2011.08.08 19:00 - Simulations

The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia.

sinequanon Sahara: hello Sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Sinequanon
stevenaia Michinaga: hi SSL
stevenaia Michinaga: Sine
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Stevenaia, Hi Pema :)))
sinequanon Sahara: Hello Pema...Stevania
stevenaia Michinaga: Pema
Pema Pera: hi S,S&S !
SophiaSharon Larnia: so nice to see you all!
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
Pema Pera: same here, Sharon
Pema Pera: or S, S & SS
stevenaia Michinaga: but not in that order
sinequanon Sahara: haha or s cubed
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, ha
sinequanon Sahara: the cube roots of unity
SophiaSharon Larnia: well, S, S, and SS is much easier
sinequanon Sahara: i believe two of the roots are complex
Pema Pera: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: nice to have a laugh when tired
Pema Pera: hard day's work, Steve?
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, somehow find it easier then too :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I take it you've been here before Sine - I'm behind on reading the logs
sinequanon Sahara: yes i have been here before...
Pema Pera: actually, yesterday I put poor Sine on the spot, asking him for his world view :-)
sinequanon Sahara: yesterday and the day before...and then a long time back
Pema Pera: but he was a good sport
SophiaSharon Larnia: i see, I'll have to take a look
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
sinequanon Sahara: why dont we take you on today Pema
Pema Pera: hahaha, sure
sinequanon Sahara: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: ooh
sinequanon Sahara: tell us what you are doing thse days...
sinequanon Sahara: the pure science of it i mean
Pema Pera: I'm visiting a supercomputer research center in Kobe, Japan
Pema Pera: where we are developing new software, with new algorithsm
Pema Pera: to make use of the world's fastest computer that was just completed here
sinequanon Sahara: is there something specific you aim to achieve
Pema Pera: sure, to be able to perform simulations of the evolution of star clusters and galaxies
Pema Pera: they evolve over time scales of billions of years
Pema Pera: so no matter how large our telescopes, we can't wait to see what happens
sinequanon Sahara: very interesting..
Pema Pera: we have to use computers as time telescopes
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes. Would you then rewind it?
stevenaia Michinaga: seems much of what computers do is sumlate reality better
Pema Pera: sure, both towards the past and the future
sinequanon Sahara: i believe as yet we dont have any answer to the question how galaxy clusters are formes...or why

they exist..
Pema Pera: we have some ideas
Pema Pera: but the details are very messy
Pema Pera: collapsing gas clouds
Pema Pera: complex chemistry, radiation transfer, nuclear reactions
Pema Pera: in a way, computers allow us to peak over the edge of our lifetime
sinequanon Sahara: and would that suffice to explain not just one galaxy...but a galaxy cluster...say like the local cluster
Pema Pera: toward distant future and distant past
stevenaia Michinaga: is there the equivalent of the buttfly wings flapping that changes everything on a galactic scale?
Pema Pera: oh yes, the simulations are typically for generic galaxies
Pema Pera: as for chaotic aspects, Steve, yes
Pema Pera: just like in weather, etc
Pema Pera: so the simulations are not precisely tailored to one specific galaxy
sinequanon Sahara: the butterfly effect
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Pema Pera: more like statistical realizations
Pema Pera: hi Whispr
Pema Pera: here is a metaphor:
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Whispr :)
Pema Pera: if you could see a forest for only one day
sinequanon Sahara: hello whisper
Pema Pera: then you couldn't see how small trees grow into big ones
Pema Pera: but you could still count tree rings
Pema Pera: and make theories of how a forest changes over years and centuries
Pema Pera: and perform simulations
Pema Pera: cosmically speaking, our life is but a day . . .
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Whispr, this is a group called Play as Being, have you joined us before?
Whispr Xue: Yes, I have 8)
SophiaSharon Larnia: great, so you know about the recording ?
sinequanon Sahara: reminds me of the simulation argument that was very famous some time back...
sinequanon Sahara: are we living in a simulation...
sinequanon Sahara: opps we are :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
SophiaSharon Larnia: it looks pretty good doesnt it

