2008.10.17 13:00 - Overlapping of Beings

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    The guardian was Solobill, the comments are his.

    Many greetings...

    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Gaya! Hi, Moon!
    Faenik: なるほど^^

    Moon's avatar is currently a small fluffy yellow teddy bear...

    Solobill Laville: I don't think I've seen that avatar yet Moon...It is great! :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Solobill Laville: How are you, Gaya?
    Wol Euler: hello gaya, moon, solobill
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: Wol! Hey there, didn't see you come in :)
    Wol Euler: I'm sneaky that way
    Solobill Laville: ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Moon Fargis: oohhw glasses!
    Wol Euler tickles moon
    Wol Euler: all the better to see you with, my dear.

    Just then Max arrived, who I haven't seen in person in many weeks (months even, perhaps.)

    Solobill Laville: Hi. Max!
    Wol Euler: hello maxine
    Hug Attachment: M&P Hug Attachment ready.
    Maxine Walden: hi, Wol, Solo, Moon, Gaya
    Hug Attachment: You give Moon Fargis a big hug.
    Solobill Laville: It's been far too long, Max! How are you?
    Maxine Walden: wow, thanks Moon for the hug.
    Maxine Walden: Solo, it has been a long time, so good to see you!
    Moon Fargis: hu
    Solobill Laville smiles
    Moon Fargis: it went to you ?
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Wol Euler: it would be rude to take it back.
    Maxine Walden: I've been good thanks, yourself, solo.
    Solobill Laville: Good, too
    Tiny Hug whispers: Moon Fargis gives Gaya Ethaniel a big hug
    Maxine Walden: Yes, Moon, the hug came my way, was it intended elsewhere?
    Solobill Laville: Thanks for writing that thoughtful piece on the site

    I was referring to a short piece Max had written in response to Pema's comments the previous week about descrives regarding Being and being.

    Maxine Walden: I could give it back if you profer
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Moon Fargis: ahh its ok as long you stand up :)
    Maxine Walden: Thanks, Solo, did it seem thoughtful? Afterward I got to thinking that I can go on and on re evolution and that might be tedious...but thanks
    Maxine Walden: I will keep the hug, think that it has to do with this sweet yellow critter in front of me...
    Maxine Walden: oh, Moon, that yellow critter is you!!
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Tiny Hug whispers: Moon Fargis gives Maxine Walden a big hug
    Solobill Laville: Well, I agree with you on the point about evolutionary "conditioning" or whatever it may be called, to see things in a certain way.
    Wol Euler: overwhelming :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles

    Moon's teddy bear is giving hugs to folks.  Then Fael joins us.

    Solobill Laville: :))
    Wol Euler: hello fael
    Faenik: ah :)
    Solobill Laville: Who can't hug a yellow teddy bear?
    Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine, Wol, Moon, Solo, Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Maxine Walden: indeed, who can't hug a yellow teddy!
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Fael!
    Solobill Laville: Wow, what a great group today!
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Moon Fargis: hi fael!
    Solobill Laville: I took a picture, to make it last longer... ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: Ah, Adams arrived.
    Fael Illyar: (in RL)
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Adams! (in RL)
    Wol Euler waves
    Fael Illyar: (so it's now me, Maxine and Adams in the room)

    This was the weekend of the first RL PaB-fest in Princeton, and even as Fael and Max were sitting here with us, they were also sitting together in RL!

    Wol Euler chuckles
    Solobill Laville wonders if Fael will channel Adams...)
    Fael Illyar thinks we'll take turns with Maxine.
    Maxine Walden: Adams looks at the screen over Faels shoulder
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: wow
    Gaya Ethaniel: lines are missing in my chat window but I gather Adams is with Fael and Maxine in RL?
    Solobill Laville: How is it going so far at PaB-fest in RL?
    Wol Euler shouts: hey adams, get your laptop out and join us.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Solobill Laville: yes!
    Gaya Ethaniel waves at Adams, hello

    Tyere was a long pause in the conversation, which led me to say...

