2009.05.04 13:00 - Stepping Stones to Being

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

{We ended up talking about codependent arising again. I am impressed and gratified that anyone would want to tackle this topic, since it requires sustained attention and practice for a long period of time and on a great many levels. It’s one of my favorite studies, but I’m not sure it’s ideally suited to PaB’s format and emphasis. After I left, the subject of its relation to PaB’s “Being” was also considered. Perhaps we will be able to discuss that point more in the future.}

Stim Morane: Hi Scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim
Stim Morane: This is cozy ...
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: Hi Sky!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sky
Sky Szimmer: hi there
Stim Morane: How are you today?
Sky Szimmer: good. can't stay long but thought i'd stop by to say hello
Stim Morane: Good. It's nice to see you.
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello QT
Qt Core: hi all
Stim Morane: Hi QT
Sky Szimmer: ditto
Sky Szimmer: ditto.
Sky Szimmer: hi
Rish Bleriot: hi all ..
Qt Core: hi Rish
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Rish
Stim Morane: Hello Rish
Rish Bleriot: whats the topic today ?
sophia Placebo: greetings
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
Rish Bleriot: hello sophia ?
Stim Morane: Rish, I'm not sure that there is a topic. Have you attended this group before?
Rish Bleriot: yes
Stim Morane: OK, good.
Stim Morane: Well, we'll see what comes up.
Stim Morane: Hi sophia
Stim Morane: I'll be right back ...
sophia Placebo: hi wol
Wol Euler sneaks in quietly and whispers a "hello"
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
Qt Core: hi sophia, wol
Rish Bleriot: hi wol
sophia Placebo: you look dangerous with that blackness
Wol Euler: me? naaah
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
sophia Placebo: lol
Wol Euler: hello tarmel
Rish Bleriot: hi tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel
sophia Placebo: hi tarmel
Stim Morane: Hi Wol, Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: Hi everyone
Wol Euler: hello stim, wb
Stim Morane: So ... does someone have a discussion topic in mind?
sophia Placebo: hi fef
Wol Euler: hello fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Heya All :)
Tarmel Udimo: hi fefonz
Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: is this the pre-90sec silence period? :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
sophia Placebo: silence is good ....... or is it a bad sign ?
Sky Szimmer: i am interested in discussing the topic raised in the video The Secret
Stim Morane: Don't know it.
Stim Morane: Can you say more, Sky?
Wol Euler: do you have a URL for us?
Sky Szimmer: basically our relative reality depends on our outlook. so we manifest our own destiny
Fefonz Quan: (i thought iwe could continue with the dependant arising from last week)
Sky Szimmer: no. no URL.
Stim Morane: Fefonz, that 's also possible. But I have said since this topic first came up that I didn't think we could do very much with it here ... it's quite complicated.
Stim Morane: I mentioned it last time because it was more or less explicitly present in a comment Gaya made.
Fefonz Quan: i thoguht we could discuss this in relation to Being, emptiness etc.
Stim Morane: Well ... would you like to start? Meanwhile, we can consider Sky's point of interest.
Fefonz Quan: it might lead to the same issue :)
Sky Szimmer: please go on Fefonz.
Stim Morane: yes, there's some connection ...
Fefonz Quan: for some time here we talked about 'things as we see' are not real in some sense.
Fefonz Quan: yet we then had a lot of confusion with 'in which way they are not real'
Fefonz Quan: and i thought that one way to look at the 'no inherent existance ' of things as we see, is through dependant arising
Stim Morane: Yes, that's true
Fefonz Quan: so it might clarify some of the fog around our issues of existance, illusions, Being.
Fefonz Quan: but for that we might earn from get to see wat is dependant arising
Fefonz Quan: and the ball is in your court Stim ;-)
Stim Morane: When this topic of codependent arising popped up here in PaB, I mentioned that you could start with a simple case, one in which you are angry at someone. The point there is that you can come to see that the “person” who is so annoying is often largely in our mind, not in the world. Or is in the world but only in ways that are circumstantially defined, not fundamental and persistent. Etc … there are many forms and levels of codependent arising.
Stim Morane: But everything, inner and outer, that we usually deal with is subject to some version of this point.
