2008.10.22 19:00 - Meta

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    Rowan Masala was the guardian for this discussion.

    Rowan Masala: hello Geo
    Geo Netizen: Hi Rowan
    Rowan Masala: how are you?
    Geo Netizen: I'm great! how are you doing?
    Rowan Masala: not bad, thanks
    Rowan Masala: I'm being guardian in Steven's place tonight
    Rowan Masala: since he took my slot on Sunday
    Geo Netizen: Ahhhh. Hi Adelene
    Rowan Masala: Hi Adelene
    Geo Netizen: So good to see you :)
    Rowan Masala: how are you tonight, Adelene?
    Adelene Dawner: Laggy. And I keep missing Geo's lap. ^.^
    Rowan Masala: is that what you're aiming for?
    Geo Netizen: O .... you remembered :)))))
    Rowan Masala laughs
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Rowan Masala: be gentle with Hester. she's afraid of lions
    Adelene Dawner: aww.
    Rowan Masala: so, do either of you have a topic in mind you'd like to discuss?
    Geo Netizen: Not I said Geo ...
    Rowan Masala grins
    Geo Netizen: but ...
    Adelene Dawner: Not offhand - I'm still on metaflexability but it may well take all session just to get you two up to speed there.
    Geo Netizen: Steven jokingly, complained that I was always late so
    Geo Netizen: I want it on the record that I was here on time tonight.
    Adelene Dawner grins at Geo. ^.^
    Rowan Masala laughs
    Rowan Masala: done
    Rowan Masala: how long have you been coming to meetings, Geo?
    Geo Netizen: O ... I think a littler over a week maybe
    Rowan Masala: oh! ok
    Geo Netizen: I would love for you, Adelene, to expound on metaflexability.
    Adelene Dawner: Ok
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think you've actually been here to see me doing this yet, but I like to poke at patterns... all kinds of different patterns.
    Adelene Dawner: One of the recent ones that I was playing with was roughly 'styles of using resources'.
    Adelene Dawner: Given the base premise that people are 'good' and try to play nice with the people around them, most or all resource use is done in such a way as to take into account the needs and wants of others.
    Adelene Dawner: There's a few styles of that.
    Geo Netizen nods
    Adelene Dawner: 'Thoughtfulness' means leaving specific resources for others based on your guesses of what they will need. If you guessed wrong, oh well, you're using the rest of the resources and either your project or theirs will suffer.
    Rowan Masala: assuming a scarcity of resources
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, assuming that; it seems to often be the case.
    Rowan Masala: please pause for a 9 second meditation
    Rowan Masala: thank you
    Geo Netizen: Then would metaflexability be something like system wide flexibility in allocation of resources ?
    Adelene Dawner: 'Compassion' means building your project in a way that is flexible in the types of resources that it uses; if someone else needs a given resource you will often be able to rearange your plans so that both projects can proceed. It's more flexable than Thoughtfulness.
    Adelene Dawner: Then there's another method, which I don't have a word for, but the difference between it and compassion is that it's not firmly attached to the idea of getting the project done at all; conflicts are dealt with by putting the project on hold until the conflict is resolved. It does work, though slowly, and is even more flexible than compassion.
    Adelene Dawner: Make sense so far?
    Rowan Masala nods
    Rowan Masala: I think so
    Geo Netizen nods Yes
    Adelene Dawner: So we have three methods with various levels of flexibility. If you're simply looking at flexibility as a good thing, the third would seem like the best option, because it's the most flexible, and in fact if you had to only use one it probably would be the best option.
    Rowan Masala: ok
    Geo Netizen nods
    Adelene Dawner: Metaflexibility means having the option to use any of the three. It's more work because you have to choose between the three, but it offers a whole new *type* of flexibility. The flexibility to be inflexible, if you will.
    Geo Netizen: O ... I see the meta now
    Rowan Masala: ok
    Adelene Dawner: Now, that's one example of metaflexibility. I've seen others. I'd like to come up with a generalized definition of it that's not reliant on any example, though.
    Rowan Masala: I guess I think of it as a constant triage process
    Geo Netizen: A generalize theory instead of the special theory ...