    Solobill Laville thinks the three of them are talking about us
    Maxine Walden: Adams says hello that she did not bring her laptop, will have it tomorrow
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Solobill Laville: Ah, so Max channelled Adams...
    Maxine Walden: two rooms full of folk talking about each other
    Wol Euler finds this overlapping of Beings quite amusing.
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: So, I thought I'd float a subject today, if that is OK
    Wol Euler: plaese do
    Solobill Laville: ok
    Maxine Walden: yes
    Solobill Laville: Early on, and still, Pema approached PaB by starting out with a hypothesis
    Solobill Laville: that is, that things may not be *just* as they seem
    Solobill Laville: (I wish I had the verbatim with me now...)
    Solobill Laville: But that there may be something else going on
    Solobill Laville: and that through certain practices we may be able to *see* it
    Solobill Laville: though the language is so limiting
    Gaya Ethaniel: another meeting to attend. good day everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: what I was thinking about was the idea of *belief*,
    Maxine Walden: bye Gaya
    Wol Euler: bye gaya
    Solobill Laville: or at least acceptance of another possibility, of *Being*
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Gaya :)

    And here I dropped the "F-bomb"...

    Solobill Laville: (is some other contexts "faith" may be appropiate)
    Maxine Walden: I would like to hear more, Solo
    Solobill Laville: bye, gaya
    Solobill Laville: Well, I've brought up the idea of "faith" before, basically "faith" in Being
    Solobill Laville: not God, in any Western sense
    Maxine Walden: yes...
    Solobill Laville: But "faith" seems to perhaps have too much Christian meaning to most of us Westerners
    Fael Illyar would simply call that Faith.
    Solobill Laville: The piont is, to me personally, that "faith"
    Solobill Laville: or at least acceptance of the possibility
    Solobill Laville: is fundamental to the possibility of any real
    Solobill Laville: realization, or intuitive knowledge, of Being
    Solobill Laville: And depending on people's reasons for attending PaB, it interests me

    In other words, I was trying to get at whether PaB participants are here to discuss things as a reinforcement and nurturing towards realization of Being, to whatever extent that may be, or here to discuss things conceptually.

    Wol Euler muses: could one arrive at knowledge of something one disbelieves in?
    Wol Euler: (seriuos question, no being snarky)
    Solobill Laville: If you strongly disbelieve (in the context of Being), I would argue no
    Maxine Walden: Is faith as you are speaking of it Solo akin to being open, being able to be open, faith/trust in being able to be open to the new?
    Solobill Laville: I think that would be part of it yes, Max, though as it developed perhaps more of a real "trust that it is so"...

    My meaning was a bit more than just openness.

    Fael Illyar: Faith need no concepts.
    Maxine Walden: not speaking of faith in something specifically, but faith as an attitude of openness
    Solobill Laville: I think that (Max) may be exactly as Pema was stating it, I am saying perhaps it is something more
    Maxine Walden: Adams is suggesting that we have a certain amount of trust that there is Being -- a kind of faith she is suggesting
    Solobill Laville: Fael, can you expand on that?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Adams, and what does that trust mean to you?
    Fael Illyar: you do not need to rationalize nor explain Faith. It just is
    Maxine Walden: Adams: I think in that context trust is almost a synonym for faith
    Solobill Laville: How big a role do you think that plays in Seeing Being, Fael?
    Fael Illyar: what I see religions being about is that they attempt to explain Faith. Which works quite well for getting there but becomes limiting when you could do without.
    Solobill Laville agrees with Adams
    Wol Euler nods
    Solobill Laville: OK, I agree with that too, Fael
    Solobill Laville: But does anyone here think that a LACK of faith in Being limits the possibility of Seeing Being playing being, to use Pema's words (?)
    Fael Illyar: Seeing Being ... is something that somehow sounds a bit strange to me.

    Yes indeed, and perhaps I need to review my PaB dictionary to figure out a better way to say that.

    Solobill Laville: I would call it realization, but there are many terms, and maybe I quote Pema wrongly...
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, at first thought I would say that a lack of faith makes relating to Being very difficult
    Fael Illyar: lack of faith makes living difficult as well
    Solobill Laville nods
    Wol Euler: I thik it might still be possible, but (a) the native belief might "overrule" actually perceiving what was seen, and (b) it would probably be a hell of a shock :-)
    Wol Euler: road to damascus, and all that
    Wol Euler: because there is a human tendency not to see things that contradict our beliefs.
    Solobill Laville: mm hmmm
    Fael Illyar: beliefs are the filter that limits our seeings
    Maxine Walden: I agree with you Wol, re our lens being etched by beliefs
    Solobill Laville nods
    Solobill Laville: I tend to think that it is a necessary condition
    Solobill Laville: Hence also, the hypothesis
    Wol Euler: faith is needed to see the proof that faith is "right"?
    Solobill Laville: No, more in the sense of what max was saying
    Fael Illyar: Faith is the main ingredient of happiness
    Solobill Laville: Opening the window, to let the fresh air come in

    We explored the general idea of faith from here on out.

