The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Hamlet Graves, Milakel Resident and myself

Sesshins:

Hamlet Graves: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi Hamlet
Zen Arado: just sorting myself
Hamlet Graves: no rush
Zen Arado: so...how are you?
Hamlet Graves: I am well thank you
Hamlet Graves: how about you ?
Zen Arado: just checking...
Zen Arado: ok..feel a little agitated
Hamlet Graves: about anything in particular ?
Zen Arado: but that's because I have to get up early and rush a bit to make this meeting
Hamlet Graves: you can relax now
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: I have been listening to talks at San Francisco Zen Center
Hamlet Graves: have they been inspiring ?
Zen Arado: my teacher, Paul Haller, is doing a Summer Intensive there
Zen Arado: yes...he is a good teacher I think
Hamlet Graves: very worthwhile, no doubt
Zen Arado: http://blogs.sfzc.org/summerintensive2011/
Zen Arado: it's great the way they can put talks online
Zen Arado: I can listen without having to go there
Zen Arado: they have just commenced sesshin
Hamlet Graves: ::: wonders what a sesshin is ::::
Zen Arado: a Zen retreat
Hamlet Graves: ok :)
Zen Arado: "As noted yesterday, sesshin means to collect the heart/mind. During sesshin, we spend days in silence — meditating, eating, and working in silence, devoting every aspect of the day to the realization of the Buddha Way"
Hamlet Graves: oh yes ....
Zen Arado: I usually go to two of them every year
Zen Arado: here in N.Ireland
Hamlet Graves: how long are the sesshins in NI ?
Zen Arado: they are up to 6 day ones now
Zen Arado: last one I went to in April was 6 day
Hamlet Graves: that sounds very good
Zen Arado: I am ok with the meditation
Zen Arado: but find the access to the place difficult
Hamlet Graves: and the silence ?
Zen Arado: silence is fine
Zen Arado: you get used to it
Hamlet Graves: why is the access difficult ?
Zen Arado: cos I am disabled
Hamlet Graves: do they give you help ?
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: but toilets and shower are difficult
Hamlet Graves: oh yes ... no disabled facilities ?
Zen Arado: I notice they are talking about remote participation on the page I gave you
Zen Arado: they have but they are not very good
Zen Arado: or not adequate for my needs
Zen Arado: I could do this sesshin from home
Hamlet Graves: remote particiaption can be just as fruitful
Zen Arado: but it's more difficult
Zen Arado: I think
Zen Arado: having others around doing the same thing is better
Zen Arado: and too many interruptions at home
Zen Arado: but maybe next time I will plan this
Hamlet Graves: yes .... you can try to instill your home with the spirit of the sesshin
Zen Arado: just thinking I could spend a lot more time in meditation over the next few days
Hamlet Graves: that's always a good thing
Zen Arado: not so difficult if you live alone
Zen Arado: I did a weekend retreat on my own one time
Zen Arado: found it very difficult
Hamlet Graves: since reality is non-dual the degree to which one can participate in a remote activity depends only on the extent to which we believe ourselves to be seprate entities
Hamlet Graves: having said that ....
Hamlet Graves: I am hoping to go to Turkey in October for a retreat with my teacher!
Zen Arado: yeh...there is something better with physical presence isn't there?
Zen Arado: though the physical problems mar retreats a bit for me
Hamlet Graves: yes, because our habitual tendancies are weakened by the collective purpose of the retreat
Zen Arado: but others get sore knees and backs etc
Hamlet Graves: why do their knees and backs become sore ?
Zen Arado: yes..it's easier to get away from our habits away from their usual location
Zen Arado: in a nice little cocoon
Zen Arado: away from usual reality of work etc
Hamlet Graves: are people made to do arduous work ?
Zen Arado: they do work practice (samu) but it isn't all that arduous
Zen Arado: maybe tidying up the gardens arounf the place they have the retreat
Hamlet Graves: right ... a bit physical labour is useful for directing the mind
Zen Arado: they also do yoga for an hour
Hamlet Graves: that sounds very healthy
Zen Arado: yeh it's good to stretch if you are sitting all day
Zen Arado: (though I can't do it)
Hamlet Graves: yes ... how do you find that ?
Zen Arado: I am ok with sitting
Zen Arado: but I have to sit the whole day
Zen Arado: I can't get up and do walking meditation either
Hamlet Graves: I used to go to various yoga (asana) classes
Zen Arado: we tend to associate Yoga with physical stretching nowadays
Zen Arado: and forget it is a whole system
Hamlet Graves: quite ....

