Return to Pavilion:

druth Vlodovic: why the changes in venue?
Zen Arado: there is a restart every Wed
Zen Arado: most Weds anyway
druth Vlodovic: ah
druth Vlodovic: maybe we should have stayed there, we lost half the group
druth Vlodovic: hello again kyoo
Zen Arado: Hi again ;)
kyoo Engineer: hi
Zen Arado: yeh but others come here then
Zen Arado: but not judging leads to greater inaccuracies Druth?
druth Vlodovic: my point was supposed to be that judgment calls are useful tools that can be misused
druth Vlodovic: well, "not judging" what does that mean?
Santoshima Resident: can they be useful?
Zen Arado: ah I see
Zen Arado: doing things blindly
druth Vlodovic: even if you think you are seeing something "just as itself" you are using your own senses and knowledge to "know" it
Zen Arado: hmm yes
Zen Arado: about judging peple...But surely that is also a survival skill? We have to determine whether someone is compatible with us, has similar enough interests and values to us In order to decide whether we can spend time with them, if it is wise to make a friendship with them, or whether they are persons who should be avoided at all costs.
druth Vlodovic: hi sneaky san :)
Santoshima Resident: sneaky?
Zen Arado: judging Druth ?
druth Vlodovic: slipping in outside my camera angle :)
Santoshima Resident: i can't walk in sl ... slow modem
Santoshima Resident: need to tp or move from cushion to cushion
Santoshima Resident: please continue
Zen Arado: sorry I should have sent TP
Santoshima Resident: np
Zen Arado: didn't realize
druth Vlodovic: I guess the balance is between chosen morals and perceived necessities of survival
Zen Arado: is it wrong to decide who should be our friends?
Zen Arado: or not?
Zen Arado: who we should make deals with?
Zen Arado: would be naive not to
druth Vlodovic: the concepts of "honour" and reputation" are supposed to reward those who follow societal mores, and are trustworthy
Zen Arado: surely
Zen Arado: yes
druth Vlodovic: so you could say that it is immoral not to judge harshly those who have spotted pasts
Santoshima Resident: { hold on, I need to sort out that equation }
Zen Arado: it is following convention I guess
Santoshima Resident: what's a "spotted past"?
Zen Arado: a bad reputation?
druth Vlodovic: hi eliza
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
druth Vlodovic: well, take gossip as a tangled example
Eliza Madrigal: Hi folks :)
Santoshima Resident: a friendly way of saying that
Santoshima Resident: hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you all
druth Vlodovic: if someone tells you unfortunate things about others then generally they will do the same about you to others
Santoshima Resident: likewise
Eliza Madrigal: :) ty
Zen Arado: in a way it is better to make our own judgement in these situations I think
Zen Arado: than follow the herd
druth Vlodovic: so engaging them would be rewarding behavior that can be damaging, while exposing yourself to harm
druth Vlodovic: but to fail to do so is to separate you from others
Eliza Madrigal: gossip seems particularly hard, finding the lines
Eliza Madrigal: so agree re personal sensibilities
Eliza Madrigal: (ty for the note Zen)
Zen Arado: just something I wrote and we are discussing Eliza
Zen Arado: had to go to Kira and back
Eliza Madrigal: oh, restart day :)
Santoshima Resident: we drank beer there
Santoshima Resident: and had a whiskey
Eliza Madrigal: early beer for some
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Santoshima Resident: we are of bad reputation
Santoshima Resident: how to deal with us
Eliza Madrigal: yeah... spoils all my notions...
Santoshima Resident: :)

