2008.11.30 13:00 - Humility and Arrogance

 The goc at this guardian meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers.  

When I got to the Pavilion, Wol was already there.We greeted each other and wondered about the fountain

Wol Euler: hello maxine
Maxine Walden: Wol, what a razzy title you have today
Maxine Walden: have today...love it
Wol Euler: :)
Maxine Walden: want to keep the fountain this way?
Wol Euler: a bit of fun, to cheer myself up.
Wol Euler: as you wish :) 

We are soon joined by Pema, Umbriel, Stevenaia, Corvuscorva

Pema Pera: Hi Wol and Maxine!
Maxine Walden: (oh, forgot what Storm told us re changing the fountain. ) Hi, Pema
Wol Euler: hello pema
Maxine Walden: Pema, is the fountain OK for you?
Maxine Walden: I kind of like it as is
Pema Pera: I'm happy any way :)
Maxine Walden: ah, thanks for the tip! Yes forgot
stevenaia Michinaga: hello all
Maxine Walden: hi, steve
stevenaia Michinaga: (only seeing Wol at the moment)
Pema Pera: Hi Steve and Umbriel and Corvi!
Wol Euler: hello steve, umbriel, corvi
Maxine Walden: yes, hi Umbriel and Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Wol, Umbriel, Pema, Steve, Maxine.

Lots of greetings go around

Wol Euler: /hug corvu
Wol gives Corvuscorva a big hug.
Umbriel Levenque: uh... hugs
Corvuscorva Nightfire jumps up and down in happiness to see Wol again, finally.
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Wol Euler: it's been nearly a week :(
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, sadly.
Wol Euler: anyway, come and sit :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Corvi

I observe Pema's couple of postings to the guardian group one about the PaB practice ad SL and one about a weeklong retreat next summer. 

Maxine Walden: Pema, interesting postings from you that last couple of days
Pema Pera: Thanks, Maxine; any comments/ideas/suggestions?
stevenaia Michinaga: you to Maxine
Maxine Walden: I sent a response to your first posting, the one re PaB and SL. Still thinking about the weeklong retreat
Wol Euler: oh yes, that is a great idea. I am sorely tempted.
Maxine Walden: think a week long retreat might be very intriguing, also probably transforming
Wol Euler thinks getting up at 5 am is very hard work.
Umbriel Levenque: ^^ not if you go to bed earlier
Maxine Walden: but, Pema, could we ask you about that 'provocative comment' in the other posting, re leapfrogging all that has come before?
Pema Pera: oh, sure, that's a mysterious statement, no?
Umbriel Levenque: Yes seriously mysterious Pema ^^
Maxine Walden: it can be taken several ways...yes
Pema Pera: here it is: "We leapfrog all forms of practice done by all great practitioners in all traditions that have ever existed, and we claim that it is meaningful to start at their end, to make their end our beginning."
Pema Pera: how would you like to take it, Maxine?

Perhaps I introduce the topic of arrogance, but we seem to then enter into a lively discussion of arrogance vs humility

Maxine Walden: I responded that the cautious me feels it important to mention that any leapfrogging be done in the atmosphere of humility, because it could also be read as one of arragance
Maxine Walden: arrogance
Pema Pera: oh, absolutely! ANYTHING we say here can be _totally_ misunderstood very easily . . . . and it is good to remind ourselves of that and stay aware of it
Hana Hendrassen: hallo
Umbriel Levenque: Hey Hana ^^
Wol Euler: hello hana
Maxine Walden: yes, because it seems so important to appreciate all the thought and experience of thousands of years...

Then Pema suggests going beyond humility and arrogance, something I ask him to clarify 

Pema Pera: the only way that my sentence makes sense is to go beyond both humility and arrogance
Pema Pera: no other way . . . .
Pema Pera: hi Hana!
Pema Pera: Good seeing you again!
Hana Hendrassen waves cheerfully
Umbriel Levenque: ^_^
Maxine Walden: I am not sure what you mean, 'beyond' humility and arrogance
Pema Pera: You see, there are two parts to all those great practitioners: 1) what they did; 2) what they said after they did it
Pema Pera: (and all this roughly, and relatively speaking . . . .)
Pema Pera: With respect to 1), what they did, my sentence seems absolutely wrong

And Pema does clarify 

Pema Pera: but with respect to 2), what they said at the end of their struggles, my sentence is in accord with what they said
Pema Pera: namely that there is nothing to do, and that Being IS, as a concrete resource:
Pema Pera: always already in this way
Pema Pera: Question is: can we move from 1) to 2) . . . . without derailing . . . . quite a challenge
Maxine Walden: derailing being...?
Pema Pera: derailing on the relative level, by becoming arrogant
Pema Pera: by strengthening our relative being . . . . moving away from seeing Being, from Being seeing
Maxine Walden: yes, I understand that concern 

