The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

How are we?

Zen Arado: Hello Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Zen Arado: how are you?
Eliza Madrigal: oooh that question, Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: Hi Storm
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind wonders what the question was he just missed
Zen Arado: a very important question... How are you?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: one I often ask, too...
Storm Nordwind: Ah... THAT question... dear me, how to answer...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
Zen Arado: Maybe it is more important to ask it than to answer it
Zen Arado: Hi Bleu :)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: so maybe the response should be just "thank you"
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thank you, Zen
Zen Arado: I was sitting in my garden just now and paying attention to how I am
Storm Nordwind: Thank you for asking... I think perhaps I have transcended judgment and found equanimity in stillness ;)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: I was trying my direct experience instead of my thoughts about how I feel
Zen Arado: probably most of us don't really know how we are?
Zen Arado: That's why the question is difficult
Zen Arado: we are lost in our thoughts
Zen Arado: at least I usually am :-)
Eliza Madrigal: twinkle twinkle little star...
Zen Arado: I wonder if the restart has happened yet?
Storm Nordwind: And most people I meet seem to ask out of politeness or habit and really don't want a real answer!
Zen Arado: Yes that's true storm
Zen Arado: well, I have a cold
Zen Arado: je suis malade
Storm Nordwind passes Zen a Halls
Zen Arado: oh my voice typing doesn't work with French
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sorry to hear
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yaku!
Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
Zen Arado: I haven't had a cold for about three years so I can't complain
Eliza Madrigal: really...wow
Zen Arado: maybe it is hayfever
Bleu Oleander: could be allergies?
Zen Arado: hard to tell the difference sometimes but my eyes aren't itchy
Zen Arado: have you seen the restart happen yet storm?
Eliza Madrigal: always happening
Bleu Oleander: does that happen on Wednesdays?
Zen Arado: Yep
Eliza Madrigal: does seem to, but maybe today will be different... :::looks for groundhogs::::

Transcendence:

Zen Arado: I wrote some notes on transcendence
Zen Arado: just what came into my head
Eliza Madrigal listens
Zen Arado: I didn't even look up the definition
Bleu Oleander: :)
Zen Arado: trying to copy from Google Drive
Zen Arado: Transcendence has a meaning of going beyond. Going beyond what? Going beyond the ordinary and mundane routine of our lives? Perhaps it is a dream many of us share of finding some kind of enlightenment state, some kind of blissful state where we don’t suffer any more and can deal easily with any problems in life. Our problems wouldn’t then get us down, we would be able to transcend them.
Zen Arado: Does this seem to make sense?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: It's only something to discuss
Zen Arado: it reminds me of the last part of the heart Sutra
Zen Arado: Gate Gate...
Eliza Madrigal: maybe there is something to, going beyond trying to escape...
Zen Arado: But is it possible?
Zen Arado: I think it is a kind of dream
Bleu Oleander: kind of a mental vacation
Zen Arado: perhaps the dream that humans look for in many ways
Zen Arado: even drugs
Zen Arado: wb Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx, sry
Eliza Madrigal: there seems an embeddedness... have been thinking of imagination... and what imagination seems to be embedded in... memory...
Eliza Madrigal: enjoyed the talk Bleu gave a link to the other day, re being in absentia (?)
Zen Arado: embeddedness sounds a bit stuck?
Bleu Oleander: combining ideas in new ways
Zen Arado: Ah yes
Eliza Madrigal: open embeddedness perhaps not
Eliza Madrigal: (stucl)
Eliza Madrigal: k*
Bleu Oleander: oh yes, Deacons book