Zen Arado: “She trusts people who are unworthy. She also trusts people who aren’t trustworthy. This is true trust.” Tao Te Ching, chapter 49
Zen Arado: is that wise?
Eliza Madrigal: wow
druth Vlodovic: it's following rules rather than sense to my mind
Zen Arado: lines are out of sequence but ... (I put them back to correct sequence afterwards)
Zen Arado: is it a good principle though?
druth Vlodovic: it gives no benefit to those who have already disadvantaged themselves by being trustworthy
Zen Arado: yes Druth
Santoshima Resident: excellent
Zen Arado: but shouldn't we be forgiving?
Zen Arado: not expecting people to follow a pattern?
Eliza Madrigal: for me, if I make a rule immediately arises an exception
Zen Arado: not show favoritism ?
Eliza Madrigal: can be maddening at times :)
Zen Arado: giving people another chance?
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: that's life :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: being open to people not staying the same, is more flexible
Eliza Madrigal: there are general flags/guideposts though
Zen Arado: my teacher used to say 'don't know people'
Eliza Madrigal: my car was broken into this morning...
Santoshima Resident: oh, sorry
Eliza Madrigal: was odd that they left a flashlight that might have helped with future crimes
Zen Arado: oh
Zen Arado: maybe they are daylight robbers
Eliza Madrigal: nothing serious... but it does bring up many questions re judgment and circumstance/conditioning/forgiveness
Santoshima Resident: hello gad
kyoo Engineer: sorry, i rest now
Eliza Madrigal: Hi gad :)
gadalmighty Resident: ין טשךך נרנ
Eliza Madrigal: Night kyoo , late in japan :)
gadalmighty Resident: hiu yall brb
Santoshima Resident: bye kyoo
Zen Arado: Hi Gad
Zen Arado: bye Kyoo
druth Vlodovic: 'night kyoo
kyoo Engineer: i'm good at English, so i don't understand your conversation
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I'm sorry
kyoo Engineer: but i am interested in your discuttion
Zen Arado: sorry kyoo
Zen Arado: good :)
kyoo Engineer: i will improve my English
Zen Arado: sorry I can't speak Japanese
Eliza Madrigal: we can move more slowly
druth Vlodovic: oh don't worry, we don't often understand it ourselves
Eliza Madrigal: and be considerate
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for saying
kyoo Engineer: see you again
Zen Arado: byee
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now Kyoo
Eliza Madrigal: :) druth
kyoo Engineer: see you

Judging children:

Zen Arado: most major religious traditions encourage us to stay open to people despite their seeming faults. “Judge not lest ye be judged.” Many judgements seem to include comparisons of others with ourselves. We rank people as cleverer or less intelligent than ourselves and also judge them on various other qualities. This seems to be about boosting our own ego, and probably only causes us suffering. Any abilities and talents we have were given to us, we didn’t do anything to deserve them, so why worry If others are better endowed with them than us? Our societies seem to have a preoccupation with judgements starting with education of young children. We are assessed, graded and judged right from the start of our schooling. We assign honours and prizes to those who are the most successful, forgetting about how the rest feel for failing.
Zen Arado: agree?
Eliza Madrigal: generally yes... especially re traditional schooling patterns
Zen Arado: a judgemental lot we aere :)
druth Vlodovic: once again a matter of degree
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: what if we didn't judge children?
Zen Arado: just helped them?
Eliza Madrigal: but I think the sectioning off isn't healthy for either the so-called gifted nor the ones who struggle to process
Zen Arado: yeh
Eliza Madrigal: have worked with struggling kids and also gifted before
Zen Arado: kind of isolating
Eliza Madrigal: we all need each other :)
Zen Arado: I agree
Zen Arado: strong help the weak
Eliza Madrigal: vice versa too
Eliza Madrigal: maybe more
Zen Arado: yes