--BELL--

Whispr Xue: I've always found ti to be a stimulating conversation ,,,Oh.. yes 8)
Whispr Xue: (( sorry... lag monster had a hold of me for a bit ))
SophiaSharon Larnia: I know what you mean Whispr
Pema Pera: well, Sine, perhaps it depends on who we think "we" are . . .
Whispr Xue: 8)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm still looking for signs that its a simulation though
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if/when we will approach simulating the mind as easilly as a galaxcy moving
Pema Pera: philosophers in the past have talked abotu life as a dream . . .
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Pema Pera: *about
Whispr Xue: Wasn't that what the Matrix series tried to profess?
Pema Pera: simulating the brain is one thing -- simulating the mind is a more complex question
Whispr Xue: That existence was merely a figment
Pema Pera: well, yes, that the world could be virtual
sinequanon Sahara: it was more than that...the matrix...it was more about shattering the fantacy then constructing it
Pema Pera: good point, about waking up!
Pema Pera: the brain can be simulated to some extent, and accuracy is increasing
SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes I think I see 'something' if there is a lot of synchronicity, or lucky accidents
Pema Pera: the brain is an object, like a star or galaxy
Pema Pera: but awareness (consciousness) is more like space, I think -- not a thing
Pema Pera: space allows objects to appear, but it not material itself, not made out of matter
SophiaSharon Larnia: ive thought of it more like an energy
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
Pema Pera: consciousness allows thought to appear, appearances in general, but it is not a thing or an appearance itself
Pema Pera: so not clear how consciousness or mind could be simulated
stevenaia Michinaga: if energy and matter is the same, space is.... something else
Whispr Xue: So how are we capable of telling illusion from reality if it is all merely what the consciousness chooses to

accept
Pema Pera: reality is contextual
Whispr Xue: who or what causes consciousness to be discering?
Whispr Xue: *discerning
stevenaia Michinaga: but like space... time works with the mix, but able to be run fast, slow, forward and backward in a

simulation, but not in reality
Pema Pera: yes
sinequanon Sahara: the stupid arrow of time
Pema Pera: btw, Whispr's profile is very apt for our discussion: The best thing about dreams is that fleeting moment

when you are between asleep and awake ... when you don't know the difference between reality and fantasy ... when

for just that one moment you feel with your entire soul that the dream is the reality, and it really happened.
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) I just read that myself
SophiaSharon Larnia: very
Whispr Xue: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, a special place between here and there
sinequanon Sahara: we have a concept that the soul escapes the body during sleep
Whispr Xue: It is that moment... that I think is far more real than any other
stevenaia Michinaga: I like that place myself
Pema Pera: yes, from which everything else emerges
sinequanon Sahara: it is advised that a sleeping person should be awaken very gently
sinequanon Sahara: a lot of dicoveries have happened while the person was asleep...like they wer dreampt...
Pema Pera: what we call reality is typically bound up within a framework
Whispr Xue: and far better to allow them to arise from the mist on their own
sinequanon Sahara: the discovery of the formula for benzene for example..
SophiaSharon Larnia: or waking up with a solution to a problem
Pema Pera: that waking up is momentarily opening doors, going beyond frameworks
stevenaia Michinaga: I often "sleep on it" when pondering a decision
Whispr Xue: so much happens when you allow your mind to 'work' without the constraint of 'what you know'
stevenaia Michinaga: because it does shine a special light on a problem
sinequanon Sahara: even while awake...most insights are like a sudden flash ..rather than a delibrate pondering upon
Pema Pera: yes
sinequanon Sahara: like out of nowhere...
SophiaSharon Larnia: i try to keep a pen around for that reason
sinequanon Sahara: i dont imagine how that can be simulated..
stevenaia Michinaga: an insightful flash from a pile of simulated nerons
sinequanon Sahara: there have beenrecently discoveries of some quantum mechanics related phenomena in biology...
Whispr Xue: like when you set aside a niggling issue... and when you aren't thinking about it the solution seems so very