    Solobill Laville: i wonder ultimately, to Fael's point, if anyone truly has faith in nothing
    Maxine Walden: cynicism might...
    Solobill Laville: But couldn't you have faith in chaos? Or anarchy?
    Maxine Walden: have faith in nothing or better from my view cynicism tries to shoot down the value of faith
    Maxine Walden: to say 'what a fool you are to have faith, etc'
    Solobill Laville nods
    Wol Euler: applying "sour grapes" to other people
    Fael Illyar: anyone trying to shoot down faith doesn't understand faith.
    Fael Illyar: or uses some other word for it
    Solobill Laville: yes, I agree with that Fael
    Maxine Walden: agree, Fael, but there are states of mind which oppose faith
    Solobill Laville: well, but now we're not just talking "spiritual" faith, yes?
    Maxine Walden: don't think so, faith in mankind can cynically be attacked as foolish, pollyanna-ish, etc...
    Solobill Laville: ok, but what if I said I have only faith in myself?
    Wol Euler: I would wonder whether it was true in any sense of "faith" that I could use.
    Solobill Laville thinks of the John Lennon song "God"

    "...I just believe in me..."

    Wol Euler googles
    Maxine Walden: Adams: We were just taking here that fundamentalists tend to have the least faith in mankind
    Wol Euler: absolutely!
    Maxine Walden: that they see mankind as evil and needing to be controlled
    Solobill Laville: interesting point
    Solobill Laville is now listening to John Lennon... :)
    Solobill Laville: Who has the most faith in mankind, I wonder...
    Maxine Walden: Adams: That is kind if a "self" question, i.e. most faith :)
    Fael Illyar: ... just faith in yourself ... leads to a question what exactly that is you have faith in then :)
    Solobill Laville: yes!
    Solobill Laville: And to me, that faith led to the question: "Who are you?"

    And this question popped in to my head all the time (still does...)

    Maxine Walden: for me, faith in onself is really distrust in others and perhaps a sense of a wish for power
    Solobill Laville: Yes, depends on a specific definition of faith though

    Wol gave us an excerpt of an essay by Orwell.

    Wol Euler: too long to quote in chat :-)
    Wol Euler: related to the discussion of fanaticism and Unfaith in humanity.
    Solobill Laville: All I know is this mind-body
    Wol Euler gave you George Orwell on Gandhi and non-attachment.
    Wol Euler: tell adams I'll send her a copy :-)
    Solobill Laville: thanks, Wol
    Maxine Walden: Adams says thanks Wol :)
    Maxine Walden: and Maxine says thanks Wol

    I commented on a sentence in the essay...

    Solobill Laville: hmmm, if you are beyond politics what is the compromise by entering them...
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Maxine Walden: oh, I think I may have misunderstood Solo's 'only faith in oneself' to mean non-faith when he may have meant something else
    Maxine Walden: sorry if I misunderstood you, Solo
    Solobill Laville: yes, that's why I tried to clarify it, Max :)
    Maxine Walden: yes...
    Solobill Laville: interesting note by Orwell, too
    Fael Illyar: yes, quite interesting
    Solobill Laville: But, don't know if I'd subscribe to his newsletter... ;)
    Maxine Walden: want to digest it more
    Wol Euler: hehehehe
    Maxine Walden: yes, lol, solo
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: Well, I must be off, friends
    Wol Euler: ah, yes, it's time. I must be up early tomorrow too.
    Wol Euler: goodnight solo
    Solobill Laville: Night, all! Have fun in NJ those of you who are there!
    Maxine Walden: everyone's leaving, guess it is time to go?
    Maxine Walden: oh we will, and will send our cheers to all of you
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Wol Euler: I will stay on a few minutes, recompiling the listener scripts in Mono.
    Solobill Laville: ?? Does that affect me and the log, Wol?
    Wol Euler: no, logging is still manual for at least anohter wek. I found and fixed another bug, I want to watch it for a few days.
    Solobill Laville: k
    Solobill Laville: bye!
    Fael Illyar: Bye Solo :)
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