2012.05.21 19:00 - At the Edge of a Cliff

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Pema Pera: hi Storm!
Storm Nordwind: Hi Pema!
Pema Pera: I just read about the upgrade of the RR
Pema Pera: new rolling equipment and all that!
Storm Nordwind: It has to be experienced! ;)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera is wondering whether any branch lines will be build at some point
Pema Pera: hi Raffi!
Raffila Millgrove: greetings Pema and Storm
Storm Nordwind: I had thought about a branch to the Kira Cafe... but no serious plans, only musings
Storm Nordwind: Hi Raffi :)
Pema Pera: or a river with a ferry that allows the train to take the boat and . . . .
Storm Nordwind: Oh wow!
Pema Pera: like when taking the train from Germany to Denmark
Storm Nordwind: Indeed
Raffila Millgrove: nice idea.
Pema Pera: in a digital world it is a little easier to automate than in RL
Pema Pera: but still quite a challenge, I'm sure!
Storm Nordwind: It's the sort of thing that becomes an obsession when one really should be doing something else! ;-)
Pema Pera: (^_^)
Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
Storm Nordwind: Hi Eliza!
Raffila Millgrove: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
Pema Pera: can anyone remind me whether we have a prefered theme this week?
Eliza Madrigal: "transcendence" was suggested
Pema Pera: now that's a wide topic!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
Pema Pera: hi Eos!
Storm Nordwind waves to Eos
Raffila Millgrove: i thought you were aware of it pema, cause you mention the word in this morning's session.
Pema Pera: did I?
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Perma, Eliza, Storm Raffie
Pema Pera: that was so late at night for me, I can't remember now :)
Eliza Madrigal: we were discussing selflessness and otherlessness....
Pema Pera: if we take transcendence as "off the beaten track" it may be simpler to deal with
Pema Pera: at right angles to the usual path
Pema Pera: or going in a new dimension
Raffila Millgrove: Pema Pera: "nature" is a concept and asks to be transcended :)
Pema Pera: !
Raffila Millgrove: a statement you made this morning.
Pema Pera: well, I guess I was lucky :-)
Pema Pera: as in a lucky guess
Raffila Millgrove: i wondered how nature.. which nature was that.. human nature.. that asks to be transcended?
Pema Pera: oh, any concept asks to be transcended
Eos Amaterasu: what is there to transcend
Pema Pera: concepts are cages, keeping us trapped
Eos Amaterasu: and where does one go when one transcends
Pema Pera smiles
Pema Pera: the usual distinction between transcendence and immanence is artificial indeed
Raffila Millgrove: having attended transecendental meditation classes with a friend.. in the '60s at UCLA.. i heard a lot of things on this topic.
Pema Pera: as seen from within an illusion, that illusion has to be transcended -- but seen from the outside there was never any trap anyway
Eliza Madrigal: trap or trip...
Eliza Madrigal looks for sunglasses.....
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: evening, Stevie
Raffila Millgrove: hi stevie
stevenaia Michinaga: evening all
Pema Pera: hi Steve!
Storm Nordwind waves
Eos Amaterasu: Hi stevie
stevenaia Michinaga: nice upgrade on the train, Storm
Storm Nordwind smiles
Eliza Madrigal: yes it is
Eos Amaterasu: trainscendent
stevenaia Michinaga: no more flinstones technology
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind plays a rimshot
Eos Amaterasu: re transcendence, I think there are some applicable uses of that term
Pema Pera: Coming back to Eos' questions, yes, ultimately there is nothing to be transcended, nothing to solve, nothing to escape from -- but that's not how it looks and feels when you have a sense of being trapped
Pema Pera: snap :)
Pema Pera listens
Raffila Millgrove: could someone give a concrete exmple of when/where you felt trapped? and by "what"?
Eos Amaterasu: exactly that space of nothing to solve, nothing to escape from....
Eos Amaterasu: transcends everything
Storm Nordwind will sit and listen, never having consciously used the term, or any like it, in speech, thought or writing.
Pema Pera: trapped by feeling unhappy, say
Pema Pera: or feeling trapped by a particular problem
stevenaia Michinaga: Raffila, I have had a strange experience....
