2008.10.13 19:00 - The dangers of meditation?

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     Threedee was the GoC.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Adelene
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Claire
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Ade, Claire
    Adelene Dawner: Hi folks :)
    Claire Beltran: Hello ^-^/
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is warmed by the Griffon.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: Just a winged lion, actually... ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
    Threedee Shepherd: In ONE, all the same :D
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Anyone want to start, or I will (that's a threat:)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: start
    Adelene Dawner: Who's taking pictures?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Friedrich
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Me.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hey
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sorry if it's noisy..
    Adelene Dawner: heh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I just wanted one.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Friedrich, been a while. Good to see you :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: thanks. you too
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: been on haitus
    Threedee Shepherd: where is that?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: weren't we explorig fiddling w/ frequency and duration?
    Threedee Shepherd: A small island off the cost of ....
    Threedee Shepherd: coast
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: haitus from playing, i guess
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: been working, studying, etc.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: how about you?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, both of you
    Threedee Shepherd: ahh, the *stuff* of daily life :D
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i'm stuffed ;-)
    Threedee Shepherd chuckles
    Threedee Shepherd: so, after a hiatus, any new or old things to "report"
    Threedee Shepherd: .
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: how about i listen first and catch up ;-)
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, yes, its been an intense season
    Adelene Dawner: Did you have a topic, Love?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Avastu
    Adelene Dawner: Hi, Avastu. Love to you. ^.^
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: greetings, friend
    Avastu Maruti: love to you my friends
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Avastu, I'll be interested in your response on this question...
    Threedee Shepherd: I know that ONEness/Being is not good or bad, and that we impose those labels. Nonetheless, perhaps not everything is beneficial. This came up in a conversation I had at dinner--is all meditation (or PaB 9-sec) beneficial, or can one be *harmed* in any way?
    Claire Beltran: Hello to you both ^-^/
    Adelene Dawner: It seems to me that meditation can do a wide enough variety of things that yes, for almost any definition of 'harm' you care to use, there's a risk of it.
    Adelene Dawner: But then, that's life - nobody gets out alive. ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: What if something looks like harm...but isn't?
    Threedee Shepherd: Or the other way around ;D
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what did you have in mind, as an example, Threedee?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what kind of harm?
    Threedee Shepherd: Terror and its aftermath could be an example
    Threedee Shepherd: Not everything is "pretty"
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...is terror in and of itself, harm? what is the aftermath?
    Adelene Dawner: That's why I qualified my answer - you have to define 'harm' first.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: restless mind tonight. catch you guys in a bit.
    Threedee Shepherd: I'm purposely waiting to see if anyone has more to add
    Adelene Dawner: I wouldn't consider the experience of terror to be harmful, by itself - I'm 'built' to handle strong emotions and wouldn't be much affected by it. That's not true for everyone, and some people would most likely have long-term personal pattern changes from that experience. Whether you'd call those pattern changes 'harm' or not is another question.
    Threedee Shepherd: notice I used the term *beneficial*, not harm, to avoid that discussion of what is harm.
    Adelene Dawner: Fine, then we need to define beneficial. They're actually sides of the same coin, in a way. Different ways of categorizing change.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
    Adelene Dawner: And different people have different definitions. I'm sure you know some people, Three, who would categorize the changes of the last few days as 'harmful'... and both of us would put them firmly in the other category, I'm sure. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: In general arsenic is not beneficial. Being crushed by a falling piano is not beneficial, suicidal depression is not beneficial
    Adelene Dawner: Death is a change that'ss almost always put into the category of 'harmful', yes.
    Threedee Shepherd: http://www.arcanology.com/2002/09/06...-of-mediation/
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what's the source here?
    Adelene Dawner sighs.
    Threedee Shepherd: someone's blog, of course
    Threedee Shepherd: The closest to meditative practice in Judaism is traditional Kabbala. The tradition says no one under 40 is mature enough to study this, and it should never by done alone.
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Three, those things can happen. However. You and I *both* know how mainstream folks feel about *any* kind of unusual brainstate... and it's not surprise that someone pushed past the limits of their conceptualizations will have problems. That's a function of taking things too quickly, though, not of the brainstates themselves.
    Adelene Dawner: and, I need to afk for a minute.
    Adelene Dawner: back
    Threedee Shepherd: The site www.vipassana.com has the following sentence "Properly done, meditation is a very gentle and gradual process. " This clearly implies there are IM-proper ways. What might they be?
    Adelene Dawner: Focusing on the special effects, for one.
    Threedee Shepherd: such as
    Adelene Dawner: rewording: Treating *any* altered state of consciousness as a goal, not a side-effect.
    Adelene Dawner: getting attached to the process, basically.
    Adelene Dawner sighs. "Sorry, this has me grumpy. Anything that demonizes nonstandard brainstates, or implies that they're intrinsically impossible to function with, gets under my skin, for entirely understandable reasons."
