2008.10.30 07:00 - Indivisible

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    Time to go purple - CH


    Maxine Walden: Cal, hi
    Caledonia Heron: hey Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: good to see you
    Caledonia Heron: same here :) I can see your head :)
    Maxine Walden: oh, not the rest of me?
    Caledonia Heron: it's filling in, sec
    Maxine Walden: ah...hope it is here!
    Caledonia Heron: there we go :)
    Maxine Walden: good to have most parts of oneself along when one is about in the world
    Caledonia Heron: lol, yes
    Maxine Walden: hi, doug
    Caledonia Heron: I'm reminded of a Star Trek parady where people go through the transporter and arrive with their arm sticking out their ear and other misplaced/mismatched parts :)
    doug Sosa: morning!
    Caledonia Heron: hey Doug :)
    Maxine Walden: lol, quite an image, Cal
    Caledonia Heron: yes, hilarious to see James T. Kirk outside his manly man "boundaries"
    Maxine Walden: doug, we were just musing about having our various parts (head, body, etc) along as we rez in the world
    Maxine Walden: yes, isn't it something to see someone out of their usual 'modality'?
    doug Sosa: i always think pajama party when people show up in their greys
    Maxine Walden: pj party, huh?
    Caledonia Heron: we can do each other's hair and talk about boys :)
    doug Sosa: hmm.
    Maxine Walden: oh, yeah, and invite everyone's dog into the party too!
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Maxine Walden: do the dogs up for the party as well
    Caledonia Heron: bows and biscuits
    Maxine Walden: doug you still are a bit grey, except for your white hair.....might be my camera only
    Maxine Walden: oh yes, and dog kisses, which as kids was just fine
    doug Sosa: i look fine to me. anything i can do?
    Maxine Walden: when I was small I had a 'secret' which was that my dog slept under the covers at my feet. no one was supposed to know...
    Caledonia Heron: I can see you Doug and btw, it *is* nice to see you - been a while for me... we must be missing each other on times attended
    Caledonia Heron: ah, a foot warmer :)



    doug Sosa: i was traveling for a month..
    Maxine Walden: as far as I am concerned, doug, your presence is all that is needed
    Maxine Walden: away for a month! nice long time
    Maxine Walden: you were painting in Italy? do I have that right?
    doug Sosa: it is good to be able to actually BE somewhere for a while.
    doug Sosa: Yes, in Umbria, the old medieval center
    Maxine Walden: sounds like a wonderful place to Be. could you tell us about it?
    Maxine Walden: about the experience?
    doug Sosa: so many stones, so few words.. but
    doug Sosa: we stayed in a old monestary..
    doug Sosa: went each morning to a different hilltown..
    doug Sosa: painted till lunch..
    doug Sosa: then back to the monestary to paint in the old 15th century chapel
    Maxine Walden: marvelous sounding...
    Caledonia Heron: sounds lovely
    Caledonia Heron: how fortunate you are to do such a thing :)
    Maxine Walden: agree



    doug Sosa: the layers of history.. each town has an etruscan foundation, then roman, then medieval, then some baroque and renaissance stuff, and then the modern..
    Maxine Walden: layers of history...must have been quite impacting
    doug Sosa: the people were terrific, even in big cities like milan. multigenerational, lots of fun in the stores, the italians like style across generations and have fun being consumers.
    Caledonia Heron: that would be an interesting display, to take a given location and reveal layers like those anatomy books with the different clear overlays for skeleton, muscles, organs, etc
    Caledonia Heron: you could script that in second life
    doug Sosa: we are so uptight by comparison.
    Maxine Walden: yes...
    Caledonia Heron: yes, u.s. culture is pretty puritan, or faux puritan maybe
    doug Sosa: there people in RL look like the avatars here.
    Maxine Walden: in dress and manner, doug?
    doug Sosa: Seminar last week at stanford in philosophy given by a professor from spain. She had her shirt out, long blond hair, unbuttoned to the belly button, lots of rings and jeans with high heels.. Just like italy and not like stanford.
    doug Sosa: Yes, dress, manner and body type.
    Maxine Walden: was it a culture shock returning to the US? Wow re professor,
    doug Sosa: But also friendly and just pleasant.
    Maxine Walden: I recall the nudist beaches in Spain which were so casually regarded by the locals
    Caledonia Heron: stanford is pretty conservative :)
    doug Sosa: yes and yes.