Zen Arado: of course we need to transcend the "ordinary'or we would never progress
Eliza Madrigal: and if it is the I that wants to get unstuck... what about accepting stuck...
Zen Arado: we need to use our creative imagination or are we would really be stuck?
Zen Arado: That seems a valid way of transcending?
Eliza Madrigal: or accepting loss as fundamental
Zen Arado: Yes Eliza
Zen Arado: Perhaps this is generated by a dissatisfaction with our ordinary life. We feel there should be more to life than this. We look to the future to provide a satisfaction that we don’t find in the present. We look forward to holidays, marriage, births, new relationships, new jobs, new hobbies or even new consumer products to provide us with happiness in the future.
Storm Nordwind: Do you think it's possible to live more or less permanently in a state of transcendence? Or is that simply a contradiction in terms?
Zen Arado: It seems to be in a way storm because the transcendent will then become the norm?
Bleu Oleander: then no need to call it transcendence
Zen Arado: Unless you've think you are transcending ordinary other people
Zen Arado: and that might lead to feelings of superiority
Eliza Madrigal: that's the thing
Storm Nordwind: Or compassion, rather than superiority
Zen Arado: I suppose it depends what you are transcending
Bleu Oleander: I think you can experience a state of transcendence with nature or art or compassion
Zen Arado: if transcending anger and jealousy and meanness etc that should be okay
Zen Arado: yes Bleu
Zen Arado: but are we meant to live in a state of transcendence or is it meant to be a transitory thing?
Bleu Oleander: I think its a state where the self seems to melt away, thins out a bit
Eliza Madrigal: thin places :)
Zen Arado: Perhaps we couldn't live like that
Bleu Oleander: I don't think one has to stay in that kind of state to appreciate the moments
Zen Arado: is it something like when they say you go into the mountains but them have to return to the market place again?
Eliza Madrigal: is so-called ordinary consciousness just self consciousness that gets in the way of acceptance/giving up hope/transcendence
Storm Nordwind: I think we can live like that, although then the word has no meaning for us - which is fine :)
Eliza Madrigal: end of the world as we know it?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: I remember a Tibetan Buddhist guru who liked to meditate alone in the mountains, but his teacher made him teach
Zen Arado: but he preferred his solitary meditation
Eliza Madrigal: have you ever heard that anyone who wants to be president shouldn't be?
Storm Nordwind: Yes. The life of the gods can be rather selfish! :)
Zen Arado: but perhaps even the little bit of teaching he did was so enriched by his solitary meditation
Storm Nordwind nods
Bleu Oleander: a quote from Time, Space and Knowledge: rather than being drawn further and further away from the rest of the world through our transcendeing efforts, we become more appreciative of what everything is and more intimately integrated with it.
Zen Arado: and we need people like that too
Eliza Madrigal: well Bodhidharma seemed to find a loophole...
Eliza Madrigal: got to go back to staring at the wall a while
Zen Arado: yes for nine years Eliza :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: quite a pause
Zen Arado: but maybe the things we do aren't as important as we think
Zen Arado: where does this dissatisfaction with our ordinary life, from :-)
Zen Arado: or is it just me?
Zen Arado: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: great quote Bleu
Bleu Oleander: not everyone is dissatisfied with "ordinary" life .... I don't view life as ordinary
Zen Arado: Aren't as important as we think I meant
Storm Nordwind: Dunno Zen, I expect many people have it, but it's not me.
Zen Arado: but we wouldn't try to improve anything then?
Zen Arado: We would just say it's okay the way it is
Storm Nordwind: You don't need dissatisfaction in order to improve things!!
Eliza Madrigal: more and more I am realizing that I can't answer these questions... I can't say that I am dissatisfied or satisfied...
Zen Arado: you would still have the original trains storm :-)
Storm Nordwind: Rubbish!
Eliza Madrigal: life is marvelous and also terrible, in many ways
Storm Nordwind: It's called PLAY!
Eliza Madrigal: heartbreaing and exquisite
Zen Arado: well I thought you needed that for motivation
Eliza Madrigal: k*
Zen Arado: what did Suzuki say
Zen Arado: brb
Eliza Madrigal: magical and ordinary
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: ordinary is an interesting word
Bleu Oleander: we never think we are
Zen Arado: something like "we are perfect as we are but we could do with a little improvement'