Stim Morane: I spent decades investigating it, both in formal meditation practice and in ordinary life as I was walking around, etc.
Stim Morane: I'm not sure how far we can take it purely as a discussion topic, without lots of "practice"
Stim Morane: Do you have some idea of what my simple examples are meant to suggest?
Fefonz Quan: i would say it is easy to see on the 'psychological level'. like the person that annoys me. surely this 'annoyens' is mine as it is his (or maybe much more mine)
Stim Morane: But you think there is some other domain that is more straightforwardly real, as given?
Fefonz Quan: lets take a car/stone/you pick it
Stim Morane: OK ... then?
Fefonz Quan: the stone is there. maybe if i like it or not, it depends on my mind, but it is there when i leave the room too (and others stay)
Fefonz Quan: [13:29] Fefonz Quan: the stone is there. maybe if i like it or not, it depends on my mind, but it is there when i leave the room too (and others stay)
Stim Morane: But physics would say that the “stone” is an appearance, a provisional and poorly-defined reference to something that is better understood in terms of atoms, etc etc. And the properties of the stone are as given to our senses. And the sense of “there” that you mention, the spatio-temporal locus, is also subject to these analyses. So …
Stim Morane: It's not so simple as you suggest.
Wol Euler: But the atoms that we perceive to be a stone, do exist?
Fefonz Quan: (sure, i know, i try to spread it out slowly)
Stim Morane: No, the atoms are in turn subject to the same critique, or qualification.
Stim Morane: Etc etc
Stim Morane: This doesn't mean all these things are illusions.
Stim Morane: They are real, indeed, or useful in a theoretical sense (in the case of atoms).
Fefonz Quan: but the fact that the stone if made of atoms, doesn't make it unreal. so it is a pile of atoms. wtill there, this pile
Stim Morane: But for contemplative traditions, the point is that we can go beyond the ordinary mind and all the things that are codependent with it, including the theoretical entities etc of science.
Stim Morane: If we skip this emphasis on advanced contemplative realization, then the whole discussion collapses back to some basic comments of the sort I illustrated with the "anger" case.
Stim Morane: In either case, I agree completely that all sorts of things "exist" or are "real".
Fefonz Quan: so we don't want to skip it Stim, just get some grip of it
Stim Morane: The only issue is to see more directly what that does and doesn't mean.
Fefonz Quan: what is this realization you are mentioning here?
Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz. Unfortunately, things on the level of the anger can be easily considered here, whereas the "stone" etc case requires more care and eventually, sustained contemplative practice.
Stim Morane: So I suggested the simple case first.
Fefonz Quan: we had some(very short i would say humbly) experience with appearances, and we discussed it here for some time
Fefonz Quan: (sorry, go on with that case_
Fefonz Quan: _
Fefonz Quan: )
Stim Morane: Oh, "realization" can mean many things. But one is that we can actually learn to see codependent arising in various ways.
Stim Morane: Yes, I know the group has been working with "appearances" a lot.
Stim Morane: So perhaps my comments are old hat.
Fefonz Quan: can you say more about these various ways?
Stim Morane: Take the anger case first. It's easy for people to listen to that one, and agree about it.
Stim Morane: But what I'm recommending is to SEE it.
Stim Morane: That's quite different.
Stim Morane: If you actually do see it happening, directly, then you can also gradually learn to see codependent arising as applying to "other people", walls and floors, stones, etc
Stim Morane: But this is much harder. We're basically talking about going beyond the ordinary mind with its "thing" orientation.
Stim Morane: This doesn't dismiss things as unreal, it just puts them in a larger perspective.
Stim Morane: That involves many levels.
Fefonz Quan: do you mean the the 'person' arises codependantly on us, or our anger arise codependantly on us?
Stim Morane: everything is subject to codepent arising, in many different ways.
Fefonz Quan: can you 'define' or say some words abut what codependant arising is?
Stim Morane: what seems to be an independent, self-existent thing, actually is present in a way that involves other factors.
Stim Morane: Like the mind, the senses, the context, our previous experience, etc
Stim Morane: This is not an idea that goes very far within our ordinary world view. It just seems obvious and trivial.
Fefonz Quan nods
Stim Morane: It only becomes interesting with a lot of meditation practice.
