaya
    Albertus Urvilan: bye
    Pema Pera: bye Gaya
    Gilles Kuhn: bye gaya
    Moon Fargis: okay i also have to leave in a few mins... if someone wants to take a look at the library base, i will be at sandbox
    Riddle Sideways: ah, the appreciated presents
    Moon Fargis: see you later my friends
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fael Illyar waves to Moon.
    Adams Rubble: bye Moon
    Pema Pera: yes, it's about the end of the hour, so we can pick up next week
    Riddle Sideways: bye Moon
    Pema Pera: thank you all for coming here!
    Wol Euler: bye moon, I'll IM you for a TP if I may

    At this point a fair fraction of those present left, but since Gilles picked up on my last remark, some of us stayed for a bit longer to respond.

    Gilles Kuhn: actually i think the epoche or child like experience as you can name it too dont give really interesting information nor usefull with the exception of the fact that it permit you to identificate your prejudice
    Riddle Sideways: TY all
    Albertus Urvilan: I'm off to meditate ... thanks for the invite, and see you all later!
    Pema Pera: And thank you for joining us, Gilles and Albertus!
    quen Oh: bye Albertus
    Gilles Kuhn: bye albertus
    Riddle Sideways: bye Albertus
    Fael Illyar will be off to look at Moon's library base. See you all later :)
    Pema Pera: child like innocence can be the most "informative" for those with eyes to see, and can be complete nonsense for those who don;t . . . .
    Adams Rubble: :)
    quen Oh: well to identify prejudice or projection of your own is very interesting in my opinion
    Pema Pera: sure!
    Wol Euler: bye fael
    quen Oh: and find how the projection works even more
    Pema Pera: that's where logic can help
    Adams Rubble: bye Fael
    Riddle Sideways: I shall go too
    Pema Pera: can it can also cut things off when logic is used blindly
    quen Oh: and try whether you can influence it is most definitely very interesting
    Gilles Kuhn: eyes to see are they not fruit of learning or experince i.e. non childich ?

    A central question: what is child like innocence? If it is a kind of childish not yet developed way of seeing, then it is not very useful. But if it is a kind of wisdom that has learned to return to a child like innocence, that wisdom can go where pure logic alone cannot reach.

    Adams Rubble: bye Riddle
    Wol Euler: bye riddle
    Pema Pera: well, "eyes to see" cannot be captured in a definition
    Gilles Kuhn: (sorry for the spelling i have delay between my keyboard and the appearance of letter sl lag...)
    Pema Pera: np
    quen Oh: well perhaps the fruit of learning experience can be more interesting if you can in a way be aware of how this experience influences your experiencing...
    quen Oh: perhaps its not so much choosing between the two, but getting both and be aware of it?
    Pema Pera: yes!!
    Pema Pera: if a deaf person watches a dance, and doesn't know there is music behind it, it will be very hard to understand what's going on
    Gilles Kuhn: well for that rationnal i.e. intersubjective discussion is i think essential
    quen Oh: in a way experience is need to see more, but in another way it can distort to what you see
    Gilles Kuhn: to see what are you prejudice confrontation with others is a good methodology
    Pema Pera: we'll have to start with a concrete case though
    Pema Pera: we can't get anywhere by talking in generalities
    quen Oh: true
    Pema Pera: like phenomenology says X and others say Y, that is more politics
    Pema Pera: we have to go to the lab, roll up our sleeves and do an investigation
    Pema Pera: as PaB does
    Gilles Kuhn: politic in his ancient acception gave birth to greek philosophy in a way
    Pema Pera: if you have something to talk about, yes
    Pema Pera: there has to be an experiential base
    Pema Pera: I see this, and THEN I try to figure it out
    Pema Pera: and look again and see more
    Pema Pera: you have to start with what you see
    Pema Pera: not with isms
    Gilles Kuhn: because of the fact it was about rationnal discussion and they had a lot of talk about : what to do with the state i think that was the birth of what is call the greek miracle

    I was glad that we continued our talk, and that Gilles brought up yet another important point. Indeed, the Greeks have given us mathematics and many other intellectual tools, but they did not develop experimental science. This, too, is a big topic that I hope we can get back to at some point.
    Given that it was late already, I tried to see whether we could cut through all the intellectual analysis for a moment, to see where we start. What are the a priori assumptions? That we live in a world made up of matter, and we inhabit a body and use a brain -- in other words, the typical starting point? Or are we willing to entertain a more empirical starting point, based on what we actually experience, rather than starting with the common-wisdom shared set of assumptions of our culture?