Pema Pera: any problem will do!
stevenaia Michinaga: felt I was literally at the edge of a cliff
stevenaia Michinaga: waiting for the eventual one more step, not to death but in a position of financial ruin
stevenaia Michinaga: (concrete enough)
stevenaia Michinaga: my reaction was... why was I not stressed...
stevenaia Michinaga: the next say the sun rose, and the winds shifted and crisis was magically averted
stevenaia Michinaga: next day
Eos Amaterasu: & what if it had not been?
stevenaia Michinaga: but it was an observed moment that felt so strange
stevenaia Michinaga: I do not know, it never seems to happen
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: _/ \_
Raffila Millgrove: but where you transdending? You feel that your lack of stress/worry about it.. was a kind of avoiding the trap.. that you transcend it?
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t include stress as preparation for callamity
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Pema Pera: yes, stress is a waste of energy, objectively speaking
Raffila Millgrove: what if it had come--had not magically been averted? did your non stress--aid in anyway? did it prepare you to fall off the cliff?
stevenaia Michinaga: I think it was dreamlike... when you fall, you never really hit bottom
Raffila Millgrove: thank you.
Eliza Madrigal: love to hit bottom in SL...plummet from the sky...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: if you are aware enough you can catch yourself
Eos Amaterasu: brush chest and shoulders
Raffila Millgrove: (me too Eliza.. love it)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Pema Pera: I take "transcendence" to be a simple term to describe that you can discard what is no longer needed; at first stress can be a reminder to pay attention -- once you've learned to do that, you can actually be more attentive without stress
stevenaia Michinaga: I think if it does come... Raffi, there will be no moment before to make you aware of it
stevenaia Michinaga: hello San
Raffila Millgrove: hi Santa.
Santoshima Resident: o
Santoshima Resident: hello
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San
Pema Pera: Hi Santo!
Eos Amaterasu: Hi San
stevenaia Michinaga: like planning for that car accident, not very productive
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: the key to martial arts is probably something like that
stevenaia Michinaga: so we can trancent some things in everyday life but not being frozen by possibilities
Raffila Millgrove: when one goes to the concrete on this topic, then .. i wonder why there would be so "much" to discuss.. Maybe i am missing something? wonder what else is there to talk about?
--BELL--
Pema Pera: I think a theme is just a trick to go into interesting stories about our life and concrete experiences -- as Steve just did. And then it is fun to connect those stories to general patterns, like wu-wei (not doing) that can then help us in other concrete situations.
Eos Amaterasu: Also there can be more to discover, and therefore say....
Eos Amaterasu: Like re transcendence, we tend to talk of transcending the bad stuff
Eliza Madrigal: `/me nods
Eos Amaterasu: but really there's also transcending the good stuff
Aphrodite Macbain: or wallowing in the bad stuff?
Eos Amaterasu: the term "impeccable" comes to mind
Aphrodite Macbain wonders whether it's very bright out
Eos Amaterasu: like good or bad drops off a duck's back
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: I think Steve implied the same for winning a jackpot :)
Eos Amaterasu: financial anti-ruin
stevenaia Michinaga: always working on that
Storm Nordwind: Are we talking about equanimity again, or this mystical transcendence word that some people use? ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: rising above it all
Eliza Madrigal: mumbles something about indras net and reflections
Raffila Millgrove: i think Storm that you could relate to this because transcendance from the traps of life.. can raise you to compassion.. can ease your path there.
Aphrodite Macbain: why do we want to transcend? Why not stay with the real?
Eos Amaterasu: that's the whole thing - transcendence is not another where
Aphrodite Macbain: take off your glasses
Eliza Madrigal: actually I think that is the most interesting thing about the word... that there is an false idea that it implies escape
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, it;s jsut another direction
Storm Nordwind: If I've ever transcended anything, it must be so long ago I've forgotten it, because I don't seem to slip back there! ;)
Pema Pera: how about taking "transcending" as "dropping", Storm?
Pema Pera: would that be a more interesting topic for you?
Storm Nordwind: It's always an interest topic, and perhaps not quite as fluff-filled ;)
Eos Amaterasu imagines a white rabbit
Aphrodite Macbain: To pass beyond the limits of: emotions that transcend understanding. 2. To be greater than, as in intensity or power; surpass: love that transcends infatuation. See Synonyms at excel. 3. To exist above and independent of (material experience or the universe): "One never can see the thing in itself, because the mind does not transcend phenomena" (Hilaire Belloc).