    Rowan Masala: from moment to moment we look for what the most crucial need is and adjust what we're doing, and in your terms the resource allocation, accordingly
    Adelene Dawner: If you're doing it right, it doesn't have to be, Rowan.
    Rowan Masala: Hi Steven
    Geo Netizen: Hello Steven
    Rowan Masala: doesn't have to be what?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Adelene Dawner: You can be metaflexible from the start, intentionally. Hi Steve ^.^
    Rowan Masala: but part of being flexible is being nimble, being able to shift gears as situations morph into new situations
    Adelene Dawner: And in fact just looking at the immediate need can lead to foolish decisions - I've done that.
    Rowan Masala: but alacrity doesn't necessitate looking at the immediate need only
    Rowan Masala: the big picture always encompassess the future as well as the past and present
    Adelene Dawner: Let me rephrase...
    stevenaia Michinaga: are you Ade and Geo the only ones here?
    Rowan Masala: yes
    Rowan Masala: no other laps to worry about :)
    Adelene Dawner: When doing triage, one tends to rely on heuristics. like 'flexible is better than inflexible'. Relying on thise is a form of inflexibility, in fact it may be the opposite of metaflexibility. Metaflexibility meand being able to be flexible or inflexible as the situation calls for it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: ..thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: I've never heard of this
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, it's new, Steve. ^.^
    Geo Netizen: Adelene is giving us a short tutorial
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww
    Rowan Masala smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: sign me up
    Adelene Dawner: heh
    Adelene Dawner: 'tutorial', right. There is no more; that's all I've figured out so far. ^.^
    Geo Netizen: But I think I will have to review the log and think some more on the subject ;)
    Rowan Masala: please pause for 9 seconds
    Rowan Masala: thank you
    Rowan Masala: so tell us about practical implications of metaflexibility, Adelene
    Adelene Dawner: Well, I'm applying one in my First Life right now.
    Geo Netizen: Please elaborate
    Adelene Dawner: You may or may not know - it's come up before - but BF and I have been having some relationship troubles for a while now. I've been trying to be flexible, because that's supposed to be 'good'. It hasn't worked; he just takes advantage of it.
    Adelene Dawner: While at the meetup, I had some time to think, and it really does seem like the issues aren't going to get better without a drastic change.
    Rowan Masala nods
    Geo Netizen nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: takes advantage? as you have giving in and forgo something?
    Adelene Dawner: And the metaflexible thing to do seems to be to downshift from that third state all the way to 'thoughtfulness'. So far, it's working decently well.
    Adelene Dawner: And yeah, Steve, though I'm really simplifying the situation here.
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Corvi!
    Rowan Masala: Hi Corvi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya!
    Geo Netizen: Hi Corvi .... great to see you :))
    Adelene Dawner: Let me make you a notecard, Cor.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Geo who has a cat on his lap.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thank you.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Rowan! Steve!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Sylectra!
    Geo Netizen: A lovely large cat too !!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: indeed.
    Rowan Masala: Hi Sylectra
    Sylectra Darwin: whoa, nice lag.
    stevenaia Michinaga: Ade hasn;t rezzed for em yes...just a cloud
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, Nostrum..
    Sylectra Darwin: hello my friends :)
    Rowan Masala: Hi Nos
    stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t see sylectra either
    Nostrum Forder: ``Hi
    Geo Netizen: Hi Nostrum Hi Sylectra :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Maybe I am a nimbus today.
    Nostrum Forder: rebake
    Rowan Masala: you're corporeal for me, Sylectra
    Sylectra Darwin: oh good!
    Geo Netizen: And me too
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe
    stevenaia Michinaga: jsut don;t tell me I;m wearing a pumpkin on my head
    Sylectra Darwin: hey steve -
    Sylectra Darwin: you're wearing a pumpkin on your head.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi , there you two are
    stevenaia Michinaga: I told you.......
    Sylectra Darwin: thanks Ade
    Rowan Masala: at least it's a smashed pumpkin
    Sylectra Darwin: whoa, so it is smashed.