Yoga and non-duality:

Zen Arado: Nisargadatta is a Yogic teacher I think
Hamlet Graves: I can't really say
Hamlet Graves: I suppose he is a jnana yogin
Zen Arado: I don't know anything about Yoga
Zen Arado: it's just that he refers to Yoga a lot
Hamlet Graves: Yoga means union, in sanskrit from the dhatu yuj, meaning to yoke or join
Zen Arado: I see
Zen Arado: so a bit like Advaita...non duality
Zen Arado: same idea in Zen
Zen Arado: oneness
Zen Arado: I downloaded a book by Thich Nhat Hahn last night on consciousnees onlu teaching
Hamlet Graves: indeed... but the slight twist is that that which one is seeking to join to, one already is, hence jnana (knowledge) yoga seeks to destoy the ignorance of individuality
Zen Arado: or Manifestation Only Buddhism as he calls it
Zen Arado: yes ,,they say that in Zen too
Hamlet Graves: consciousness only teaching .... that sounds promising
Zen Arado: they teach that there are eight consciousnesses
Zen Arado: first five are the physical senses
Zen Arado: sixth is mind consciousness(perception)
Zen Arado: seventh is manas...part that gives support to mind perception
Zen Arado: eighth is storehouse consciousness (alayavijnana)
Hamlet Graves: brb
Hamlet Graves: back
Hamlet Graves: there are many ways of slicing and the universe
Hamlet Graves: *slicing and dicing
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: I find that most of these Eastern philosophies are saying basically the same thing
Zen Arado: maybe different ways of analysing it
Hamlet Graves: yeah that's true
Zen Arado: one of the main difficulties I have in practice is habit energies
Zen Arado: some habits are so deeply entrenched
Zen Arado: not even aware of them
Hamlet Graves: earth, water, fire, air, ether, manas, buddhi, ahamkara is how krishna does it in the bhagavad gita
Zen Arado: manas comes up as arising from store consciousness
Zen Arado: Hi Mila :)
milakel Resident: tada
Hamlet Graves: hi Mila :)
milakel Resident: hi :)
milakel Resident: am i late? everyone's gone to bed?
Hamlet Graves: we have been the only 2 here since the start
milakel Resident: ah
milakel Resident: quiet one then
milakel Resident: any hot topics? :)
Zen Arado: Nhat Hahn says 'it takes hold of a portion of store consciousness and regards this as a separate discrete entity , a 'self'
milakel Resident: deep :)
Hamlet Graves: yes ...
Zen Arado: and this coases s suffering
Zen Arado: (pity you can't copy from Kindle)
Hamlet Graves: that's right, because the beleif is that one is an individuated entity separate from everything else

Kindle:

milakel Resident: how's you kindle experience, zen?
Zen Arado: good in some ways bad in others
milakel Resident: hamlet, as in separate mind and body?
milakel Resident: zen, the text quality must be excellent
milakel Resident: no copy to sl feature is a bummer though :)
Hamlet Graves: ::: smiles ::::
Zen Arado: yeh electronic ink is easy to read
Zen Arado: and avouds clutter from so many books
milakel Resident: true
Zen Arado: and cheaper to buy books
Zen Arado: get them instantly
Hamlet Graves: yes a separate being with individual consciousness
milakel Resident: dead tree will be rarity in 100 years, i think
Zen Arado: (though they charge Vat on them)
milakel Resident: hamlet, i hope that is true, as well
Zen Arado: and not on paper books)
Zen Arado: yeh environmentally friendlier
Zen Arado: but not as easy to flick through to look for something
milakel Resident: isn't there a slider?
Zen Arado: no
milakel Resident: also search
milakel Resident: hmm
Zen Arado: yeh notice there is a search now
milakel Resident: i've got a nice slider on my android's acrobat reader
Hamlet Graves: that is where the problem lies, the view that there is 'my' consciousness is reflected in countless woes
Zen Arado: maybe I am so used to searching paper books
Zen Arado: yeh..it is the cause of much suffering
milakel Resident: hamlet, taken that mind is separate, can it exist without body?
Hamlet Graves: mind, body are emanations of consciouness, just as waves on the ocean, are emanations of the ocean
milakel Resident: well, at least body you can see and determine in space in time :)