Aphrodite Macbain: above and independent of
Pema Pera: I think a theme word can help us to start an interesting conversation, like a taking off point, and then we can drop the word :)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: and see where the conversation flows to
Pema Pera: like Steve's example
Pema Pera: of life/death/ruin/being saved
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- I totally agree. I understood that was their puurpose
Aphrodite Macbain: a catalyst of discussion
Pema Pera: and Eos' question whether we have to escape from anything at all
Eliza Madrigal: so transcending can be giving in...staying with...
Pema Pera: and whether dropping should apply to the good and the bad things equally (as in letting go of attachment)
Eos Amaterasu: I had a sense of stevenaia being both there and not there, or seeing the details but not being sucked into some paroxysm by them
Aphrodite Macbain: nods. facing and being with reality
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm sorry I missed what he said
stevenaia Michinaga: new word for tonight...paroxysm
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: OMG
Aphrodite Macbain: does anyone want recussitating?
Santoshima Resident: yes!!!
Eos Amaterasu: swearing back at someone?
Pema Pera: :)
Aphrodite Macbain breathes heavily in San's direction
Raffila Millgrove: it was cool taht Steve included the word dream.. dreamlike quality.. like how you stand above and watch self.. from distance.
--BELL--
Pema Pera: one of the most important things I've learned in life is that most problems don't need to be solved in the terms that they are posed; more clarity, more seeing, is typically enough.
Pema Pera: whether we call that "transcendence" is a matter of taste :)
Eos Amaterasu: the non-mouselook SL way of viewing, seeing yourself from above and behind...
Eos Amaterasu: (re Raffie;'s comment)
Raffila Millgrove: i think it relates too.. to pema's statements about losing self.
Pema Pera: like finding yourself in a cramped position (physically or emotionally), once you see that, you're already out of it
Eliza Madrigal: there is a bit of 'traction' in an engaged dream... somehow that brings me to think of transcendence
Raffila Millgrove: about not.. investing to heavy in the "i" that you.. lose your cool.
Pema Pera: really see that, I mean
stevenaia Michinaga: you can learn much drom a dream point of view of RL
stevenaia Michinaga: *from
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Clifton.... please feel free to join us
Pema Pera: hi Clifton!
Raffila Millgrove: if you can transcend the "i" part.. it's easier to see clearly what's happening. do you really need to take any action etc.
Pema Pera: Nice meeting you, Clifton!
Eos Amaterasu: I think that "being in the flow" has that quality, 100% engaged yet just letting it go and happen :-)
Pema Pera: Clifton, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://wiki.playasbeing.org/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
Eliza Madrigal: please excuse me... night everyone and thank you
Clifton Rossini: hello
Eos Amaterasu: 'night E
Storm Nordwind waves
Pema Pera: bye Eliza
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Clifton
stevenaia Michinaga: night eliza
Raffila Millgrove: bye Eliza
Clifton Rossini: what do you talk about here?
Eos Amaterasu: (will also leave, sleep calls... bye and thanks, all)
stevenaia Michinaga: Clifton, see Pema's comment to you above
Clifton Rossini: no i do not mind being included
Pema Pera: thanks, Clifton!
Raffila Millgrove: ty Clift
Pema Pera: bye Eos!
Aphrodite Macbain: What IS the theme this week, transcendence?
Pema Pera: that's what I heard :)
stevenaia Michinaga: so trancendance could be another perspective on a situation
Pema Pera: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: in the moment or watching the moment
Aphrodite Macbain: looking at somethingwithoutr clinging or aversion?
Pema Pera: yes, I think these all apply
stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be a better way of understanding a moment, less... bias
Aphrodite Macbain: Does it mean disconnecting or simply not becoming engaged?
Aphrodite Macbain: It seems hard to be able to have compassion if one transcends human suffering
Pema Pera: oh, I think you can stay engaged, even more engaged, as Steve indicated
Storm Nordwind: I'd go with more engaged.
Pema Pera: and you don't have to disconnect
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: but aren't they the opposit? engagement and disconnection?
Pema Pera: by not being trapped by stress, and transcending stress, you can be more connected and more engaged
Storm Nordwind: But becoming more engaged with what is. Disconnecting from small view; engaging more total view
Pema Pera: I take that as the message of Steve's story
Raffila Millgrove: me too
Pema Pera nods at Storm
Aphrodite Macbain: so transcending some things to engage with others?