    Rowan Masala: so, metaflexibility is a cool term, but is it different from standard decision making other than semantically?
    stevenaia Michinaga: it's a pumkin beret, silly
    Rowan Masala: another fruit beret, like raspberry
    Adelene Dawner: I think it's a concept *in* decision-making. Not everyone uses it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: you have me confused with Carmine Maranda
    Sylectra Darwin: lol
    Rowan Masala: no, I think I was trying to toss you in with the Artist Formerly Known as Prince and the Smashing Pumpkins
    Nostrum Forder: Where in the world is stevenaia Michinaga.
    Adelene Dawner: And yes, I may be defining something that's relatively common. So's compassion, but it was still useful to talk about it.
    Rowan Masala: absolutely
    Sylectra Darwin: Reading through the chat log from before we arrived *fashionably* late (sorry) I am intrigued by metaflexibility. Who coined it and is it just for SL projects?
    Adelene Dawner: Me, and it's for wherever you find it useful.
    Geo Netizen: There's local, global and then meta
    Geo Netizen: decision making.
    Rowan Masala: is there such a thing as meta-Being?
    Geo Netizen: 0th
    Adelene Dawner: Nope, Rowan... Being is meta to everything ^.^
    Rowan Masala smiles
    Sylectra Darwin: A blend of compassion, thoughtfulness and uh, flexibility or unattachment to the project goal.
    Sylectra Darwin: Did I paraphrase correctly?
    Adelene Dawner suspects that Being == 0th, Geo.
    Geo Netizen nods
    Rowan Masala: 9 seconds, please
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: [19:22] Adelene Dawner: Now, that's one example of metaflexibility. I've seen others. I'd like to come up with a generalized definition of it that's nto reliant on any example, though.
    Sylectra Darwin: It would be like, if a real estate developer were clearing land for a new restaurant, and they decided to leave the trees and design the building around them?
    Adelene Dawner: No, Syl - thoughtful choosing *between* thoughtfulness/compassion/3rd is metaflexibility
    Sylectra Darwin: Can someone come up with a real life (or SL) example?
    Adelene Dawner: (the use of the word 'thoughtful' the first time there is an interesting but unintentional recursion)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: did you mean these three things are one way of being metaflexible and that there are others??
    Adelene Dawner: Well, those three are examples of one area where one can be flexible to various degrees. There are other areas.
    Rowan Masala: I got the sense that metaflexibility is being flexible enough to choose the appropriate level of flexibility for the situation?
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Rowan. ^.^
    Geo Netizen: Considering system wide things
    Rowan Masala nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: can we talk about levels of flexibility for a moment?
    Adelene Dawner: Sure
    Rowan Masala: sure, Steven
    Sylectra Darwin: Adelene, I have a really important question: how do you get those little pointy kitty punctuation marks?
    Rowan Masala grins
    stevenaia Michinaga: ^^
    Adelene Dawner: Shift-6, Syl. ^.^
    Rowan Masala: shift+6, period, shift+6
    Sylectra Darwin: ty
    stevenaia Michinaga: get a mac
    Sylectra Darwin: :-P
    Adelene Dawner pokes Steve. ^.^
    Sylectra Darwin: insufferable.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahaha
    Sylectra Darwin: all of them.
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    stevenaia Michinaga: winks at Nos
    Nostrum Forder: get a SL client that doesn't suck
    Nostrum Forder: mac won't help that
    Geo Netizen: ?
    Nostrum Forder: I'm nearly crashing here
    Sylectra Darwin: oh dear.
    Rowan Masala: so... your question about flexibility, Steven?
    Nostrum Forder: and half of you are entirely gray.
    Sylectra Darwin: dang
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, we start from being not flexible to all flexible
    Rowan Masala: I'd much rather be sepia than gray
    stevenaia Michinaga: trying to envision steps
    Sylectra Darwin: interesting question, Steven
    Geo Netizen: But ALL flexible means no position or grounding.
    Sylectra Darwin: Do you want an arbitrary number of steps or does 4 sound good to you?
    Rowan Masala: like being a blob
    Adelene Dawner: Exactly, Geo.
    Sylectra Darwin winks and smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, like the grass you step on
    Rowan Masala: I was thinking 12, but...
    Rowan Masala: oh, wrong meeting, sorry :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire tosses a pillow at Rowan...she's held off long enough.
    stevenaia Michinaga: the PaB-aholics meeting is down the hall
    Rowan Masala laughs
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Sylectra Darwin: I like the idea.