Eliza Madrigal: (sorry those are my judgments!)
Zen Arado: engenders humility instead of arrogance surely
druth Vlodovic: well, each person is an individual, with different needs
Santoshima Resident: apology not necessary ~
druth Vlodovic: to treat everyone the same isn't really a proper path to raising kids
Zen Arado: but not the same
Zen Arado: still see what hey are
Santoshima Resident: please excuse me, i need to go ~
Santoshima Resident: bye
Santoshima Resident: and thanks
druth Vlodovic: because it ignores the ways in which people have extra talent in one area and require more help in others
Zen Arado: perhaps leave out comparisons?
Eliza Madrigal: bye San :)
druth Vlodovic: cya san
Zen Arado: bye san :)
Eliza Madrigal: agree too... but even in a shared environment one doesn't have to have a same approach
Zen Arado: 'each according to their need'
Eliza Madrigal: my son is really benefitted from helping the younger in tae kwon do... give his learning a feeling of purpose
gadalmighty Resident: im juust kinda multytasking here..
Zen Arado: teaching is also good learning experience
gadalmighty Resident: im if u urgently need me :)
Zen Arado: np gad
Eliza Madrigal: :) gad
gadalmighty Resident: thanx
Zen Arado: It could be argued that we need judgement in order to be able to make wise decisions. Perhaps the judgement process is an automatic one that depends, like choices, on all the interconnected interdependent factors in any situation, on our own experiences, abilities and talents. We feel we can judge in an open minded way but is that true? We all have inbuilt prejudices that we are not even aware of, that have been instilled in us by our culture and upbringing.
Zen Arado: am I writing too much?
druth Vlodovic: not to my mind
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so... especially with log readers, can take the time
Eliza Madrigal: but if for instance, kyoo was still here..
Zen Arado: so ina a way our judgements are automatic
Eliza Madrigal: it might be nice to slow down a bit
Zen Arado: is what I am trying to say
Zen Arado: yes
druth Vlodovic: well, our reactions can be trained when we have time to consider things deeply, then used on the moment when required
Zen Arado: it's nice to write to clarify my thoughts I find
Eliza Madrigal: good point
Eliza Madrigal: Aphrodite pointed this out too.. it is the heedless judgments that get us... the ones we don't see coming
Eliza Madrigal: 'snap'
Zen Arado: :)
druth Vlodovic: a nice thing about text is I can go at whatever pace I like :)
Zen Arado: but our judgements are preprogrammed
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: we can reprogram them ourselves
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so... and if so, who is programming?
Eliza Madrigal: snap, lol
Zen Arado: all our previous experiences
Zen Arado: more than we think maybe
druth Vlodovic: society, parents religion, peers
Zen Arado: yep
Eliza Madrigal: is the past the only place to draw from?
druth Vlodovic: but we can deconstruct ourselves and put us back together
Zen Arado: someone with red hair did something nasty to us
Zen Arado: gives us a bias against red haired people
Zen Arado: stupid but...
druth Vlodovic: though our decision on whether or no to do this, and in what shape to reassemble is based on the "me" which has been programmed :)
Zen Arado: can we really Druth?
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Zen Arado: maybe a little
Zen Arado: but we have forgotten the experiences
Zen Arado: and it is all so deep
druth Vlodovic: for instance, I dislike suffering, and nihilism, both of these are pretty standard prejudices of my culture
Zen Arado: yeh
Eliza Madrigal: prejudices of suffering?
Zen Arado: we wouldn't even want to jettison our cultural prejudices
Zen Arado: we might not fit in
druth Vlodovic: would I wish to learn to enjoy suffering of others?
druth Vlodovic: of course not!
druth Vlodovic: but
druth Vlodovic: other people have
druth Vlodovic: why the difference?
Zen Arado: if you were a sadist
Zen Arado: you couldn't help it
Zen Arado: ?
druth Vlodovic: I might fit in better if I learned better how to learn to enjoy it, in many circumstances
Eliza Madrigal: ah, if that story fed your central identity...
Eliza Madrigal: or 'identity central'
Zen Arado: what if we lacked compassion
Zen Arado: like a psychopath
Zen Arado: should they be judged and condemned for that?
Zen Arado: should be removed from society if they harm people
Zen Arado: of course
druth Vlodovic: of course, but not for revenge