Stim Morane: Then it's possible to let other dimensions in ... and that's interesting and important for our self-understanding and fulfillment.
Stim Morane: We should probably see what other topics are looming here at this point ...
Fefonz Quan: it can be seen that we, or fruits for examples, are dependant of the air we breath, teh sun that shine on the plants we eat, our parents etc.
Fefonz Quan: i guess you aim higher than this
Stim Morane: Yes
Stim Morane: I'm not talking about ordinary or even scientific versions of interdependence at all.
Stim Morane: This is why I say it's really a serious "practice" issue.
Fefonz Quan: so you say me previous 'dependance' is useless observe?
Stim Morane: I'm sorry ... I didn't quite get that.
Fefonz Quan: [13:47] Fefonz Quan: it can be seen that we, or fruits for examples, are dependant of the air we breath, teh sun that shine on the plants we eat, our parents etc.
Fefonz Quan: is this view useless to contemplate?
Stim Morane: Perhaps it's a start. But it basically doesn't require any contemplative insight at all.
Stim Morane: Contemplation is more direct ...
Stim Morane: and inclusive of what the mind is contributing.
Tarmel Udimo: It seems pretty clear from what Stim is saying that to reach beyond the ordinary perceptions of the mind, like this is a rock and it is real beI'm really not sure what you're really asking for fefonz?
Tarmel Udimo: sorry double sentence there
Tarmel Udimo: Fefonz noone can give you the answer which you are looking for
Scathach Rhiadra: is it more to do with our perceptions of things , what we project onto things?
Fefonz Quan: maybe i ask for more concrete examples of how to contemplate etc.
Fefonz Quan: when we discusses appearances, it helped us practice and see things. why is cod-aris different?
Wol Euler: may I play devil's advocate for a moment, and suggest that this idea is becoming an attachment? I think we are spending a lot of time and an increasing amount of emotion on it, without even knowing what it is. Why do wo do this?
Stim Morane: Yes, you're right, Wol.
Fefonz Quan: we also spend a lot of time with being, appearances etc. i dont see why this is so different
Stim Morane: It's not different in essence. It's just harder, it has a higher entry level ...
Tarmel Udimo: What is it that you are really asking fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: (ok, they are shorter words ;-))
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe because it is a more specifically Buddhist thing, better considered in RL?
Fefonz Quan: i thought Being is more harder, but maybe that's me
Tarmel Udimo: I don't think its about co-dependent arising
Stim Morane: Fefonz, I greatly appreciate your interest, especially since this is an important traditional topic. But it is difficult.
Fefonz Quan: for me it all come to teh same thing tarmel (in that issue) - emptiness and different way to approach it.
Stim Morane: Oh, yes, Being is more advanced ... IF you're really talking about what Being is. But the word is fuzzy and can mean all sorts of things on many levels.
Fefonz Quan: ways*
Tarmel Udimo: Sorry fefonz, I don't accept that, only because what Stim has said seems very clear to me
Stim Morane: My advice is to stick with the anger case for a while ... actually practice with it. Then maybe we can find a basis for more of a discussion.
Stim Morane: Would that be OK?
Tarmel Udimo: If you wisj to investigate conetmplative approach you will have to practise and speak from that place
Fefonz Quan: sounds good to me Stim
Wol Euler nods
Stim Morane: It’s always interesting to discuss these ancient contemplative insights with people in the modern world. When a teacher in the ancient world explains codependent arising, she starts with things like anger, grasping, attachment to the “self”, etc. But in the modern world, people want to immediately start with the harder cases, like airplanes, without doing the practice involved in the simpler cases. It’s understandable but amusing. I did the same thing myself, when I was learning this stuff.
Stim Morane: "Being" is very advanced, but I think we should admit that it is often discussed here without actually catching the mind first.
Stim Morane: That won't work with "codependent arising"
Fefonz Quan: So getting back to anger like you said, how can we practice it?
Stim Morane: Find an example of a strong feeling or judgment or opinion etc re something in the world. Try to see the involvement of your own mind. Gradually you can learn to apply this insight to your sense of self too. That would be great. I know this has been discussed in PaB, but again, really doing it may be something quite different.