Bleu Oleander: only others are
Bleu Oleander: its a judgement call when we refer to others as ordinary
Zen Arado: I think with me satisfaction and dissatisfaction come and go
Storm Nordwind: An unnecessary one
Zen Arado: I mean if I look at a painting I'm not satisfied with it so I work some more
Zen Arado: and then I become satisfied
Zen Arado: yes really there is no ordinary
Storm Nordwind: But all the while you are dissatisfied with the painting, you can still be satisfied! That satisfaction is professional, or artistic, or technical, and it's not you.
Eliza Madrigal: interesting
Storm Nordwind: *That dissatisfaction
Eliza Madrigal: seed of departure in arrival
Zen Arado: well I suppose you could have different types of dissatisfaction
Zen Arado: I am rarely completely satisfied with a painting
Storm Nordwind: And then there is also the fun of trying the "what ifs"
Bleu Oleander: dissatisfaction with a painting is much different than dissatisfaction with life
Zen Arado: if I put one of my paintings on my wall, sooner or later I would have to take it down again and work at parts I'm not satisfied with
Zen Arado: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: funny how words breakdown into further subdivisions
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps part of you tries to portray the supreme satisfaction within you, and doesn't quite succeed. ;-)
Zen Arado: until eventually I don't know what I'm talking about :-)
Bleu Oleander: sometimes dissatisfaction with my painting pushes me past what might have been a good place to stop painting :)
Zen Arado: that's a good way to put it storm
Zen Arado: there is some transcendental form I'm trying to attain
Zen Arado: that's what Plato said
Zen Arado: there is some perfect version of the painting somewhere that I am trying to attain
Eliza Madrigal: place to stop :) am learning this too
Zen Arado: that's why Plato didn't like art
Zen Arado: he thought a painting of a tree was a copy of a tree in real life and there was a perfect version of that tree somewhere
Zen Arado: so it was only a copy of a copy
Bleu Oleander: that's why artists don't like Plato so much :)
Zen Arado: ha ha
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Eliza Madrigal: imagination may be more fundamental... some posit what we think of as true reality as a simulation too... amazingly beautiful as it often is... so...
Zen Arado: what we see is a mere simulation by our senses isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: how we see what we see?
Zen Arado: A version of reality constructed from sensory inputs by our brain
Bleu Oleander: from sensory inputs, from memory, from experience
Zen Arado: I wonder if some artists have the painting they are going to paint in their minds and only have to get it on canvas
Bleu Oleander: from how we are feeling ... which brings it back to where we started
Storm Nordwind: Some musicians do
Zen Arado: I seem to have to let things develop
Zen Arado: I even find that in writing philosophy
Zen Arado: I had to sit and freewrite
Zen Arado: just play with an idea and write and write
Zen Arado: and then edit and edit
Zen Arado: but if I didn't write first I wouldn't think of anything to write
Zen Arado: I don't know what I think unless I write it down
Zen Arado: is that the experience of others here?
Storm Nordwind: There are many ways to create - no right or wrong way for all.
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: I do think there is 'pure' experience...
Bleu Oleander: be creative with your creativity
Zen Arado: Yes
Zen Arado: and allowing it to manifest whatever way it does
Eliza Madrigal: trust
Bleu Oleander: what does that mean "pure" experience?

Storm Nordwind: When I do meditations that call for visualization, I find it much easier with my eyes open not closed. Eyes open does not distract me. Instead I seem to take the "stuff of light" and shape it into what I want to visualize. Much harder to do that with eyes closed.
Storm Nordwind: I dare say many people prefer the reverse
Zen Arado: interesting storm
Eliza Madrigal: pristine... free in its own place.... (re pure)... one can catch glimpses of this at times, with some actors for instance,.. heart essence of play
Storm Nordwind: So as a creative exercise I seem to go about it differently. Again, many ways.
Zen Arado: that is the Platonic view Eliza
Zen Arado: it lingers on in our thoughts
Zen Arado: that there is some kind of pure essence of things
Eliza Madrigal: well I don't make a judgment about copies... those can be free in their place too :)
Zen Arado: probably in the idea of pearl of self
Zen Arado: too
Bleu Oleander: free is another interesting word
Eliza Madrigal: and actualy I would call them copies
Eliza Madrigal: so a bit diff than the philosophical view
Bleu Oleander: free from what?
Eliza Madrigal: wouldn't*
Zen Arado: this is a slightly different view
Eliza Madrigal: it is an interesting word... lively... unencumbered...
Zen Arado: anyway, I've forgotten most of that stuff
Zen Arado: But the simple truth taught by most spiritual traditions appears to be that satisfaction is found best right here in the present. Our hope for future transcendence takes us away from full concentration in what is happening now. For one thing, we have no ultimate control over what will happen in the future. Our best laid plans often go awry. (As Robbie Burns said:) ) And future hopes make us even less contented with the present. Comparing it to some future vision makes it seem more drab than it really is.Perhaps the real transcendence is that of transcending hopes and illusory dreams, of being able to stay open and accepting of how our lives are working out perfectly the way they are.
Zen Arado: That's the last bit I wrote.... Any comments?
Eliza Madrigal: hope for future transcendence... maybe free of that in a way....
Bleu Oleander: there are as many ways to live a life as there are lives living
Zen Arado: That's a good point Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: agree too... as soon as describing things one way, myriad exceptions pop up
Storm Nordwind: Learn to be happy now, and you can always be happy. :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: am I looking for an answer or am I just investigating
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey xirana
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xirana
Zen Arado: Hi Xirana :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think we're just spending time together :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Xirana
Zen Arado: :-)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi everyone! :)
Bleu Oleander: have to get going ... nice to see you all :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Zen Arado: bye Bleu
Yakuzza Lethecus: and bye bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu :)
Xirana Oximoxi: bye Bleu:)
Bleu Oleander: bye bye

Eliza's poem:

Eliza Madrigal: I remember in my report from the first windhorse... I saw myself write something like "didn't we make up secrets just to say you are dear to me"
Zen Arado: thanks for coming
Eliza Madrigal: was a strange thing to write and i've thought about it a lot
Storm Nordwind: Oh that's beautiful Eliza!
Zen Arado: yes it seems to hint at something but I'm not sure what
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: very poetic
Storm Nordwind: Gorgeous
Eliza Madrigal: that was like that though.... I wasn't there.. it was just the time coming through... so one can't take credit or say thanks...
Zen Arado: maybe us humans can't bear unadorned reality
Eliza Madrigal: that kind of feeling
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Zen Arado: we have to create lots of things around it
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: we have to make thought patterns
Zen Arado: complicated structures
Eliza Madrigal: will ponder that while I am internetless over the next day or so :)
Zen Arado: oh why is that?
Eliza Madrigal: something going on.. maybe lightning has zapped the wireless process
Zen Arado: That's an awful way to be
Eliza Madrigal: :) well it won't be long
Yakuzza Lethecus: you´ll still be able to go to a starbugs :P
Xirana Oximoxi: good :)
Eliza Madrigal: but I am not going to come t the cafe much... have activities with the kids
Yakuzza Lethecus: bucks
Eliza Madrigal: maybe a timely thing :)
Storm Nordwind: bugs was good :)
Zen Arado: you can examine how it feels to be Internetless
Eliza Madrigal: "knowing when to stop"
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Korel :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Korel:)
Korel Laloix: Heya
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey korel
Zen Arado: I keep sniffing with this cold and the voice typing types "this"
Zen Arado: Hi Korel
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Zen
Zen Arado: I sent a note card of some notes I made but we were discussing
Eliza Madrigal: better than "sniff" between various sentences
Zen Arado: although we discussed other things too :)
Xirana Oximoxi: thanks Zen... I was not sure it was you who wroteit:)
Korel Laloix: Lovely.. thanks.
Zen Arado: it's nice to have a topic to think about a little
Zen Arado: it just seems to give a base for a discussion
Zen Arado: and if we all sat and wrote about transcendence we will come up with completely different Ideas
Zen Arado: it's amazing how different we all are
Zen Arado: that's what makes us interesting
Korel Laloix: To bad everyone can't be perfect like Wol... smiles
Zen Arado: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: hheeh
Xirana Oximoxi: I think so... we are very different and the best is that we can hear otheres and respect every point of view
Zen Arado: it's funny how this topic seems to conjure up the word 'perfect'
Eliza Madrigal: it is both these things, that the topic shows up many differences but also makes every topic sound the same
Zen Arado: what do you mean the same Eliza? P
Eliza Madrigal: :) well one sees the way every topic sort of opens into the others...
Eliza Madrigal: no sure boundaries
Zen Arado: I see what you mean
Zen Arado: ( he said b this etween sneezes )
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ohhh... must really be a cold Zen
Korel Laloix: I have issues with some definiation so transendance like I have issues with equinimity.
Zen Arado: maybe ultimately there is only one topic
Storm Nordwind: Like when a young child wants to be different, they write you a note with every letter a different color... but it ends up looking identical to the last one they wrote you!
Eliza Madrigal smiles at that analogy
Zen Arado: :-)

The ultimate topic...chocolate :)

Zen Arado: so that is our mission ... To find the ultimate topic
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Zen Arado: :-)
Korel Laloix: Oh, you mean chocolate then.
Zen Arado: the one all of these are leading to
Storm Nordwind: And then we can all go home? ;)
Eliza Madrigal: this mission will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
Xirana Oximoxi: nice simil:)...
Xirana Oximoxi: metaphor:)
Zen Arado: chocolate sounds good to me
Zen Arado: :-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Korel Laloix: Chocolate sounds great to me.
Storm Nordwind: if only I could find some in this country...
Korel Laloix: Is it possible to think about transending chocolate?
Zen Arado: you don't like American chocolate storm? D
Eliza Madrigal: aw.... there are some decent chocolateries... artisans in hiding...
Storm Nordwind: oxymoron Zen
Korel Laloix: And there is the internet.
Eliza Madrigal: yup
Zen Arado: Don't they import chocolate?
Storm Nordwind: yes and no. they make special American versions that get imported... with corn syrup and other yukkies
Eliza Madrigal: well americans wouldn't exist without corn syrup....
Zen Arado: oh... The dreaded corn syrup
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: how come I never hear about corn syrup in the UK? I
Storm Nordwind: How to destroy good chocolate (or anything at all really) - use corn syrup
Yakuzza Lethecus: for me chocolate with corn syrup would be something special to try
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Storm Nordwind: Resist Yaku! It ain't worth it!
Eliza Madrigal: (((yaku))))
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Korel Laloix: Not sure the point of corn syrup.
Eliza Madrigal: to package
Zen Arado: I keep hearing how bad it is for us
Korel Laloix: Sort of like table sugar, it just adds sweet with no flavor.
Korel Laloix: Not like honey.
Zen Arado: is it any worse than cane sugar?
Xirana Oximoxi: what, chocolat?
Zen Arado: Corn syrup
Eliza Madrigal: quite a bit actually... but there are different kinds of cane sugar, and bleaching process etc
Xirana Oximoxi: ah... I don't know it :)
Korel Laloix: I think cane sugar actually sort of has a taste to it... but we only really get beat sugar here.
Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, we get further and further away from direct 'food' :)
Korel Laloix: That is why I love our garden.
Eliza Madrigal: and nutrients, and that getting away from is what creates cravings