Eliza Madrigal: interesting word, psycho path
Zen Arado: I agree, but our legal is pretty retributive
druth Vlodovic: revenge and punishment are silly to my mind
Eliza Madrigal: nods
Zen Arado: I've noticed these discussions starting to get into punishment
druth Vlodovic: the only really legitimate use of punishment is to accomplish something else
Zen Arado: we should make that a theme
druth Vlodovic: why judge someone if you can't punish them? :)
Zen Arado: well there are other reasons
druth Vlodovic: it would take all the fun out of it
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: this is something what I said to my son this morning...about the stolen change
Eliza Madrigal: *like what
Zen Arado: what Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: no desire to make a fuss... actually wish them clarity and help....
Zen Arado: probably drug addicts?
Zen Arado: desperate for cash
Eliza Madrigal: likely just kids
Eliza Madrigal: they were so neat about it :)
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: set aside all the papers very gently
Eliza Madrigal: left many cds.... even one about the TAO
Eliza Madrigal: wish they'd take that :)
druth Vlodovic: ah, considerate thieves
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: artful dodgers
druth Vlodovic: maybe they have the TAO but lack change
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: oh goodnesss....
Eliza Madrigal: hahah....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'd better go.. daughter texting to be picked up early instead of watching films in school
Eliza Madrigal: stomach hurts
druth Vlodovic: ask her which films, then settle in beside her to watch them yourself :)
Zen Arado: oh
druth Vlodovic: ah, take care of yourself eliza
Zen Arado: kk Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :) prob pirates of te caribean for the 11 time.. seems to happen toward the end of the school year
Zen Arado: byee
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now, thanks
druth Vlodovic: "role models"
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: thanks for coming :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Bill Nighy is a pretty good one of those (he's in those films)
Eliza Madrigal: anyway, bye
Zen Arado: you know I find words like "judgement" for the concept of judgement hard to understand the more I think of it
Zen Arado: it's like we think we know what these words and concepts mean until we start to analyse them
Zen Arado: then it all becomes vague
druth Vlodovic: well, judgem,ent really implies a moral basis
Zen Arado: they can only be a pretty rough guide
druth Vlodovic: words and thoughts given form
Zen Arado: if you apply it to people, but you can judge them for other things too
Zen Arado: you can judge their abilities
druth Vlodovic: if you think too much you form your thoughts from words and get confused
Zen Arado: you know I find that with philosophy
Zen Arado: there are so many inbuilt assumptions in concepts and words
druth Vlodovic: they treat words like objects, as though they are not arbitrary
Zen Arado: words aren't like mathematics
Zen Arado: yes
druth Vlodovic: there is the thought, the implication, and the history
Zen Arado: yes
druth Vlodovic: and the application
Zen Arado: they can never be more than pointers to something
druth Vlodovic: take any of these away and you get confusion
Zen Arado: but we have to use them because they are useful
druth Vlodovic: tools
Zen Arado: even if not precise
druth Vlodovic: we then mistake tools for reality
Zen Arado: they only have meaning in relation to other words
Zen Arado: yes
druth Vlodovic: old magic "give a thing a name and you can control it"
Zen Arado: ha yes
Zen Arado: we are entranced by words
Zen Arado: just use them but realise they are tools and not reality
druth Vlodovic: when I say "immoral" I really mean "I think it is a wrong thing for people to do and I have an emotional reaction to it"

Zen Arado: oh yes I agree
Zen Arado: the word judgement can bridge over into discrimination and discernment
Zen Arado: judgement seems more about judging people maybe?
Zen Arado: And then moral judgements come up frequently
druth Vlodovic: the snowball effect :)
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: Part of the judgement process is carried out by splitting reality into discrete units and categorising them. If we discover that we don’t need to make these boundaries and distinctions, except when they are useful, then surely much of the endless judging falls away.
Zen Arado: last text
druth Vlodovic: as soon as I get up a nice head of steam the &^%&^$#$ bell goes off!
druth Vlodovic: and i have to think again
Zen Arado: :-)