And we seem to discuss again arrogance and how close to pride it is 

Pema Pera: easy to become proud of being involved in PaB, on the fast track . . . VERY dangerous in fact
Umbriel Levenque creates a notecard containing the eamil for Hana
Hana Hendrassen: ookinii
Maxine Walden: yes, very dangerous I would agree, because then one is really lost in pride/arrogance and basically faces collapse
Hana Hendrassen: ty
Umbriel Levenque: Pleasure ^^
Maxine Walden: this may be one reason why it is so important to go slowly, as you advise so frequently
Pema Pera: and all of us are skirting danger, each session we are here, and our challenge is to help each other avoid that danger -- and it helps to see that that danger, too, is part of Being, and that from Being's viewpoint there is no danger . . .
Pema Pera: yes, Maxine
Pema Pera: not forcing, wu-wei, letting Being see . . . .

We then begin to discuss whether arrogance and humility are in the eye of the beholder, some of us thinking this to be so, and others feeling that arrogance and humility are internal states of mind 

stevenaia Michinaga: but doesn;t humility become arrogance only when it it preceived by others as such? Impossible to control the perceptions of others
Maxine Walden: my thought, Steve, is that humility can become arrogance is we feel so privileged to be so humble, etc...of course we cannot control others' perceptions,
Maxine Walden: but if we fall into the trap of 'what do they think of us' we may slip toward arrogance and narcissistic concern
stevenaia Michinaga: privileged humility.... I need a moment with that one
Pema Pera: yes, like attempts at compassion can become arrogant, possessive, vindictive, etc, rather easily
Umbriel Levenque: Hey Moon ^^
Pema Pera: hi Moon!
Maxine Walden: Steve, sort of like 'am I appearing humble enough? '
Hana Hendrassen: hi Moon!
Wol Euler: hello moon
Maxine Walden: hi moon
Corvuscorva Nightfire perks up.
stevenaia Michinaga: not a question the truly humble will be asking
Maxine Walden: right, steve!.
Wol Euler: yes, I am lost here. Are we concerned with what we -are- (as well as we can judge it) or with how others judge it?
Pema Pera: but who of us is truly humble, Steve? Certainly not me . . . :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Moon
Wol Euler strokes moon's ears gently.
Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz

The discussion continues with some opinions becoming more intense including my own.And it may be that others then are beginning to feel that these intensely held views are a bit arrogant! 

Pema Pera: we all easily tend to fall into arrogance, I think, or whatever way of falling out of balance -- Wol, I think that was the core point
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if humility is like arrogance, in the eye of the onlooker
Maxine Walden: please say more, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: for instance weather the Dali Lama is arrogant or humble will depend on who evaluates, the Chinese government, for instance, or the majority of the world
stevenaia Michinaga: *whether
Maxine Walden: ah, but what about how he feels himself? Do you think he can feel arrogant at times, better than the Chinese, but not at other times?
stevenaia Michinaga: hard for me to answer for him
Maxine Walden: Guess my only concern about humility vs arrogance is that when I am feeling arrogant I am much more concerned with power, being better, what the other thinks, because I have lost the compass of my inner humble self, seeking understanding and being
Moon Fargis: "the ignorance, and acquisitiveness is the doom of human mankind"
Maxine Walden: it is staying in tune with my quiet inner quest for me and not letting myself get too excited, strident...arrogant...that sort of thing which feels important
Maxine Walden: actually for me it is not arrogance so much as doubt/dread which tends to derail me more...not sure for others, but think that is my tendency
stevenaia Michinaga: we need an arrogance/Humility meter, lile thses little numbers above our head, so others can let us know how we come across
Pema Pera: :)
Maxine Walden: maybe so, Steve
Wol Euler: would we trust and believe their ratings?
stevenaia Michinaga: how can we deny them?
Pema Pera: we can be mirrors for each other, yes -- like in the case of arrogance, it is part of arrogance not to see that you are (subtly) arrogance, oftentimes . . .
Pema Pera: *arrogant
stevenaia Michinaga: is it our intent or how we are preceived that matters?
Maxine Walden: oh, our intent
Umbriel Levenque wonders if humility springs from doubts
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders of arrognace springs from doubt...smile
Pema Pera: our intent combined with seeing enough to realize the intent
Umbriel Levenque: Too fast for me steve ^^
stevenaia Michinaga: if we oare misread, then our word probably fail us more than our intents
stevenaia Michinaga: or, our typiing, in my case
Maxine Walden: could be, Steve, but we may be mis-read and still true to our intents, it seems to me
Wol Euler: that is what I was aiming at, Maxine. Misreading is so very common...
Maxine Walden: and hopefully we remain guided by our inner compass, our intents, hopes, trustings
Pema Pera: and learn to express ourselves better, over time
Maxine Walden: right, Wol.
stevenaia Michinaga: as is true for finding the "a common set of words" for Being
stevenaia Michinaga: a not so easy task