Stim Morane: Contemplation, and I think, PaB too, are based on the principle that you can go beyond the ordinary mind altogether.
Stim Morane: First you have to see our entrenched use of it.
Stim Morane: Anyway, when this topic first came up a while ago, I urged everyone to "stop before it was too late!"
Stim Morane: :)
Wol Euler: I remember :)
Stim Morane: It's not too late.
Tarmel Udimo: you did:)
Scathach Rhiadra: might be for some:)
Stim Morane: uh oh
Stim Morane: Sorry.
Wol Euler: perhaps we should just say that this is differential calculus and we are still working on the 11 times table?
Fefonz Quan: so you mean to see how our mind's ideas/perceptions are defining this judhemnt
Stim Morane: perhaps
Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz ... to really see this is not the same as thinking that it's true.
Stim Morane: And then there's the next step, letting that investment of the mind subside.
Stim Morane: And even THAT would still be subject to codependent arising!
Fefonz Quan: sometimes my mind pops up anger, like automata, like i wasn't 'doing' it purposely
Stim Morane: Yes, that's quite the norm, I'd think.
Stim Morane: But we can see more re that ...
Tarmel Udimo: The more one practises the more one realises one only needs very simple things to contemplate and work with, this is something I have finally surrendered to
Wol Euler: yes, I find myself responding angrily to statements that haven't even been made yet :)
Stim Morane: Yes. I agree completely, Tarmel.
Stim Morane: Great accomplishment, Wol!
Stim Morane: :)
Tarmel Udimo: heheh WoL
Stim Morane: Sorry, gotta go.
Wol Euler: yes, I know it's silly, that is why I'm here.
Fefonz Quan: they have been made in your mind Wol :)
Wol Euler: bye stim, thank you
Tarmel Udimo: The fact that you see this is a great step
Stim Morane: See you all another time, perhaps.
Tarmel Udimo: bye Stim
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Stim
Fefonz Quan: Thnaks Stim, Bye !
Stim Morane: Bye everyone
Fefonz Quan: ok tarmel, now i am ready to be stoned :)
Wol Euler: there are no stones ...
Fefonz Quan: i hope that the fact that tarmel vanished ubruptly, along with what she said, doesn't mean i got her angry
Wol Euler: no, she accidentally TPed :)
Scathach Rhiadra: no, I doubt it:)
Wol Euler grins. wb
Fefonz Quan: adn Wol, you know all!
Wol Euler: I'm a pretty fast IMer
Scathach Rhiadra: wb Tarmel
Fefonz Quan: wb Tarmel :)
Scathach Rhiadra: so, have you started reading your books yet Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: a bit, yes.
Fefonz Quan: Tarmel, i did feel like you disapproved my questions
Wol Euler: I was surprised by how angry you seemed to be getting. Typos and grammar are the body language of SL, at one point you lost both of them.
Fefonz Quan: infact i am not angry at all, and typos are my major :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods, that is true:)
Fefonz Quan: and i guess my SL body language is not so developed
Wol Euler: mmm, no, there are kinds of mistakes that people make. Transposing lettters, multiple letters :)
Wol Euler: hitting nmeighbouring keys :)
Wol Euler: when people get excited they make different kinds of mistakes, uncharacteristic mistakes
Fefonz Quan: i can be excited and not angry :)
Tarmel Udimo: OK trying again
Wol Euler: :)
Tarmel Udimo: I lost my ability to chat
Tarmel Udimo: had to log out and log back in
Fefonz Quan: good to have you back chatting :)
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
Tarmel Udimo: I wasn't dissapproving of your questions fefonz
Tarmel Udimo: I was observing that Stim was giving you a lot of good responses to what you asked
Tarmel Udimo: but it felt like you were not hearing them
Tarmel Udimo: or they were not satisfying what you were looking for
Fefonz Quan: well, first of all i liked Stims responses and thought they were very intruiging and to the point.
Fefonz Quan: and i am glad he did talk about it
Tarmel Udimo: (is today Monday SL?)
Fefonz Quan: ye[
Fefonz Quan: yep
Wol Euler: still :)
Tarmel Udimo: opps, jsut made a booboo
Tarmel Udimo: sorry please continue Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: yet, i felt that somehow Stim is not giving direct/practical answers to work with, pointing some of teh energy in the direction of 'this is to hard and we should avoid it'
Wol Euler: ... which might actually be true?