simple

--BELL--

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Paradise :)
Pema Pera: the funny thing is, in all our years of schooling, we learn to use a mind that is tuned to specifics, far far more

than learning to use the mind that traverses boundaries, living in tidal zones
Pema Pera: hi Paradise!
Paradise Tennant: smiles and waves all round and listens :)
Whispr Xue: Hello Paradise 8)
Pema Pera: alas, work is calling, just now . . . (11:30 am here)
Pema Pera: nice talking with you all !
sinequanon Sahara: bye Pema..
SophiaSharon Larnia: so nice to see you Pema!!
sinequanon Sahara: take care
stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy your simulation
Whispr Xue: Bye..
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Bye :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Calvino
sinequanon Sahara: dont let a black hole gobble us all
Whispr Xue: Education is starting to finally teach learning... instead of memorizing
Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :)
sinequanon Sahara: hi Cal
Whispr Xue: Hello Cal
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone
Calvino Rabeni: hey, this seat is still warm :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Whispr Xue: *smile*
SophiaSharon Larnia: talking about reality as simulations, mind and dreams (extreme short version)
Paradise Tennant: smiles steve has ice cream :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: and blue hair :)
sinequanon Sahara: i was thinking who ever came up with the idea of the 90 seconds...made the most ground breaking

invention in public discourse since...socrates i think...
stevenaia Michinaga: I needed a snack
stevenaia Michinaga: real and simulated ice cream
Whispr Xue: it looks very refreshing 8)
Calvino Rabeni smiles at the ice cream icon with the beer gesture
Whispr Xue: (( and I just finished some too LOL ))
stevenaia Michinaga: the conversation helps too
sinequanon Sahara: it is real if the consequences are real...Thomas theorem i think..
Calvino Rabeni: Consequentialism?
sinequanon Sahara: yes i believe...
Whispr Xue: It makes itself known as real... when it appears on the scales LOL....
stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_theorem
Whispr Xue: If you can wear it off first.... it wasn't real
sinequanon Sahara: we are star dust anyway..ice cream doesnt influence us
SophiaSharon Larnia: it sure appears to influence me
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps it's real if it stays around long enough for 2 people to agree something is there
Whispr Xue: can anything really influence us, if we choose not to let it?
sinequanon Sahara: or if you need to buy two size large
Paradise Tennant: pistacchio gelato .. resonates :) with me :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
Whispr Xue: 8)
stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like a quantum event
Calvino Rabeni: Who would like to be free of the ability to be influenced?
sinequanon Sahara: yes it can whispr we arent really as free as we think we are
Calvino Rabeni: I think those quantum theories say "no dice" to that theory
Whispr Xue: hmmmm
Whispr Xue: I guess it comes back to the perception of influence then
sinequanon Sahara: we are influencing each other right now as we speak
stevenaia Michinaga: unless we choose not to be influenced
Paradise Tennant: smiles at san and waves :)
Santoshima Resident: hello
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Santoshima :)
sinequanon Sahara: ..we would still influence each other...if not a word was spoken
stevenaia Michinaga: hello San
Calvino Rabeni: I'm enjoying some quotes by Laurence J. Peter lately... what a wiseacre :) The easy ideas keep turning

around to bite one's rear.
Whispr Xue: Hello Santo
Santoshima Resident: hello all
Calvino Rabeni: Hi San
sinequanon Sahara: hello Santo...
Santoshima Resident: evening
Whispr Xue: smiles at Laurence...yes... they do
Calvino Rabeni: "You can always tell a real friend; when you've made a fool of yourself he doesn't feel you've done a

permanent job. "
Paradise Tennant: smiles at cal .. like that one :)
Calvino Rabeni: "The best intelligence test is what we do with our leisure. "
Paradise Tennant: friends are one of life's true riches ;)
Paradise Tennant: ahh :)
Calvino Rabeni: "Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be