    quen Oh: the more you look, the more you discover and the more you will see
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: What do you see, right now, Gilles?
    Gilles Kuhn: are you not neglecting the intersubjective human world ?
    Pema Pera: what is happening here?
    Pema Pera: where are we?
    Pema Pera: who are you?
    quen Oh: but at some point you might have so many expectations and ways of looking that you might loose the initial uninformed looking which is innocent, impartial...
    Gilles Kuhn: isz that my own point of view so important pema ?
    Gilles Kuhn: i think uninformed impartial look is a myth
    Pema Pera: what you see is the base of anything you can talk about Gilles
    Pema Pera: if you don't want to be engaged with what you see, then what?
    Pema Pera: you may of course conclude at some point that what you see was seen mistakenly
    Pema Pera: but you have to start somewhere
    Adams Rubble: We need to give things up to look with childlike eyes :)
    Pema Pera: and NOT with isms
    Pema Pera: NOT with a holy book
    Pema Pera: NOT with the unholy fads of today
    Wol Euler nods
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Gilles Kuhn: what i see do you say i dont think its the only base of what i can talk about as i am not alone in the universe
    Pema Pera: I mean "see" in as what hits you, where you think you are, what you think you are, what you start out with
    Gilles Kuhn: and my intellectual internal processing is too a big base

    I tried to sharpen and simplify and simplify even further the starting point.
    I hope I didn't sound disrespectful. I certainly didn't intend to, and my question was a serious one, a question that I like to work with myself.

    Pema Pera: who are you, Gilles?
    Pema Pera: Do you have any idea who you are?
    Pema Pera: If so, please answer
    Pema Pera: If not, isn't that interesting?
    Storm Nordwind is not sure what 'who' means! :)
    Gilles Kuhn: i dont understanf your question i know perfectly who iam and i will not ask kyou the same because i assume you too its the basis of human conversation to assume that
    Pema Pera: you know perfectly who you are?
    Pema Pera: really?
    Pema Pera: wow!
    Pema Pera: Socrates surely didn't
    Pema Pera: but seriously, what do you mean with that? I honestly ask, because when I try to see who I am I don't get a clear answer
    Gilles Kuhn: yes kkor precise your question i dont know for example my brain processes but in normal i e limited human conversation yes and you too
    Pema Pera: I see projections, ideas, identifications
    Pema Pera: but what if that all would be a dream, or like a dream?
    genesis Zhangsun: Maybe Giles what Pema is pointing out is that we often believe we understand something but we are only seeing it through certain preset lenses which lead you to believe you know something but it is really a knowing through that particular lens
    Gilles Kuhn: and socrates definitely said indeed know thee yourself and showed too that it was only meaningfulkll in interaction
    quen Oh is afraid she is merely some perspective, with a lot of experiences which now colour this perspective
    Gilles Kuhn: the question is not merely who i am but who are we and what is the meaning of having the possibility oto share a common intellectual and physical space
    Pema Pera: yes, Gilles, and Socrates did not find an answer, and did not expect really to find one, I think -- but learned a lot in trying; unlearned really
    genesis Zhangsun: well intersting dicussion all I am out of here!
    Pema Pera: bye Gen!
    quen Oh: bye gen
    Adams Rubble: bye Gen
    Gilles Kuhn: bye gen
    genesis Zhangsun: Have a beautiful dan/evening/nigh whatever!
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Wol Euler: bye gen, take care
    Pema Pera: Gilles, we should pick this up some other time -- it goes to the core of many things
    Pema Pera: and I really appreciate your bringing this up
    Pema Pera: I hope you don't mind me being rather direct :)
    Gilles Kuhn: and if your question was who i am in an absolute sense then i said that there is no response to that question but a question that cannot by principle have response is not intersting
    Storm Nordwind needs to go finish the Kira Cafe - please excuse
    Gilles Kuhn: i dont to the contrary
    Pema Pera: great, to be continued
    Adams Rubble: bye Storm
    Pema Pera: we are 15 minutes over time
    Wol Euler: bye storm
    Pema Pera: see you all soon again!
    Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
    quen Oh: bye Pema
    Wol Euler: bye pema, nice to seey ou again.
    Pema Pera: bye everyone!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye all!
    Gilles Kuhn: bye all
    quen Oh: bye all
    Wol Euler: bye quen, bye gilles
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