Wol Euler: (just a thought ...)
Fefonz Quan: i can say on a personal level, that this is among the most exciting issues for me, and another important thing:
Fefonz Quan: for me, at least until i met Pema's Being ideas, dependant arising seemed like the easiest way to see emptiness, much more clear and gradual than 'Being"
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: So i find it interesting why others here define that as 'very hard' and being as 'graspable'
Fefonz Quan: 'Being'*
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, has anyone ever heard a clear definiton of Being?
Fefonz Quan: no, but we discuss it here a lot. so why not discussing things that might be even easier to see/practice?
Fefonz Quan: (and might pont to the same direction)
Scathach Rhiadra: exactly :)
Fefonz Quan: point*
Qt Core: time to go, bye all
Wol Euler: bye qt
Scathach Rhiadra: good night QT:)
Fefonz Quan: Bye Qt
Tarmel Udimo: bye Qt
Tarmel Udimo: Being is a portal for those who are not versed in Buddhism
Tarmel Udimo: co-dependant arising is at the core of Buddhism
Tarmel Udimo: so it somtimes feel like perhaps this is not the right forum for this discussion
Fefonz Quan: these are just words Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: well they maybe just words but this is my opion
Scathach Rhiadra: so should the Buddhists just not be here, muddying the waters, so to speak?
Fefonz Quan: i see what you say, Tarmel, but i can't say that Being' or 'appearances' are more far from Buddhism than cod-aris
Wol Euler: god no, I would hate to see any one feel that they shouldn't be here.
Tarmel Udimo: no I didn't say that I'm suggesting that PaB needs to encompass
Wol Euler: sorry, *Being no ...
Tarmel Udimo: a wider net
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: and being allows for that because it means everyone can particpate
Fefonz Quan: i would say they all point to the same direction, hence worth exploring.
Wol Euler: a great part of the joy of PaB for me has been to see where these beliefs overlap
Fefonz Quan: i wouldn't put believes in...
Tarmel Udimo: yes Feonz of course its important for you
Tarmel Udimo: but you know we spent the whole hour
Tarmel Udimo: on this, it became a dialogue between you and Stim
Tarmel Udimo: fair enough
Fefonz Quan: yes, i am sorry if that bothered you.
Tarmel Udimo: but I suspect it won't stop at one session
Tarmel Udimo: it didn't bother me
Scathach Rhiadra: heh, i have heard the whole sometimes devoted to shopping:)
Scathach Rhiadra: hour*
Tarmel Udimo: I am using it as an example of why it may not be approriate all the time
Fefonz Quan: i am happy you bring it up, because if it is seen as such, i will stop it in one session
Tarmel Udimo: due to the fact that many people in PaB don't have a clue
Wol Euler nods cluelessly
Tarmel Udimo: well maybe leave a gap between sessions:)
Wol Euler: perhaps Stim should have said "this is the wrong forum for this discussion"...
Tarmel Udimo: yes he needs to be specific
Wol Euler: which would be quite a different statement
Wol Euler: ooops
Tarmel Udimo: but he has said this
Fefonz Quan: my only wonder is, that this is not a topic which is different from what we talk a lot about, in other words.
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fefonz Quan: whenwe talk about appearances, in pheno and PaB, and how our mind effect our perception
Fefonz Quan: and how things arise in our consciousness, spontaneously,
Fefonz Quan: and how we can't separate the self from teh outer world
Fefonz Quan: this is all codependant arising.
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: sounds like you've got it
Tarmel Udimo: so are you wanting Stim to????
Fefonz Quan: so we didn't say anything that is 'Buddhism' but not 'PaB'
Fefonz Quan: (didn't anderstand your last sentence Tarmel, sorry)
Fefonz Quan: to what?
Fefonz Quan: understand*
Tarmel Udimo: well it sounds like you understand what it means so what is it that you were wanting from Stim?
Fefonz Quan: well, giving correlations to other concepts and words we use doesn't mean i really see tehm/understand tehm.
Fefonz Quan: i can also write 'Being', and i have much less clue to what that is.