undecided about them. "
Whispr Xue: smiling... I'll have to look up Laurence...
SophiaSharon Larnia:  this is a great conversation, but I'm having trouble staying awake :)
sinequanon Sahara: thats true calvin like the continuum hypothesis
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now all
stevenaia Michinaga: try ice cream
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Steve! :)
Santoshima Resident: bye sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: night
Paradise Tennant: sweet dream sophia :)
sinequanon Sahara: bye Sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: thx you too!
Whispr Xue: gnite Sophie 8)
Calvino Rabeni: True, what I like about ice cream is its continuity
stevenaia Michinaga: night sophia
Calvino Rabeni: ... while it lasts :)
sinequanon Sahara: the problem is if it is infinte or transfinite
stevenaia Michinaga: richness and complexity
sinequanon Sahara: :)
Whispr Xue: lol... and it doesn't take up room in your tummy...
stevenaia Michinaga: mutiple states of matter
Whispr Xue: just neatly fills in the wasted space between other foods

--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: smiles what did we do with our leisure today :)
Calvino Rabeni: I think that's also true of many higher states of consciousness .. they get along with what else is there

and don't insist on elbowing them aside.
Whispr Xue: yes.. there is an acceptance without competition
sinequanon Sahara: reminds me of a complicated book...the multiple states of being by rene guenon
stevenaia Michinaga: like true friendship
Calvino Rabeni: Let's see... PaB, nap, mtn bike ride, read a book, put medicine in cat, mused and fantasized, ... what a

day, no wonder I'm worn out :)
sinequanon Sahara: http://www.amazon.com/Multiple-State.../dp/0943914078
Calvino Rabeni: Will look it up, sine ..
sinequanon Sahara: and when you have read it ..do explain it to me please :)
Whispr Xue: or unconditional love...acceptance of who one is... not who one is perceived to be
Calvino Rabeni: wow, at least it is short
sinequanon Sahara: still took me a year to parse
Calvino Rabeni: "This book has a reputation for being the most difficult of Guenon's purely metaphysical works. Perhaps

this is because it is an explanation, or rather introduction, to the totality of Creation- manifest, unmanifest, higher, lower,

and probable."
sinequanon Sahara: yep that almost sums it all
Whispr Xue: wow...
stevenaia Michinaga: not a beach book
stevenaia Michinaga: ?
Calvino Rabeni wonders if there's a Cliff Notes version
Santoshima Resident: a harry potter version
sinequanon Sahara: theres is an easier book by him...the reign of quantity and the signs of the times...
Paradise Tennant: good concise review posted :)
stevenaia Michinaga: link?
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, one can dip into it here: http://books.google.com/books?id=YrVGU9xh58cC
sinequanon Sahara: heres the link to the second book
sinequanon Sahara: http://www.amazon.com/Reign-Quantity.../dp/0900588675
Paradise Tennant: http://www.amazon.com/Multiple-State...uenon/product-

reviews/0943914078/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
sinequanon Sahara: dont you just love google
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, love and fear :)
sinequanon Sahara: let them hate as long as they fear
sinequanon Sahara: guenon was a mathematician...
Calvino Rabeni: According to Peter ... "Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices. "
sinequanon Sahara: he later turned to metaphysics...
Calvino Rabeni: That's a potent mix
sinequanon Sahara: yes
Whispr Xue: I'm sorry... I must excuse myself... a pleasurable stimulating conversation as always 8)
sinequanon Sahara: like russel...
sinequanon Sahara: bye whispr
Whispr Xue: thank you 8)
Santoshima Resident: bye whisper. good to meet you
stevenaia Michinaga: bye whispr
Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now Whispr
Whispr Xue: and good evening/morning/afternoon 8)
sinequanon Sahara: russel however ...well his whole blew up on his face..maathematical work that is...
sinequanon Sahara: it would haunt him
Calvino Rabeni: Yes but he got an A for Effort
sinequanon Sahara: its important to consider what went wrong...
sinequanon Sahara: i mean for the purpose of the discussion we were having...
Calvino Rabeni: I was just thinking the same
sinequanon Sahara: of simulating realities...
sinequanon Sahara: it started with euclid i think...
Calvino Rabeni: The geometrization of logic?
sinequanon Sahara: that paralle lines never meet...
sinequanon Sahara: no logic came later...
Calvino Rabeni: Axiomatization
sinequanon Sahara: the theorem...of the parallel lines stood for 2000 years
sinequanon Sahara: yes exactly...
Calvino Rabeni: allows logic to be applied to geometry
Paradise Tennant: nite nite whispr
Calvino Rabeni: giving the idea that one can model physical reality