We also turn to Faith and trust as important elements 

Umbriel Levenque: And I've also learnt to have "faith in something outside oneself" as a friend put it the other day
Maxine Walden: faith toward the outside, while also faith toward inner companions?
Umbriel Levenque: beyond 'I' as I understood it Maxine
Maxine Walden: I see, UmbrielUmbriel Levenque: As well as trust in one's innate wisdom
Maxine Walden: perhaps it seems arrogant to others when I place trust in my inner companions, as if that is self-centered
Wol Euler: hello gen
Maxine Walden: but it seems to me that we may find faith in several places, inner and outer...but others may differ about that considerably
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
Maxine Walden: hi, gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hi All :)
Hana Hendrassen: hi Gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Hana
Umbriel Levenque: Perhaps such distinction is not always accurate Maxine... I just realised at times faith is needed... not just compassion/wisdom
Umbriel Levenque: How I distinguished*
Maxine Walden: thanks for attempting to clarify, Umbriel
Umbriel Levenque: np ^^

And courage.But we then return to faith and perhaps fundamentalism.I then wonder whether my strongly held views seem to be arrogant, and feel from the laughter that such has been the group's perception. 

Maxine Walden: yes, for me faith of the first description is really more toward fundamentalism which for me is more re power than faith
Umbriel Levenque: ah yes, he also called that faith 'courage'... perhaps that's more accurate
Umbriel Levenque: I need that at times...
Pema Pera: faith is a funny thing -- there are two kinds of faith: faith that what you're doing is the absolute right thing, in a dogmatic way; and faith that what you are doing is totally worthwhile doing, even if it will turn out that your initial ideas were wrong . . .
Pema Pera: scientists in their research ideally are driven by faith of the second kind
Pema Pera: and they perceive religious types as having faith of the first kind
Pema Pera: hence the clashes . . . .
Hana Hendrassen: that's a great way to sum it up
Maxine Walden: when one must be right or one is dead wrong, that does not allow for uncertainty and exploration into the unknown, it seems to me. Faith ad trust I think only apply when we can be friendly with not knowing
Maxine Walden: but I have strong feelings about this which may seem arrogant (!)
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: not really.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Hana Hendrassen smiles

Pema tries to soften the situation.

Pema Pera: A colleague of mine said: "one of the great pleasures of science is to prove someone wrong, and the greatest pleasure is proving yourself to be wrong, since then you really learned something"
Maxine Walden: smiles
Umbriel Levenque: ^^
Moon Fargis babbles in his sleep "know is a burden, people have to carry, but burdens can be made lighter when they are shared"
Umbriel Levenque: heheheh my ignorance is bliss 

Issues of sharing, and ignorance... 

Pema Pera: "shared joy double joy, shared pain half pain"
Maxine Walden: the sharing is so important...
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, true
Hana Hendrassen: "ignorance is bliss"... there also could be two kinds of ignorance: that which you don't want to know, and that which you are content to be unable to know
Pema Pera: yes, Hana, so true!
Umbriel Levenque: ah... ^^
Maxine Walden: interesting, Hana
Hana Hendrassen: my two cents for the day, hehe
Pema Pera: :)
Umbriel Levenque: ^_^
Pema Pera: L$ 5
Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
Hana Hendrassen grins

And then trying to avoid an awkwardness from last week, I seem to create an even greater one, in that after my comment no one speaks for some time.What was meant as a shared insight was taken as a mild rebuke.I felt in retrospect that I must have seemed a somewhat abrasive presence in the group today, very different from my inner sense or indeed intent. 

Maxine Walden: Last week I mentioned needing to go in 5 minutes and then felt I had to go because everyone was saying goodbye...so will here say I need to go in 5 min but will stay til then; will take the chatlog when I go, andmaybe someone could send anything thereafter to me for inclusion in the chatlog
Pema Pera: :-)
Wol Euler chuckles guiltily. Sure, I'll do ghat.
Wol Euler: *that
Maxine Walden: thanks, Wol
Moon Fargis meows "Meow Meow Meow Meow"
Hana Hendrassen chuckles at Moon
Moon Fargis: *giggles*
Maxine Walden: (am beginning to think everyone is waiting for me to go before carrying on with the conversation....)
Wol Euler laughs
Wol Euler: oh dear.
Pema Pera: Hi Shaporaz!
Maxine Walden: hi, Shaporaz
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t wnat to be the 1st one to say bye
Pema Pera: come join us if you like
Snaporaz Paule: Hi everybody
Hana Hendrassen: hi Shaporaz
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Maxine Walden: I will be going now, so everyone can say goodbye(!)
Hana Hendrassen: aww
genesis Zhangsun: bye Maxine!
Pema Pera: haha, bye Maxine!
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Maxine Walden: bye all
Moon Fargis: hehe
Wol Euler chukles. Bye maxine, enjoy the evening
Hana Hendrassen: bye Maxine