Dualism again:

Zen Arado: you are talking about mind/body dualism Mila
Hamlet Graves: space and time are also emanations :)
milakel Resident: dualism for those who hold that they're separate :)
Zen Arado: we are referring to the 'self' entity that derives from storehouse consciousness
milakel Resident: but yes, body-mind problem
milakel Resident: hmm
milakel Resident: seems related to me
Hamlet Graves: what is this mind-body problem ?
Zen Arado: we look at character traits and actins in the past and invent an imaginary 'me' from this
milakel Resident: uncertainty if mind is a part of body or a separate entity
Zen Arado: comes from Descartes
Zen Arado: Cartesian dualism
Hamlet Graves: ahhh yes
Zen Arado: he separated the two
Hamlet Graves: manfiestation proceeds from the subtle to the gross
Zen Arado: and located the mind in the brain I think
milakel Resident: could also be seen as western school (brain = mind) vs eastern (energy)
Zen Arado: in Buddhism the mind and body are one not two
Hamlet Graves: the materialist view is completely contrary of course
Zen Arado: they say even the heart thinks
Zen Arado: (scientists)
Hamlet Graves: anything that you create has to be conceived by the mind first
Hamlet Graves: so therefore mind is causal with regard to the body
Zen Arado: and so many other parts of the body have rudimentary thought processes
Zen Arado: I'm not so sure of that Hamlet
Hamlet Graves: you have a doubt in your mind ?
Zen Arado: I think w have been conditioned into dualism of mind/body by Plato and Descartes
Zen Arado: they made a false distinction between the two
Hamlet Graves: in truth it is all consciousness
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: it is embedded in Western thinking
Zen Arado: like the idea of a soul
Hamlet Graves: but if one *wants* to play the duality game the causality starts with the subtle and ends with the gross
Hamlet Graves: *thn
Hamlet Graves: *then
milakel Resident: zen, what about karmic reborn in buddhism then? if body dies (along with mind), how is it passed on to another life?
Zen Arado: I don't have any belief in reincarnation Mila
milakel Resident: well, i was wondering how they rationalize this
Zen Arado: there might be some transfer of energy or something...but who knows?
milakel Resident: yea, possibly
Zen Arado: in Zen they say ...let's see what happens
Zen Arado: Tibetan Buddhists seem to have a strong belief in reincarnation
Hamlet Graves: in Advaita there is the concept of vasanas, latent impressions which are held over from past actions which re-manifest in another incarnation
milakel Resident: zen, experimental scientists do that too - let's see what happens :)
Zen Arado: yeh...Zen is experimental
milakel Resident: neat
Zen Arado: just look at your direct experience...not a set of beliefs
milakel Resident: that's what i like about dharma teaching - its diversity and non-dogmatism. you don't like reincarnation - fine, "go pick some other deity" :)
Zen Arado: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...ns/zen_1.shtml
Zen Arado: yeh I don'tlike dogmatic beliefs
Hamlet Graves: that sounds alright, but it doesn't explain why people are born with ceratin tendancies
milakel Resident: oh, bbc doesn't sound like an authoritative source on buddism :)
Zen Arado: the only faith you need is in the process to begin with
milakel Resident: hamlet, genes?
milakel Resident: body defines us in many ways
Hamlet Graves: but why ceratin genes ?
milakel Resident: either you're born a boy or a girl for example
milakel Resident: hamlet, hmm... i don't know :)
Zen Arado: I don't think that defines us as much as we think
Zen Arado: most of it is cultural
milakel Resident: zen, true
Zen Arado: sex orientation is hard wired though
milakel Resident: so not the body per se, but the culture around it
Zen Arado: I think
Zen Arado: we have certain abilities though
Zen Arado: agree with Hamlet there
Zen Arado: ( I like that little thumbnail of Zen Mila)
Zen Arado: even if from BBC :)
Zen Arado: I have to go
Zen Arado: ty for discussion :)
milakel Resident: oh well
milakel Resident: session is over :)
Hamlet Graves: thank you zen it has been a very interesting discussion :)
milakel Resident: nice talk. thank you guys.
Hamlet Graves: thanks you MIla :)
Zen Arado: thanks for coming
Zen Arado: byee
milakel Resident: be good :)