--BELL--

sinequanon Sahara: so we had reimann walking in with his non euclidean geometries....
sinequanon Sahara: and everyone was ...well dumbfounded...
Calvino Rabeni: I guess algebra came after that, making the mix even more potent?
sinequanon Sahara: this was mathematics...things are not suppose to go wrong in it
Calvino Rabeni: (after Euclid i mean)
Paradise Tennant: smiles suspect there are many layers of dumb founding to come :)
Calvino Rabeni: heh
sinequanon Sahara: yes but after this episode ...hilbert announced that this will never happen to mathematics again...
Calvino Rabeni: I like the connotations of that word and how you split it
stevenaia Michinaga: night all
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Stevie
sinequanon Sahara: night stevania...
Calvino Rabeni: Fly well
Paradise Tennant: nite nite stev )
Santoshima Resident: night stevenaia, and I must go too
Santoshima Resident: so long, thank you all
sinequanon Sahara: so we started axiomatizing...as you said calvin
Calvino Rabeni: Good night San
Calvino Rabeni: sayonara
sinequanon Sahara: night San..
sinequanon Sahara: russel came up with his class of all classes...
sinequanon Sahara: this was set theory...
sinequanon Sahara: and then...walks in mt godel...
sinequanon Sahara: mr sorry
Paradise Tennant: smiles hello observerm ..nice to see you .. will you sit with us :)
sinequanon Sahara: with his incompleteness theorem...
sinequanon Sahara: there are some axioms ...that will always remain undecided....
sinequanon Sahara: we can never know if they are true or they are not...
sinequanon Sahara: on the richter scale this discovery was a 10
sinequanon Sahara: it shook the very foundation of mathematics...putting an end to hilberts dream...
sinequanon Sahara: then they thought ok ...but these axioms ...or such like which will remain undecided will probably be

trivial axioms...
sinequanon Sahara: nothing important...so we probably need not worry...
Calvino Rabeni leans forward nervously
sinequanon Sahara: and then came ...well our ice cream...it turned out we can never know if ice cream is infinite
sinequanon Sahara: the continuum hypothesis...
sinequanon Sahara: i will have to give a brief introduction ...if people are interested?
Calvino Rabeni: hmm, yes what is the "continuum hypothesis"?
sinequanon Sahara: it deals with infinities...
sinequanon Sahara: intially we wouldnt deal with them...thinking of them as well...divine...
sinequanon Sahara: since God is infinite isnt he
sinequanon Sahara: cantor was the first one who to start this..dealing with infinites...
sinequanon Sahara: and really he ensnared them all...
sinequanon Sahara: he hit upon an interesting idea...
sinequanon Sahara: that infinities arent equalll
sinequanon Sahara: lke we can have a one to one correspondence with natural numbers and even numbers
sinequanon Sahara: so they are both infinite...one even number for one natural...ad infinitum...
sinequanon Sahara: the same holds true for other numbers....
sinequanon Sahara: except the real numbers...
sinequanon Sahara: he proved...with what was truely a stroke og genius..because even a kid can follow his

argument...that you cannot have one to one correspondence between the reals and the others...
sinequanon Sahara: its called cantors diagonal argument...

