2008.10.27 13:00 - Leaves on the Line

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    Stim was the guardian that afternoon. He sent me, Pema, the chat log. I posted the log and provided the title.

    doug Sosa: wonderful!
    Quilty Bookmite: I take it Rev and Pema know each other.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: yes, we met some time ago in a conference setting
    doug Sosa: hi stim
    Pema Pera: btw, Reverie, we tend to put our conversations up on our blog, http://playasbeing.wik.is/, is that okay with you?
    Pema Pera: Hi Stim!
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: knew some of the same people
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Great- sounds good.
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Stim.
    Pema Pera: Thanks!
    Stim Morane: Hi everyone. Sorry I'm late, it's been one meeting after another today.
    Quilty Bookmite: My excuse is that the chat is an hour earlier for me.
    Stim Morane: Yes, I ran into that today too with a friend from Germany.
    Pema Pera: Stim, meet Reverie, we met a dozen years ago in RL, just found each other here
    Pema Pera: Rev, what are you up to in SL?
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Hello, Stim-- call me Rev
    Pema Pera: if I may ask?
    Stim Morane: Hi Reverie!
    Quilty Bookmite: Well met. :-)
    Stim Morane: Hi Rev :)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Doing a combination of fiction writing and art projects, mostly.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: :)
    Pema Pera: anything with dreams?
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: indirectly-- my involvment in that community has waned gradually
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: but I remain interested
    doug Sosa: and in RL?
    doug Sosa: What brings you both into contact so often?
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I havent' seen Pema in years...
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I'm grateful for this opportunity- it's always amazing to me how real it feels.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: power of the mind, and all that
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: :)
    Pema Pera: yep, like a dream, really
    Pema Pera: a quite lucid dream
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: very much so.
    doug Sosa: and the beauty of it.
    Pema Pera: (that's how Rev and I met, through talking about lucid dreams)
    Quilty Bookmite: As real as reality itself. :-)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: and sometimes just as unstable as a dream... lol
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Yes- I think your associate had given a paper on it.
    Pema Pera: As for what we're doing here, Rev, in short: in RL we try to stop every fifteen minutes for 9 seconds, as a kind of micro-meditation. It's a type of time tax: offering 9 out of every 900 seconds, roughly. The duration is short, but the frequency high, and it seems to have a real effect on most people. Then here in SL we talk about our experiences.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I am having some tech problems so I will do my best here
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: That makes sense, Pema.
    Pema Pera: Most people report some interesting experiences after just a few days: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_log_excerpts
    Pema Pera: seems to be a quick entry in playing with the mind, and exploring reality
    Pema Pera: Quilty how have you been?
    Quilty Bookmite: Pretty well, Yourself?
    Quilty Bookmite: It's funny, this time of year used to get to me and make me feel depressed. Nowadays it hardly affects me.
    Pema Pera: fine, thanks!
    Pema Pera: What do you think has changed?
    Quilty Bookmite: Hard to say. Just that something has shifted. And I actually enjoy Autumn, probably more than the summer.
    Pema Pera: so do I, my favorite season!
    Pema Pera: (brb, grab a cup of tea)
    Quilty Bookmite: I think I am learning to appreciate things more.
    Quilty Bookmite: Enjoy. :-)
    doug Sosa: Iharvest time, and toward contemplation
    doug Sosa: This year i feel the seasonal change is partly overridden by the techtonic plate shifts in the economy and politics.
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, and the leaves areY
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, and the leaves are turning.
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, lag. Must be leaves on the line.
    Quilty Bookmite: True, but somehow that stuff doesn;t feel so immediate.
    doug Sosa: interesting to me, if we stop and notice, do we only notice the visual and auditory, or can we feel history?
    Pema Pera: (back)
    Quilty Bookmite: How do you feel history?
    Quilty Bookmite: And what does it feel like? :-)
    doug Sosa: good question. but then how do we "see" the table here?
    doug Sosa: both are a construction.
    doug Sosa: oops.
    Quilty Bookmite: We lost Rev?
    Stim Morane: for the moment
    Quilty Bookmite: I'm getting some heavy lag. Could be the problem.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Pema Pera: I have to leave in a few minutes, yet another meeting -- many meetings these days in SL :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Pema Pera: Doug, I'd love to hear more arout what you said earlier: ] doug Sosa: the new model is loose problem definition, use a space that contains artifacts of past conversations, muc use of graphics, people responsible for self presentation, and be aware tat the conversation is a drama.
    Pema Pera: especially the drama part
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Udge
    Pema Pera: Hi Udge!
    Udge Watanabe: eveneing everyone
    Stim Morane: Hi Udge
    Udge Watanabe: sorry stim, didn't mean to leave you sitting alone out there
    Stim Morane: no problem
    doug Sosa: At some point, i think now now. But we do have a website i can post later..
    Pema Pera: it is nice to think now now :-)
    Pema Pera: we rarely do that . . . .
    Pema Pera: always lost in past and future
    Pema Pera: well, I have to leave now
    Stim Morane: Bye Pema
    Quilty Bookmite: Take care Pema.
    Udge Watanabe: bye pema, enjoy the day.