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: i thought that since Stim has a lot of milage with that , theoretical and experimental, he could enlighten us with new exciting ways to practice and see things from another angel
Tarmel Udimo: You sound a lot like myself when I first joined the group, I thought at last someone will have the answers to all my questions
Fefonz Quan: surely not Tarmel, just some new pointers :)
Tarmel Udimo: and I worked myself up into a turmoil for anxiety
Scathach Rhiadra: a new or different slant on things perhaps?
Fefonz Quan: yes, good phrasing Scath thanks. i feel all the time my language is lacking here
Wol Euler: I'm sorry, my dears, but I must leave you. Falling asleep at my desk. Goodnight, take care, be.
Tarmel Udimo: by wol
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Wol:)
Fefonz Quan: Night Wol :)
Wol Euler: or rather: Be.
Tarmel Udimo: have a good sleep
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: 'night all
Tarmel Udimo: well eventually the wonderful thing I discovered is that there are constant pointers
Tarmel Udimo: everywhere
Tarmel Udimo: and it was that I wasn't seeing them
Tarmel Udimo: so new slants yes Scath
Fefonz Quan: So i guess i am ni the right direction Tarmel, following your steps ([14:37] Tarmel Udimo: You sound a lot like myself when I first joined the group, I thought at last someone will have the answers to all my questions) :)
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehehe
Scathach Rhiadra: but new slants doesn't mean that we have to completly ignore old slants
Fefonz Quan: surely not
Tarmel Udimo: no in fact realised no slants needed at all:)
Fefonz Quan likes some slants to start with :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: direct seeing or perception requires none:)
Fefonz Quan: then when you reach the other shore, you can get rid of the slants. (sorry, another buddhist example ;-))
Scathach Rhiadra: direct seeing in Buddhism is very advanced, the path of seeing:)
Tarmel Udimo: sure fefonz
Fefonz Quan: i can only say, that direct seeing and observing is crucial, but i heavily doubt getting to grasp Being as Pema describes ti, without getting introduced to it first
Fefonz Quan: and o spent dozens of lunches with him the last year.
Fefonz Quan: i*
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Tarmel Udimo: must be nice to have lunch and discuss Being Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: much more sweat than the lasy cod-aris if you ask me Tarmel :)
Fefonz Quan: and it is very nice :)
Fefonz Quan: last*
Tarmel Udimo: Now! Virtual Native Lands Discussion - Casual Chat/Walking Tour - 2pm SLT today Monday May 4th, 2009 - Help/Support VNL to bring authentic Native American (NA) culture and indigenous ppls from the N, Central, and South America into SL with events. secondlife:///app/teleport/Native%20...East/195/16/21
Tarmel Udimo: just got this in IM, will go and check it out
Scathach Rhiadra: ok, good night Tarmel:)
Fefonz Quan: Bye Tarmel :)
Tarmel Udimo: bye folks
Fefonz Quan: (good morning?)
Tarmel Udimo: yes its almost 8:00am
Kip Kira: Bye
Fefonz Quan: phew, fefonz wipes some sweat from his forehead
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Scathach Rhiadra: well I think that topic can't be arised again soon:)
Scathach Rhiadra: heehee, meant to say raised
Fefonz Quan: yep, i am a little sorry for that. i still wonder why it raise so much antagonism
Fefonz Quan: raises
Fefonz Quan: (or maybe it is me the raiser ;-00
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it may be too deep for some, or so it seems to me
Fefonz Quan: )
Fefonz Quan: much shallower than Being, that's my point.
Scathach Rhiadra nods agreement
Scathach Rhiadra: but sometimes I feel that a lot of the talking is skirting around Being, never really addresssing anything
Fefonz Quan: yes, that's why i thought cod-aris can be more direct and to the point. but pople Are chewing Being for breakfast, no-time for lunch and no-self for supper, and just a hist of dependatn arising gets them off
Fefonz Quan: hint*
Scathach Rhiadra: haha:)
Scathach Rhiadra: very well said:)
Fefonz Quan: that's really wonderous for me
Fefonz Quan: i think it is a good closing point :)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, good night Fefonz:)
Fefonz Quan: good night Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: /oops, don't know where that came from:)