--BELL--

sinequanon Sahara: let me find a link...very very interesting
sinequanon Sahara: http://www.coopertoons.com/education...largument.html
sinequanon Sahara: i find this explanation very easy and interesting...
sinequanon Sahara: he called the reals...uncountable...or tranfinite...
sinequanon Sahara: the others he called countable..or infinite...
sinequanon Sahara: the reals were said to have a cardinality aleph 1
sinequanon Sahara: the others aleph nought
sinequanon Sahara: now this is the continuum hypothesis:
sinequanon Sahara: is there any other set...say like the set of irrationals which has someother cardinality....
sinequanon Sahara: alas it was proved...that no one can prove that....
sinequanon Sahara: or you can take it either way...it would still fit in..
sinequanon Sahara: so heres your ice cream for you...have as much as you like :)
sinequanon Sahara: the link i presented also associates cantors ideas with godels incompleteness...
sinequanon Sahara: goedel almost lost it in the end...
sinequanon Sahara: he became paranoid...
sinequanon Sahara: he wouldnt let anyone see him..
sinequanon Sahara: the guy who proved the undecidability of the continuum hypothesis was his student...
Calvino Rabeni: not primarily due to his mathematics, I think
sinequanon Sahara: ofcourse we can never know that for sure...
sinequanon Sahara: anyway so this discovery was "big"
sinequanon Sahara: and no was would take it up on themselves to endorse it...
sinequanon Sahara: so they asked him to go to the master goedel himself...
sinequanon Sahara: he called him..
sinequanon Sahara: he finally allowed to meet..
Paradise Tennant: smiles very good explanation
sinequanon Sahara: the proof was slipped in through the door...literally
sinequanon Sahara: two days later goedel invited him for dinner...
sinequanon Sahara: the master gave his endoresement...
sinequanon Sahara: the master himself.....
sinequanon Sahara: well
sinequanon Sahara: this is sad
sinequanon Sahara: later...
sinequanon Sahara: he commited suicide
Calvino Rabeni: He was a type of martyr
sinequanon Sahara: he truely was...
Paradise Tennant: well on that somber note ..I am going to say thank you and good nite :) love numbers enjoyed this :)

there is such a clear eloquence to them some times :)
sinequanon Sahara: he has bee one of the most influential person is mathematics and logic
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Paradise
sinequanon Sahara: bye paradise...
sinequanon Sahara: he and einstein were good friends...
Paradise Tennant: namaste cal sine observerm ;)
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: One thing puzzles me about the language though - Why is this called the "continuum hypothesis" ... a

definition like "There is no set whose cardinality is strictly between that of the integers and that of the real numbers."

seems to me to suggest a discontinuum of cardinalities of sets.
sinequanon Sahara: but since it is undecided...you can have it either way...
sinequanon Sahara: so we can never know if there is such a set or there isnt...
Calvino Rabeni: And another question is, can we make anything of this metaphorically, outside the domain of formal

properties of mathematical constructs?
sinequanon Sahara: or we can take it wither way...it would still work...
sinequanon Sahara: its means essentially this...
sinequanon Sahara: A is true....
sinequanon Sahara: A is not true...

--BELL--

sinequanon Sahara: both statements are correct....
sinequanon Sahara: now what does that means for our logic...our metaphysics...to how much we can know...
sinequanon Sahara: how much we cannot...
sinequanon Sahara: i am not qualified to make metaphysical conclusions Calvin...
sinequanon Sahara: this is something very big...
sinequanon Sahara: even great scientists like penrose are accused of inferring the wrong conclusions from all this...
Calvino Rabeni: That's interesting ... I can sympathize, but it makes me wonder who IS qualified to make metaphysical

conclusions
sinequanon Sahara: Roger Penrose i mean...
sinequanon Sahara: i have read a few books on this...around goedels theorems and its implications....
Calvino Rabeni: I've not gone fishing in those waters
Calvino Rabeni: what did you find when you pulled in your nets?
sinequanon Sahara: my understanding is that it sorts of puts a limit to logic...
sinequanon Sahara: and therefore philosophy too...
Calvino Rabeni: I can understand that mathematicians might feel chastised
sinequanon Sahara: it also puts a limit to how much of the human mind can be simulated...
Calvino Rabeni: and that philosophers might question their commitment to logic and mathematization
Calvino Rabeni: Simulated through formal structures?
sinequanon Sahara: yes
sinequanon Sahara: we also have something like this in the pysical realm dont we...heisenbergs uncertainty principle
sinequanon Sahara: you can never precisely know both the position and the velocity of a particle...
Calvino Rabeni: I'd question if that is logical or physical
sinequanon Sahara: its physical...
Calvino Rabeni: One could say it's just a measurment problem of interaction
sinequanon Sahara: we just cant...
sinequanon Sahara: yet the uncertainty is very precise...the planck constant
sinequanon Sahara: not just a measurement problem...
sinequanon Sahara: or theyd have said that the uncertainty can be reduced by such and such...
sinequanon Sahara: it cannot be...
sinequanon Sahara: it will always be there...
sinequanon Sahara: thanks Lucinda...for letting me share in your oneness :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening, Cinda
Lucinda Lavender: :))
sinequanon Sahara: hello :)
Lucinda Lavender: HI :0
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Cal too and observem