    Maxine Walden: hi, Pema
    Caledonia Heron: hey Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Doug, Cal, Maxine!
    doug Sosa: hi!
    Maxine Walden: talking about cultural differences between Italy and US, doug telling us about his month's stay and its impact
    doug Sosa: We were talking about italy and I was about to raise the question of what happens in a different culture when we try the 9 sec.
    Caledonia Heron: we are comparing u.s. and italy :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: Doug's impact on Italy and Italy's impact on Doug, both?
    Caledonia Heron: LOL
    Caledonia Heron: yes
    Maxine Walden: indeed
    Pema Pera: any conclusions?
    doug Sosa: my impact I think was marginal.
    doug Sosa: Yes. the 9 sec.
    Caledonia Heron: don't be so sure :)
    doug Sosa: I think (which means i can be wrong) that the usual 9 sec reports have to do with inner states and outer things.
    doug Sosa: Stuff that i tend to be aware of in the 9 sec, like season, history, the flow of economic forces, others dont.
    Pema Pera: (inner -outer: if you want to make that split, yes; there are other ways to look at it and describe it)
    doug Sosa: but in italy in each 9 sec, i was aware of the presentation of culture, the human created atmosphere.
    Pema Pera: interesting!
    doug Sosa: yes. by inner and outer i am referring to the unity of experience and things, as if the ineffable stuff of human culture - lets say "forces of history" are really illusions.
    Maxine Walden: do you thinnk you were more aware/observant of their culture than you are of your own during the 9 sec in each place?
    Caledonia Heron: history may have a facet of illusion, and sometimes you can feel the historicity of places, the "oldness"



    Maxine Walden: am thinking that we often do not observe, or be aware of a familiar culture we feel embedded in
    doug Sosa: yes. Here i often have the perception that there are things without culture.
    Caledonia Heron: there is still some culture of the west where I am, like the wild west I mean
    Maxine Walden: perhaps the Italian locals are less aware of the history around them as it is so familiar, but we are impacted by it, having much less awareness of such history in our culture
    doug Sosa: I notice that when two people are typing, their hands are in synch, as if piano duet.
    Maxine Walden: interesting, Cal
    Caledonia Heron: sure Maxine, local fish don't see the local water :)
    Maxine Walden: right
    doug Sosa: i think the italians are very aware of that culture, and live as if in an archeological site. I am talking about the hill towns, ..
    Maxine Walden: ah...in the hill towns they are aware of the history?
    Pema Pera: Maybe that's part of lost glory . . . a bit like the Southern states in the US who are still painfully aware of having lost the Civil War?
    Pema Pera: unlike the Northerners who rarely talk about it?
    doug Sosa: well, walking on roman stones with medieval walls and baroque churches.. yes, and of course constant argumnets about which to preserve, and which to let be hiddnen. Shoul a renaissance wall be taken down to reveal the medieval underneath?
    doug Sosa: I don't feel nostalgia or loss, just richness and the pleasure of being grounded.
    Maxine Walden: lost glory, or being the loser of a war amidst a culture which won that same war? What gets emphasized...which layer of history...interesting musings
    Pema Pera: you don't, Doug, as coming from the outside; the natives may feel different
    doug Sosa: I did feel that europeans generally are living more in the shadow of WW2 than we, and strongly motivated to not repeat it. hence anger at the US.
    Pema Pera: ?
    Pema Pera: I grew up in an atmosphere of gratefulness to the US for liberating us, much more than anger -- that came later, with Vietnam and now Iraq
    doug Sosa: Yes, certainly.
    Caledonia Heron: maybe it is a generational thing then
    Maxine Walden: has that left various levels, layers of emotion, Pema, toward the US?
    Pema Pera: in fact, there was a more positive attitude again towards the US in the 1990s
    Caledonia Heron: to me WWII is something from a history class, stories from elders
    Pema Pera: in my experience at least, appreciation for the US in Europe was high in the fifties, sagged in the seventies, went up again in the nineties, and was squandered now in the zeroes
    doug Sosa: yes.
    Caledonia Heron: maybe our standing will improve soon ... hoping anyway :)
    Pema Pera: Vietnam -> Berlin Wall -> Iraq
    Pema Pera: Obama may do it, yes, I really hope so