Aphrodite Macbain: nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: nod distraced by your own reaction
Pema Pera: I think we can't answer such questions in general, we need examples
Pema Pera: as Storm also gave
Storm Nordwind: the some is part of the others Aph! They're not mutually exclusive :)
Aphrodite Macbain: so it comes down to the choice between what we connect with and what we disengage from
Pema Pera: disconnecting is good with respect to small views, bad with respect to other things
Pema Pera: yes
Raffila Millgrove: if you are looking at this as "i" am facing total ruin.. then emotionally.. you cannot...cope too well, think straight. If you are looking from above on yourself.. it's more global view--distancing. rising above.
Aphrodite Macbain: so it is about making choices
Pema Pera nods
Pema Pera: but I think there are general lessons here -- such as not trying to solve a problem in the ways it first appears
Aphrodite Macbain: which requires discipline, experience, self knowledge
Raffila Millgrove: that relates I believe to pema's statement about getting trapped in concepts.
Pema Pera: and learning to see with wider angles
Raffila Millgrove: (re the problem solving phase)
Aphrodite Macbain: CLifton, what do you think? Does any of this make sense?
Pema Pera: and then as a consequence of that, all the rest: less getting trapped, more discipline, self knowledge, etc
--BELL--
Clifton Rossini: sometimes we cannot make any conscious decisions about a decision, it is a wave of phenomenon that sweeps us into the a problem and a solution
Pema Pera: yes, that's typically what happens :)
Aphrodite Macbain: nodes, yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: also nods
stevenaia Michinaga: unfortunatly much of this (for me) was learned through experience having exceeded my ability to handle a situation so I became stressed in a crsi that I could not do anything about, subsequesntly, things workes out and I realized later, it was pointless and self destrucive, no matter what the outcome would ahve been
Pema Pera: yes!!
Aphrodite Macbain: ah yes, I remmber this lesson Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: so,, I stopped
Pema Pera: we learn the hard way . . .
stevenaia Michinaga: and spend my time watching
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Storm Nordwind: A kind of "letting go"?
Aphrodite Macbain: of control
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: we always learn the hard way, the bedt lessons
Clifton Rossini: sometimes we have to surf on the wave of happenings and move minutely only incrimentally by small decisions to change our course
stevenaia Michinaga: yes storm
Raffila Millgrove: i think our brains. often make split second decisions for us.. that are not in our overal best interest--an emotional reaction that will be unwise. it's hard to stop it.. to put the brain into what i call manual transmission (stick shifting).. instead of leting it run on auto.
stevenaia Michinaga: Storm
Aphrodite Macbain: especially when you think it is your responsibility to fix things
Pema Pera: yes, Clifton, it's rare to suddenly change course, and it may not be wise :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Tiptoes away to dinner
Pema Pera: well, time for lunch here for me, thanks for the conversations!
stevenaia Michinaga: night Pema, night Aph
Storm Nordwind: Bon appetit!
Pema Pera: thanks!
Raffila Millgrove: bye Pema and Alph.
Pema Pera: bfn
stevenaia Michinaga: seems we alwaysbreaking for luncha nd dinner somewhere
Raffila Millgrove: nice meeting you Clifton and hope you come again soon. remember. 1 or 7. SL am or pm. we'll be here.
Clifton Rossini: yes the pleasure is mine
Clifton Rossini: ok send reminder , is there a group notice?
Raffila Millgrove: er no.
Raffila Millgrove: there isn't. you have to remember. 1 and 7.
Clifton Rossini: ok 1 or 7
Raffila Millgrove: altho yes we do have a play as being friends group.. but it's not active with notes each day.. just special events.
stevenaia Michinaga: AM and PM
Santoshima Resident: please escuse me ~
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm thinks of auto send reminder to group
stevenaia Michinaga: good idea Clifton
Raffila Millgrove: could someone join Clifton to the friends group?
Raffila Millgrove sees dinner in her future too. Bye all
Storm Nordwind waves
Clifton Rossini: friend of being, joined
stevenaia Michinaga: Clifton, there is a "Friends of Play as Being" in my profile, you can click on it and join the group
stevenaia Michinaga: aww ok
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Clifton Rossini: ok bye , and see you later
stevenaia Michinaga: I should be off too
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Storm, nice meeting you CLifton
Storm Nordwind: Bye!