    Geo Netizen: I think I'm missing half this conversation. Geo is confused
    Sylectra Darwin: But what 12 would we use?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: They're being silly...
    stevenaia Michinaga: Play sometimes gets in the way of fluid thinking
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Rowan Masala: oooh--maybe we could come up with a 12-step program for Being
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...or helps it.
    Geo Netizen: :))
    Adelene Dawner: (Just let them go, Geo, they'll probably come back eventually.)
    Nostrum Forder: I'm sorry folks... I have to beg off. I can't really keep up because of the lag,, and it's getting hard even to type.
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometiems our sidetracks become our main thought ... but not tonight
    Nostrum Forder: 'nite
    Adelene Dawner: 'night Nos
    Rowan Masala: goodnight, Nos
    Rowan Masala: be well
    Geo Netizen: Bye Nos
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Nos
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Oh...gnight.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Meta isn't all steve.
    stevenaia Michinaga: there goes the best hair in the room
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's just a larger set.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's too true...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: though Sylectra's pretty awesome, too.
    Geo Netizen: Hey ... lets not talk about hair :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am still curious about other examples of meta sets.
    stevenaia Michinaga: giggles
    Rowan Masala: so if you can have metadata and metaflexibility, why not metaBeing? why not being about Being
    Sylectra Darwin: Alas, Nos' new SL client was not cooperating.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I believe there is only A Being
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I should be more clear..I'm interested in metaflexibility sets.
    Adelene Dawner: Ask Pema sometime, Ro.
    stevenaia Michinaga: the Being, wouldn't meta mean many
    Rowan Masala: no, meta doesn't mean multiple
    Rowan Masala: it means x about x
    stevenaia Michinaga: data about data
    Sylectra Darwin: There is actually a being and a Being and maybe even a BEING (Geo?)
    Rowan Masala nods
    Rowan Masala: meta-analysis--an analysis of the analysis
    Adelene Dawner: 'meta' is kind of like 'more', except it's closer to 'sideways' (another concept that could stand defining). But there is not more-than-Being or sideways-to-Being. It's ALL Being.
    Geo Netizen: Being exists and animates all levels 0, 1 and 2.
    Rowan Masala: but how do we know there isn't a level 3, or -1?
    Geo Netizen: So someone write a meta script for level 3
    Adelene Dawner: There could be, and perhaps already is, a level 3 or 4 or whatever. -1 just doesn't make sense in this context, at least to me, care to expand?
    stevenaia Michinaga: don't you mean all levels?
    Sylectra Darwin: Anyone mind their pic being taken for posting on Flickr and the wiki?
    Adelene Dawner: Go ahead ^.^
    Rowan Masala: no, I don't really have anything concrete, but I don't think we know enough about Being to say there's no metaBeing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins..Corvi never minds.
    Rowan Masala: sure, Syl
    Geo Netizen: Ok
    Geo Netizen nods
    Sylectra Darwin: thankya
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: full permissions anytime for the avatar.
    stevenaia Michinaga: removes hat
    Geo Netizen: O. leave the pumpkin on
    Rowan Masala: well, you know, I let Adelene capture my accidental skittling a few nights ago, so...
    Sylectra Darwin: accidental skittling?
    Rowan Masala: um, I ate a package of skittles that wasn't Skittles
    Adelene Dawner: I think if what you're looking at has a meta-itself, it's not really what we mean by Being. All is *all*, there is no meta-all because there's no extra place outside All for it to happen in.
    Sylectra Darwin: Oh dear Ade, this is getting complicated!
    Sylectra Darwin: Rowan, how interesting.
    Sylectra Darwin: Made you do things?
    Rowan Masala: ah, well, things aren't that clear for me, Adelene--I might believe there is a meta-all
    Rowan Masala: at least I wouldn't definitively deny the existence of a meta-all
    Rowan Masala: oh yes, Sylectra. all kinds of things
    Geo Netizen: If you mean all of FL and all of SL then the combined is meta. Then I'd agree
    Geo Netizen: I'm currently wondering if SL is, as many presume, just a subset of FL ...