    Pema Pera: If you have time and interest, please feel free to come to the Kira Cafe at 2 pm SLT for our very first daily Happy Hour (free drinks and all :)
    Udge Watanabe: oooooh
    Quilty Bookmite: Might well do that if RL allows. Thanks.
    Udge Watanabe: will do.
    Pema Pera: we just had twenty visitors two hours ago, for "ask an astronomer" event in the Kira Cafe
    Pema Pera: Okay, c u !
    Quilty Bookmite: And I missed it!
    doug Sosa: Freedom is a no-brainerFrom Mercatornet, freedom is a no-brainer: Modern science has made great strides in knowledge of the brain, but our brains are not us. Creationists declare war over the brain: The creationists' battlefront with science has shifted from evolution to neuroscience. A look at why the denial of the right to die is sheer religious primitivism. From Obit, a special series on the morality, legality and personalities of assisted suicide. Fear, death and politics: What your mortality has to do with the upcoming election. To find out if you're fit for the Oval Office, simply take this personality test. Psychology Today bloggers put the presidential candidates to the test. Dear Mr. President: Advice from seven Nobel laureates on fixing the economy. The University of Chicago's Richard Epstein on the Obama he doesn't know. Or for worse: Why American politicians have such rotten marriages? Why relationship sex is boring: The verbye all
    Stim Morane: A strange oddlot of text
    Udge Watanabe: um, what was taht?
    Stim Morane: thank heaven I don't have to make sense of it
    Udge Watanabe: like a mental core dump
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: Quilty, it's been a while since I've seen you here.
    Quilty Bookmite: I've been away. :-)
    Stim Morane: I greatly enjoyed the last chat, in which people were talking about dealing (or not) withh negative emotions, like anger etc.
    Stim Morane: Do you remember?
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Burned in my memory. :-)
    Udge Watanabe: I was just reading the log of htat, what a coincidence :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Probably the most controversial chat I've had here.
    Stim Morane: Was there ever a followup to that?
    Quilty Bookmite: Not that I was in.
    Stim Morane: I see.
    Stim Morane: Well, I was impressed by the way you stuck to your view, which is one I am also very comfortable with due to long involvement with Buddhism and related contemplative traditions with ethical commitments.
    Quilty Bookmite: Still, nobody seemed too upset with me and I did get some very positive feedback from one other person.
    Stim Morane: I was 100% in agreement, but also know from the reactions I often get in classes I teach that it's a view people don't warm up to quickly these days.
    Quilty Bookmite: Actually, there was in fact a small follow up. A one to one chat with someone who had a rethink. :-)
    Udge Watanabe: ah
    Quilty Bookmite: I know. I think you were the only person there in agreement with me. :-)
    Stim Morane: Sorry if this all seems a bit vague, Udge.
    Udge Watanabe: no, I can follow it. I read the log today by chance
    Stim Morane: OK, good.
    Udge Watanabe: carry on :)
    Stim Morane: I was treading a thin line, Quilty, trying to accommodate the other main view being pushed on that occasion, even though I don't think it's the one most people should emphasize since it's simply too high to be realitic.
    Quilty Bookmite: I'm not sure what I can add to what was said then, about anger being essentially a destructive emotion and not one you can rely on.
    Stim Morane: No, I agree. And in my relatively old age I've come to respect things in the traditions that I cheerfully ignored when I first started stuying them 40 years ago.
    Quilty Bookmite: I try not to upset people too much but I also try not to compromise my view point. Also tricky. :-)
    Stim Morane: *studying
    Udge Watanabe smiles
    Stim Morane: I admired your position, and wish it could be discussed in a way that communicated more effectively.
    Stim Morane: Not that there was anything wrong with your comments, just that the topic is hard to handle.
    Udge Watanabe: there did seem to be a lot of heat generated, yes.
    Quilty Bookmite: That is always a difficulty. And SL isn't quite as effective a communication medium as RL. :-)
    Stim Morane: No
    Udge Watanabe: (afk for a sec)
    Stim Morane: ANd this is a topic that takes a fairly long time to "get".
    Quilty Bookmite: It was good to see that there was disagreement. It makes people think. :-)
    Stim Morane: ONe has to see the effects of anger etc, in far more detail and directness, than in usually common, in order to see the point and the opportunity also.
    Stim Morane: Anyway, I'm a fan of your view.
    Quilty Bookmite: Thanks. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Which isn;t to say I don't get angry. I do all too often. :-)
    Stim Morane: no, of course. But the issue is not to avoid having normal reactions arise, but what to do then.
    Quilty Bookmite: Indeed.
    Stim Morane: ANd they also are fantastic learning opportunities. It's much easier to teach the tricky epistemology stuff of such traditions in terms of simple concrete things like anger, than to rely on the more abstract analyses.
    Quilty Bookmite: I really appreciated the support by the way. I probably would have given up without it. :-)
    Stim Morane: I think I'm saying all this because I didn't feel I was giving you proper support then!
    Udge Watanabe: back, and reading
    Quilty Bookmite: I would disagree. I felt you backed me up well in your way.
    Stim Morane: well I was fence straddling, a position I'm often in when different views are being fielded.