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It is time for me to go.
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Corvi
    Avastu Maruti: love, my friend
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: g'night all
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Avastu.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: love to you, Avastu.
    Threedee Shepherd: night
    Threedee Shepherd: It seems that without the insight of guidance/lessons, one could fall "down the rabbit hole"
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Claire Beltran: I think I nee to go now...
    Claire Beltran: *need
    Claire Beltran: I'll see you all <3
    Threedee Shepherd: night Claire
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Claire
    Avastu Maruti: love, my friend
    Claire Beltran: Thank you all. *hug*
    Adelene Dawner: I don't know if it's properly 'guidance' that's needed... I didn't have any. But then, we've already established that my grasp of some of the core concepts is kind of freakish. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: The problem - and this is a class of problems, really, that show up in lots of situations - is getting stuck in a loop.
    Adelene Dawner: Lots of people do that just with emotions in general, actually... they fear something, and then they fear the fear, and then they fear getting laughed at for fearing the fear, and then... and it gets out of hand.
    Threedee Shepherd: true, which happens all too easily
    Threedee Shepherd: or they perseverate in unproductive behaviors hoping to finally get a new result :D
    Adelene Dawner: Yup.
    Adelene Dawner: 'attachment'
    Threedee Shepherd: Or "be careful what you wish for" is another trap
    Adelene Dawner: yes
    Adelene Dawner: Basically all the same mistakes that people can make in mundane life, they can make meditating... but pushing your brain past the limits of what you know how to handle is a little bit higher stakes than most mundane things.
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, so should PaB have a Caution sign up for new members?
    Adelene Dawner: That's come up before, and we decided it wasn't necessary - I think it'd do more harm than good, really.
    Adelene Dawner: If you think that something's unsafe, you're less likely to be comfortable around it, and being calm and comfortable and feeling safe is important to doing this safely.
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, a catch-22
    Adelene Dawner: And we're the real safety net, anyway - watching out for each other, giving each other a good shake when we need it. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Ade, as you have said in other ways, there is a concept of too much too soon. How would one recognize that for themself?
    Adelene Dawner: Well, they wouldn't - if you can see that something's probably too much, you won't do it. It's the pit that you don't see that you'll fall into.
    Threedee Shepherd: YOU see pits better than most ^.^
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Threedee Shepherd: Not only that but the following is relevant. Somewhere I so, the following: "My fear of heights is not that I may fall, but that I may jump."
    Threedee Shepherd: *I saw
    Adelene Dawner: Yes. I've been there, too. That's not pleasant.
    Threedee Shepherd: And I have too.
    Adelene Dawner: And a riskier place than most, if you don't realize that action doesn't have to follow thought.
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, I do have fear of heights in certain situations (a bit unpredictable) and when I am overcome by the intensity of the emotions, I am clearly not in my *right mind* and prone to misjudgement.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: In my experience, two things have to happen for that kind of situation to actually be dangerous. The first is the impulse, and the second is getting into a loop with the emotions.
    Adelene Dawner: In my case...
    Adelene Dawner: back when we were talking about that deep fear...
    Adelene Dawner: there was an impulse to just go ahead and do the thing I was afraid of, knowing full well that it might have killed me and that I would not have come out of it the same as when I went in.
    Threedee Shepherd: oh dear
    Adelene Dawner: "but at least I'll *know*"
    Adelene Dawner: No worries, I'm solidly past that.
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Adelene Dawner: *hug*
    Adelene Dawner: Aside from the fact that it would have been a complicated process to go and do the thing... a signifigant part of me just *saw* the fear, the confusion, the... what's the negative version of the emotion 'curiosity'? Does that have a word?
    Adelene Dawner: Anyway.
    Adelene Dawner: Those emotions were there, but they were just-there. I didn't get emotional about the emotions, so they didn't loop.
    Threedee Shepherd: ah, a trap NTs find hard to avoid ;D
    Adelene Dawner: I know.
    Adelene Dawner: And eventually I figured out *why* that impulse was there, and it dissapeared.
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, so we arrive at the following aphorism "Thinking can be dangerous to your health. Not thinking IS dangerous to your health."
    Adelene Dawner: *chuckles* yup
    Threedee Shepherd: OK. So it's just us animals and our *friently listener* and I think I am going to end this session now. OK folks?
    Avastu Maruti: ok
    Adelene Dawner: I know this conversation's been far too relative and mundane for your tastes, Avastu, but, any thoughts arising?
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha
    Avastu Maruti: no thoughts
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Okay"
    Threedee Shepherd: Nonetheless, be of good health, and goodnight :)
    Threedee Shepherd: .
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Avastu Maruti: love to you my friends
    Adelene Dawner: Love to you, Avastu. See you at home, Mark.

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