--BELL--

Lucinda Lavender: what is new?
sinequanon Sahara: we have just arrived at the conclusion that sl is not possible...
sinequanon Sahara: we are pulling the plug on it in a few seconds...
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Lucinda Lavender: ah...ok!
Calvino Rabeni: If we just had a bit more computational power we might also simulate the many-worlds hypothesis here

in Second Life
Lucinda Lavender: will take a deep breath then...
sinequanon Sahara: there are places in advanced mathematics where mathematicians scare to tread...
Calvino Rabeni: Including all the variations of what Cinda *might* have said or might say later
Lucinda Lavender: :))
sinequanon Sahara: except that what ever she says..the exact opposite of it will also hold true...
Lucinda Lavender: I can believe that for sure!
Calvino Rabeni: If there's such a thing as "exact opposite"
Calvino Rabeni: but the continuum hypothesis tells us no dice
sinequanon Sahara: it tells the opposite Calvin...that soemtimes there is a dice...and that it doesnt even matter...you

could have either heads or tails without spoiling anything...thats the paradox
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was anticipating you'd catch that :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'd run that possibility
Calvino Rabeni: Our survival results from having a many-worlds simulator node at the top of the neck, hooked into the

network
Calvino Rabeni: Imperfect as it is
sinequanon Sahara: what has been proved is that you can never decide if the continuum hypothesis is true or not
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for your earlier explication, sine
Lucinda Lavender: if there is ahooray for those who can spell continuum...
Calvino Rabeni: I find it easier than "parallel"
Lucinda Lavender: oops
Calvino Rabeni: but I do like the self-demonstrating feature fo that word
sinequanon Sahara: you could spell ice cream Lucinda...we have also proved that they are one and the same things :)
Lucinda Lavender: it does have a pair of l's at least
Calvino Rabeni: yep
Calvino Rabeni: pair of l's
Lucinda Lavender: wow!!
Lucinda Lavender: you have been working hard it seems...
Calvino Rabeni: Are we to presume that is a lucky coincidence, or might there be some design process resulting in that

happy synergy of word form and meaning ..
sinequanon Sahara: yes we started with an exotic pistachio...
Lucinda Lavender: and from the exo nut...what then?
sinequanon Sahara: all the ladies were virtuous and all the men were valiant :)
sinequanon Sahara: they didnt leave any of it for us :(
Calvino Rabeni: And all the children were above average
Lucinda Lavender: ah...
sinequanon Sahara: omg two hours....
Lucinda Lavender: :)
sinequanon Sahara: we have been eating ice cream for two hours..
Lucinda Lavender: nice!!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, did we pass the "intelligence test" suggested by Peters?
Lucinda Lavender: Luci is betting so...
sinequanon Sahara: atleast we are getting fatter
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, there's an intelligent conjecture