    Quilty Bookmite: Fair enough. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Udge, is this something you feel strongly about? Does it make your blood boil? :-)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Udge Watanabe: heheheheh
    Udge Watanabe: nope
    Udge Watanabe: sorry
    Udge Watanabe: I try to be calm.
    Quilty Bookmite: Fair enough. :-)
    Udge Watanabe: I spent a lot of time being very angry when I was younger.
    Quilty Bookmite: A good approach to take.
    Udge Watanabe: didn't get me anywhere.
    Udge Watanabe: didn't make anyone happy, didn't even really upset the people I hoped it would hurt.
    Quilty Bookmite: Didn't we all? Seems to me that the teenage years are filled with anger.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Udge Watanabe: oh yes
    Stim Morane: or some related emotion from a short list
    Udge Watanabe: the world is full of stupid old men standing in our way with their bald heads and their ignorance
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, all pretty negative.
    Stim Morane: !
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes. :-)
    Udge Watanabe: ... who were of course at least ten years younger htan I am now.
    Udge Watanabe: and so it goes
    Stim Morane: ah ... life
    Udge Watanabe: yep.
    Quilty Bookmite: I do think it's really hard being a teenager and not feeling a part of either world.
    Udge Watanabe: only makes sense in the rear.view mirror
    Udge Watanabe: yes, that is true.
    Quilty Bookmite: I think I hit realisation about my mid to late 30s and it took a while after that for the anger to start dissolving.
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm
    Quilty Bookmite: And a lot of the anger was directed at myself.
    Stim Morane: I was unwilling to be a "grownup" for many years, until I suddenly realized there weren't very many in the world and that that was the problem.
    Udge Watanabe: oh yes, of course ;-)
    Udge Watanabe: ah! nice one, stim
    Quilty Bookmite: i don't think we are encouraged to grow up. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: It seems such a negative thing, equated with getting old.
    Stim Morane: No, and that's where things like the contemplative traditions came in for me.
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm
    Quilty Bookmite: And getting old is a terrible thing too. You have to try and stop it at all costs.
    Udge Watanabe: I don't think I could have done this at thirty though. certainly not before that age.
    Stim Morane: Yes.
    Quilty Bookmite: I would definitely agree. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: And I'll probably look back on myself in 20 years time (I hope) and think how foolish I was then. :-)
    Stim Morane: I doubt it
    Udge Watanabe: ha!
    Udge Watanabe: in small things, probably, but I much doubt that the big ones would change so far.
    Stim Morane: you will be wise enough not to do that
    Quilty Bookmite: Maybe. :-)
    Udge Watanabe: there is a useful German expression "Leitkultur" for which I can't find an English equivalent
    Udge Watanabe: meaning "the dominant culture of the moment"
    Udge Watanabe: I'm wondering what that is for us-in-the-West.
    Udge Watanabe: Youth is still highlly prized and praised, even as the world greys
    Stim Morane: pop music and texting, hopefully rather different than what we're doing now.
    Quilty Bookmite: Well, I think until recently it was capitalism. :-)
    Udge Watanabe: age is still devalued
    Udge Watanabe: un-valued
    Udge Watanabe: even as the supply of children dries up
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Age doesn;t seem to imply wisdom.
    Stim Morane: no, not at all!
    Quilty Bookmite: not that the two necessarily go together.
    Udge Watanabe: most countries in Europe now have static populations, wihch will begin to decline in the next decade.
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, I've heard that and I wonder why people worry about it.
    Quilty Bookmite: I think the UK population is probably growing at the moment due to immigration.
    Udge Watanabe: simple: who will change our bed linen and rinse our bedpans?
    Stim Morane: it puts a huge strain on the social systems. But it has some "silver linings" too.
    Udge Watanabe: we will outlive the supply of people young and able enough to care for us
    Udge Watanabe: no to mention the disapperance of the tax base.
    Quilty Bookmite: Unless there is an influx of people from abroad happy to do menial jobs.
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm, it will ahve to come to that.
    Quilty Bookmite: And it probably will. It always has.
    Stim Morane: yes udge, this is the "strain" on social systems i mentioned
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm
    Quilty Bookmite: Well, I think we will end up working longer and possibly (hopefully) being valued more.
    Stim Morane: anyway, life is always fraught with challenges and uncertainties
    Udge Watanabe: oh yes, fortunately
    Stim Morane: I hope you're right Quilty
    Quilty Bookmite: Not sure how I feel about working longer but I would like to see a reversal of the prejudice against the elderly.
    Stim Morane: this is tricky. Respect for the elderly seems "natural" in some cultures, but I'm not sure how common it will be in the near future.
    Quilty Bookmite: However, as 3 old men having a chat, what we should do is go down the pub. It's 2 p.m.
    Udge Watanabe: lol
    Udge Watanabe: yes indeed, took the words from my mouth
    Stim Morane: On the other hand, what we are emphasizing here in PaB relates to nurturing it.
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes. :-)
    Stim Morane: Oops, yes. Time to leave. I won't be at the cafe, but hope to see you both soon.
    Udge Watanabe: ok take care. nice to see you again
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