    Sylectra Darwin grins at the Skittles snapshot
    Adelene Dawner: mmmmmmmm... what you're saying doesn't work, Rowan, but I'm not sure how to explain it.
    Rowan Masala: it doesn't work for you, but your logic is different than mine
    Rowan Masala: or perhaps I lack logic altogether
    Rowan Masala: and dwell more in possibility
    Geo Netizen: Formal logic doesn't work here, I think
    Rowan Masala: agreed
    Sylectra Darwin: Well the problem I am having with it is that meta seems to imply something additional to the traditional 2D Internet world, for example, 3D as in Second Life. However, RL is already in 3D so how is this meta in actuality?
    Rowan Masala: interesting, Sylectra
    Rowan Masala: I'd forgotten that they call this the metaverse
    Sylectra Darwin: Perhaps this confusion is based on the idea that we agree to think of certain things in certain ways, and so modifications of familiar mindsets then take on some sort of adjective or adverb to help them stand out. But it's really just how we agree to think of them at the time.
    Geo Netizen: Backing up up a bit- is Second Life (SL) less real than First Life (FL) so that we use RL with it?
    Adelene Dawner: I think I may be able to explain the 'all' thing.
    Geo Netizen: Or maybe is FL more real ?
    Rowan Masala: that's a good point, Geo
    stevenaia Michinaga: I see SL the same as FL except they have better hair here
    Geo Netizen grins
    Rowan Masala laughs
    Geo Netizen: If nothing else ... the relationships are just as real ....!
    Sylectra Darwin: I agree, Geo
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Geo Netizen: I do wish I could fly in FL though :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I wish for TP and mute.
    Rowan Masala: I think using RL as the term for non-virtual life is based on prejudice and a lack of understanding among those who haven't immersed themselves adequately in virtual life
    stevenaia Michinaga: and for some, invisible, but other than that....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but fly would work, too.
    Geo Netizen: Would you mute me ??
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no!
    Geo Netizen nods Yes ... exactly what I mean !
    Geo Netizen: Rowan
    stevenaia Michinaga: Although there is a theory that our RL is actually some being's simulation... and how would we know?
    Rowan Masala smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: and the little people typing here actually don't know it
    Rowan Masala: but to get back to Adelene--you wanted to say something about "all"?
    Adelene Dawner: ok
    Adelene Dawner: If I say 'all numbers', you probably think of 0, 1, 2, 3.... all the way up. 100 is part of 'all', and so is 1,000 and 1,000,000.
    Geo Netizen: O O we're getting into different types of infinity...
    Adelene Dawner: Now, if I say '-1', you might go 'oh, meta-numbers!' but -1 is still a number, it's part of 'all'.
    Rowan Masala: and the square root of negative 2
    Adelene Dawner: shhhh, Geo
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Rowan Masala: but Geo's right
    Rowan Masala: you can speak of infinity, but then still have infinity plus one
    Adelene Dawner: Yup, imaginary numbers are another different type of numbers, and they may also seem 'meta' but again, they're part of 'all'.
    Sylectra Darwin: Well, there are tarsals and metatarsals.
    Sylectra Darwin: And carpals and metacarpals.
    Sylectra Darwin: And SL has a group called Metanomics.
    Rowan Masala: oooh! yeah!
    Adelene Dawner: If 'infinity plus one' is in fact a functional concept, it's still part of 'all'.
    Adelene Dawner: And so are those other things.
    Geo Netizen: Hello Scotty
    Geo Netizen: Bye Scotty
    Rowan Masala: I understand what you're saying Adelene.
    Adelene Dawner: ok :)
    Rowan Masala: oh my, I didn't realize how late it had gotten
    Rowan Masala: I'm afraid I have to goo
    Rowan Masala: um, go
    Sylectra Darwin: smiles
    Adelene Dawner: 'night Ro
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Rowan, hester
    Geo Netizen: Gd'night Rowan
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'll pass what remains to you
    Rowan Masala: can we cut the log off here, or does someone want to send me the rest?
    Rowan Masala: oh, ok
    Geo Netizen: Ok with me to cut
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is late for some of us
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Rowan Masala: goodnight, all
    Sylectra Darwin: goodnight!
    Rowan Masala: be well
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night!

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