From chocolate to nutrition:

Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now.... have a nice day all! :).. and see you soon!
Zen Arado: you should read this guy's book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_...to_Do_About_It
Zen Arado: bye Xirana
Eliza Madrigal: I am thinking of attending a food conference in July... a transition movement in Miami
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Xiri :))
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye xirana
Xirana Oximoxi: I'll read the book:)
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye:)
Zen Arado: he gave a lecture in second life about it a month ago
Zen Arado: I read an article by a heart specialist a week ago who said much the same thing
Zen Arado: I think the medical establishment is coming around to accepting some of these ideas
Eliza Madrigal: we've known things for a looooooong time...
Zen Arado: mostly that refined carbohydrates are very bad for us
Korel Laloix: Accepting is not the right word though.
Zen Arado: well, the main view seems to be against fat, not against too much carbohydrate and sugar
Zen Arado: I did a course on nutrition and they recommend lots of carbs
Korel Laloix: There are medical reserach companies that are out there very willing for the business to examine things.... and yet the companies that want to market and alternative won't let the products be reserached.
Eliza Madrigal: I like reading the foodie chats at pab... maybe would be fun to work in more of those...
Storm Nordwind: His view certainly works if you use it as the basis for losing weight
Eliza Madrigal: Netflix: Food Fight http://bit.ly/JUox2G <---good film
Zen Arado: there are so many fad diets
Storm Nordwind: The diet we've come to accept as "normal" could be considered the actual fad
Korel Laloix: And a lot of things that do harm as well.
Eliza Madrigal: so strange to need a 'real food' revolution
Zen Arado: yes storm
Eliza Madrigal nods Storm
Korel Laloix: Would be nice if everyone could have a nice garden.
Zen Arado: whatever we are doing at the moment doesn't seem to be working that well anyway
Zen Arado: if you look at the statistics of obesity and people getting diabetes
Eliza Madrigal: :) It would
Storm Nordwind is reminded to go rinse the broccoli sprouts in a few minutes!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: the problem with diet studies is that you can't isolate everything that people do in their lives
Eliza Madrigal: before I go, here is the retreat report I referenced earlier...2010/08/05 Eliza Madrigal - PlayAsBeing Wiki http://bit.ly/JUlHuG
Eliza Madrigal: was nice to read it again
Zen Arado: okay thanks Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: in lieu of retreat this year
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Korel Laloix: Well, there are things that common sense tells you are bad for you... like brocholli.
Korel Laloix smiles
Zen Arado: I think some are going to Venice
Eliza Madrigal: haha Korel
Zen Arado: Eckardt Thorley says you should listen to what your body tells you when you go in a supermarket
Zen Arado: Tolle
Zen Arado: but I'm not sensitive enough to my body
Yakuzza Lethecus: very bad idea for me sice i usually go after work and am hungy then
Zen Arado: it seems to want lots of unhealthy things
Korel Laloix: So just eat choclate and drink coffee?
Korel Laloix: OK.. sounds good to me.
Eliza Madrigal: the movie I referenced says stay out of supermarkets when possible... or, eat from the outside and stear cleer of the center
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: steer Clear
Eliza Madrigal: *
Zen Arado: maybe we have to become more sensitive to what our body is telling us underneath the surface greed :-)
Korel Laloix: Off to another discussion.. thanks for the chat... take care.
Eliza Madrigal waves
Storm Nordwind waves
Zen Arado: thanks for coming everyone
Eliza Madrigal: thank you Zen
Zen Arado: bye for now :-)
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now everyone
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza, bye everyone
Storm Nordwind will check the Art Dome for new exhibits that need labeling
Zen Arado: my own place must be having a restart, I can't TP there
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: oh, yes it missed us today