Negativity of judging:

druth Vlodovic: so you judge judgement to be negative?
Zen Arado: Well, in practice I think judgements about people tend to be negative?
Zen Arado: As I said earlier about boosting our own egos by putting someone else down
druth Vlodovic: we are wired to pay more attention to the negative
Zen Arado: yeah so it seems
Zen Arado: I would love to be able to say I have never done that
druth Vlodovic: and yes, putting somone down gives us one person we are "superior" to
Zen Arado: it can be very subtle
Zen Arado: just complaining about someone is judging them and making us seem right
druth Vlodovic: sometimes
druth Vlodovic: be wary of universals
gadalmighty Resident: hmm sorry bbl
Zen Arado: bye Gad
druth Vlodovic: gadflew
Zen Arado: perhaps complaining is always wrong or at least a waste of time though
druth Vlodovic: no
druth Vlodovic: sometimes it can be a warning
Zen Arado: I mean in the sense of just moaning and not doing something
druth Vlodovic: or a way of controlling your mind and emotions
Zen Arado: I find myself doing it
druth Vlodovic: "blowing off steam"
Zen Arado: it doesn't make me feel better
druth Vlodovic: as long as you remember to stop and think clearly once the steam is gone :)
Zen Arado: it is dwelling in something that seems wrong instead of accepting it for doing something about it
druth Vlodovic: well, in regards to people
druth Vlodovic: people are very complex
druth Vlodovic: so a good exercise is to think of something good about them
Zen Arado: yes
druth Vlodovic: and end a complaining session with that
Zen Arado: it's funny but usually when I do start thinking about peoples faults something in me seems to say yes but they are good in other ways
druth Vlodovic: ah, you've trained your inner voice :)
Zen Arado: they are just being who they are anyway
druth Vlodovic: lol, that attitude has gotten me called "arrogant"
Zen Arado: and I can't see the submerged iceberg of experiences that made them that way
Zen Arado: so I can I judge if I am only seeing the surface of them?
druth Vlodovic: of course you can
druth Vlodovic: who they are now is who they are now
druth Vlodovic: they are not animals to be slaves to their past
druth Vlodovic: and treating them as such is condescending
druth Vlodovic: and fun :)
Zen Arado: Well I think we are slaves not just to our past but to our genetics and abilities, how we were brought up, our culture
Zen Arado: that is what made us what we are now
druth Vlodovic: we also have responsibility
druth Vlodovic: to become what we want to be
druth Vlodovic: "fairness" is not always a useful concept
Zen Arado: oh yes because that is part of our our conioning to feel responsible
Zen Arado: conditioning
druth Vlodovic: of course :)
druth Vlodovic: but if you lack responsibility you lack control as well
druth Vlodovic: are you willing to release both?
Zen Arado: I'm not so sure about control either
Zen Arado: but I am working with this at the moment
Zen Arado: it is quite counter intuitive
druth Vlodovic: we love to have other control us
Zen Arado: we all like to think we are directing our destinies
druth Vlodovic: release us from responsibility
Zen Arado: but I'm not so sure
Zen Arado: now, because we have been conditioned to be responsible or not
druth Vlodovic: hence the prevalence of "subs" in SL
Zen Arado: we will have the desire to act morally
Zen Arado: if we don't have that only fear of the law will make us responsible
Zen Arado: yes, I tried being a sub one time, but I wasn't submissive enough :-)
druth Vlodovic: it's hard to trust that much

Zen Arado: “She trusts people who are unworthy. She also trusts people who aren’t trustworthy. This is true trust.”
Zen Arado: I'm going now
Zen Arado: I have to stitch 3 logs together
druth Vlodovic: I still say that is a phrase coined by someone with a vested interest in increasing the amount of strife in society :)
Zen Arado: thanks for coming Druth
druth Vlodovic: have fun zen
Zen Arado: maybe it would do the opposite :)
Zen Arado: trust generates trust
Zen Arado: :)
druth Vlodovic: meh
druth Vlodovic: lol, hugs
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: hugs