--BELL--

sinequanon Sahara: i must beg leave...
sinequanon Sahara: Thanks Calvin...
sinequanon Sahara: Lucinda
Lucinda Lavender: happy travels then Sine
sinequanon Sahara: Observerm...
Lucinda Lavender: and observem
Calvino Rabeni: Same, Sine
observerm Resident waves
Calvino Rabeni: Say hi to your co-
Lucinda Lavender: thanks for all...
Lucinda Lavender: I am sitting in the air
Lucinda Lavender: have not done that before...must be the lightness of conversation
Lucinda Lavender: now I have a new sitting position too
Lucinda Lavender: interesting
Lucinda Lavender: sitting with the crossed legs it new...for me
Calvino Rabeni: by the way did you see those military planes lately?
Lucinda Lavender: have been seeing occasionally...but not seeking them out
Lucinda Lavender: what did you think?
Calvino Rabeni: some people like the sound
Lucinda Lavender: they are loud...
Lucinda Lavender: I tell the children to cover their ears
Lucinda Lavender: if they want
Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever heard a sonic boom?
Lucinda Lavender: I think so long ago
Lucinda Lavender: have you?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it was a long time ago too
Calvino Rabeni: Sort of back in the wild west days of avionics
Lucinda Lavender: yeah
Calvino Rabeni: yeee haw :)
Calvino Rabeni: Now I'd guess it's reserved for jackrabbit and sagebrush
Lucinda Lavender: ah...ok
Lucinda Lavender: sleeping outside was pretty nice
Calvino Rabeni: Envious :)
Lucinda Lavender: the sound of cars took a long time to die away
Calvino Rabeni: the air is so great during summer nights
Lucinda Lavender: woke up with stuffy nose sort of
Lucinda Lavender: but it was nice to know it can be comfortable
Lucinda Lavender: and that the sky was just above
Calvino Rabeni: pollens or something?
Lucinda Lavender: suppose
Lucinda Lavender: not sleeping there tonight tho
Lucinda Lavender: a few bites...
Lucinda Lavender: need a longer sleep tonight
Lucinda Lavender: what is for dinner?
Calvino Rabeni: mosquitos kept you awake, then the dawn came early ..
Calvino Rabeni: oh, see the link in your IM panel :)
Lucinda Lavender: nothing kept me awake...slept wonderfully...husband had the bites
Lucinda Lavender: they don't like me as well
Calvino Rabeni: maybe he's tasty and you aren't so much
Lucinda Lavender: yes!
Calvino Rabeni: is it personal chemistry or a difference in diet?
Lucinda Lavender: what link is that?

--BELL--

Lucinda Lavender: not sure...always been that way tho
Calvino Rabeni: the link shows "what's for dinner"
Calvino Rabeni: some varieties of local produce
Lucinda Lavender: nice
Lucinda Lavender: sounds healthy
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but it causes cookie-eating between meals
Lucinda Lavender: I bet that would be true for me too
Lucinda Lavender: snack desires
Lucinda Lavender: veggies are light fare
Calvino Rabeni: Do you have any specialty brewing projects planned this year?
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps plums again?
Lucinda Lavender: well there is a rumpot going...rum with many fruits
Lucinda Lavender: and the dandilion, and the plum from last year...hoping ready by christmas
Lucinda Lavender: the hibiscus
Lucinda Lavender: besides the beers
Calvino Rabeni: Ever make sauerkraut?
Calvino Rabeni: It's a fermentation project
Lucinda Lavender: there are some strange looking cukes in the garage
Lucinda Lavender: they have a gray tinge to one side
Lucinda Lavender: and yes have the saurerkraut in the fridge
Calvino Rabeni: how is it .. salty?
Lucinda Lavender: sort of yes
Lucinda Lavender: it is good.
Lucinda Lavender: like it with sausages
Lucinda Lavender: brb
Lucinda Lavender: bac
Lucinda Lavender: k
Calvino Rabeni: wb
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: wish I had a brownie
Lucinda Lavender: want a dessert I guess
Lucinda Lavender: I do have licorice
Lucinda Lavender: do you like licorice
Lucinda Lavender: ?

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: I like it every other year
Lucinda Lavender: :))
Calvino Rabeni: GTG, good talking to you ... dinner calls
Lucinda Lavender: Well should go soon...wish I could put up the music I am listening too
Lucinda Lavender: another time ...will see ...
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, give it a try some time yes
Calvino Rabeni: Take care, good night
Lucinda Lavender: bye for now