    doug Sosa: Our failure to support russia after glasnost, just to exploit, was one of the most serious mistakes for the US.
    Caledonia Heron urges those registered, to vote and vote often :)
    Pema Pera: arrogance of power, classic human trait, in all fairy tales and mythologies . . . .
    Maxine Walden: yes, thinking about it, it is rather amazing that we are where we are re nearly having an Afro-American in the White House
    Pema Pera: Afro-Euro-American?
    Caledonia Heron: I'm looking at it as bumping up the IQ in Exec branch considerably
    Pema Pera: I wish I could vote, Cal !
    doug Sosa: IQ is helpful.
    Pema Pera: Ah, talking about RL, RL is calling me . . . .
    doug Sosa: Notice the moon rising in the space ahead of me, perhaps you can't see it yet.
    Pema Pera: good seeing you all, sorry to have to leave!
    Caledonia Heron: :) Pema, maybe no vote, but you definitely have a voice :)
    doug Sosa: RL has its demands..
    Maxine Walden: yes, see you Pema
    Caledonia Heron: bye Pema :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Cal, for sure
    Maxine Walden: good comment, Cal
    doug Sosa: meet RL with pleasure.
    Pema Pera: see y'all soon again!



    doug Sosa: back to the pajama party
    Caledonia Heron: lol
    Caledonia Heron: 2 million people have voted in my state already
    Maxine Walden: vote by mail, that is nearly universal in my state as well, Washington state
    Maxine Walden: bet lots of folks will be up for awhile next Tuesday night
    Caledonia Heron: you will likely go "blue" :) I am in a "blue" city in a "red" state :(
    doug Sosa: why do people still vote Red?
    Caledonia Heron: I was listening to NPR about voting and a common word for red voters is "fear" of blue ideas
    Maxine Walden: fundamentalism, maybe doug...resistance to change, loyalty to the past
    Maxine Walden: fear of the new
    doug Sosa: but blue also fear red ideas.
    Caledonia Heron: it's outside their comfort, even if red holds no positive upside for them
    Maxine Walden: 'how my family has always voted...'
    Caledonia Heron: there is a big schism in the red world I think .... those who hew to trad red and those more fundamentalist righteous red
    Caledonia Heron: red used to be pretty intellectually based
    doug Sosa: Red fears big govt, blue fears big biz and big military. each accuses the other, ccancelling each other out, and bigness wins.
    Maxine Walden: can imagine that as so, Cal and yes, doug



    doug Sosa: My concern is that, in order to hold it together, Obama too will be a centrist, integrate large systems president.
    Caledonia Heron: I can see that Doug ... blue does adhere in some form to the notion that we are responsible for our and others well being ... that the sum is larger than the part, that there is social responsibility
    doug Sosa: Maintining the core of the financial wealth we now have, and the "progressive" will be sacrificed to system integrity.
    Caledonia Heron: red often sounds like me me me
    Caledonia Heron: I think we should expect some kind of middle ground, where we can meet on issues
    Maxine Walden: yes, meet on issues rather than be divided by them
    Caledonia Heron: exactly, how can we frame the issue for the greater good
    Maxine Walden: the need for social responsibility but also individual accountability...both are needed in my view
    Caledonia Heron: totally agree Maxine
    doug Sosa: The right is already setting us up for a split between "socialism" and "freedom."
    Caledonia Heron: hyperbole to exagerate fear imo Doug
    Maxine Walden: I find Obama's notions of 'all being part of the whole' rather than factions to be hopeful
    doug Sosa: Obama's main srength is his deeply felt desire for inclusiveness and lack of anger.
    Maxine Walden: agree very much doug
    Maxine Walden: we really need that even-tempered state of mind at the helm
    Caledonia Heron: yes, that we are one nation that can work together ... I am so over everything being divided up in our country
    doug Sosa: He is the most interesting candidate in our lifetimes, and the challenges very severe.
    Maxine Walden: yes and yes, doug



    doug Sosa: and I must rise and go now
    Caledonia Heron: ok, nice to see you Doug :)
    doug Sosa: bless.
    Maxine Walden: actually it is about time for me as well. RL calls...bye doug
    Caledonia Heron: ok, shall we call it a day?
    Maxine Walden: think so, interesting discussion, as always, Cal. Always enjoy our conversations
    Caledonia Heron: same here :) see you soon :)
    Maxine Walden: good, be well, see you soon
    Caledonia Heron: bye :)
    Maxine Walden: bye

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