The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Spam object at my place:

Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Zen :)
Zen Arado: I'm getting spam at my place
Zen Arado: somebody left a scripted object somewhere
Eliza Madrigal: you can 'return' it?
Zen Arado: can't find it
Zen Arado: I returned all objects
Zen Arado: I reported it to Linden but they haven't bothered yet
Eliza Madrigal: so you cleared the whole space in hopes of getting at the one invisible object?
Zen Arado: no...just objects not owned by me
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay :) Did you ask Storm about tricks to find things?
Zen Arado: haven't seen him. i asked him before about something similar and he just told me to report it to Linden
Zen Arado: it uses bad language which is annoying
Eliza Madrigal: disruptive
Zen Arado: some nasty kid probably
Eliza Madrigal: 40 year old kid...
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: hmm yeh but you think they should have more sense
Eliza Madrigal: not sure that would be a fruitful avenue to explore... I'd say that in our time 'maturity' seems quite different due to tech and different sorts of isolation, except that each time has its own puzzles in this regard
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to find a 'maturity' button sometimes, hah
Zen Arado: generally living longer shoud have some effect you would think
Eliza Madrigal: like 'super grow' for gardens :)
Zen Arado: yeh :)
Eliza Madrigal: time alone may not have effect... perhaps we need 'others' and circumstances in the world
Eliza Madrigal: and many people spend a lot more time with games than people
Zen Arado: sure but time also produces those experiences
Zen Arado: but some may not learn from them I guess
Eliza Madrigal: anyway, sorry to hear about the harrassment
Zen Arado: I spend little time there anyway
Zen Arado: and my gallery area seems ok
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: just the garden and meditation cabin

Retreating:

Zen Arado: you guys would have been in Ireland this week if it had worked out
Eliza Madrigal: so the biggest contrast... peaceful area like a frame for annoying object
Eliza Madrigal: ooohhh, goodness...
Eliza Madrigal: How is Ireland today? Green and pleasant?
Zen Arado: it has been wet
Zen Arado: rainy all week I think
Zen Arado: but showers only today
Eliza Madrigal: we could have sloshed around together
Zen Arado: ha ha
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: you would have needed an overcoat :)
Zen Arado: only about 14 degrees C
Zen Arado: max
Eliza Madrigal: nice excuse to shop :) brrr
Zen Arado: they had flooding last week in BelfaST
Zen Arado: wettest June for 100 years
Eliza Madrigal: I miss looking forward to retreating... setting aside that time... putting everything on hold...
Zen Arado: yeh me too..
Eliza Madrigal: there was often the 'lead up' time too, which felt to help me to focus in some ways
Zen Arado: couldn't you go and live in a hotel for a few days alone?
Zen Arado: alone is tougher though

Eliza Madrigal: yes... do take little jaunts . I guess it is just a matter of still lingering on the edges of disciplines
Eliza Madrigal: whereas PaB gatherings felt to include my own practice in a context of no particular practice... something like that
Zen Arado: it might be too much talking for me
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that's what people are looking for with polyamore, laughs
Zen Arado: prefer retreats to be silent
Eliza Madrigal: also a lot of talking, in that... "communication communication communication" to stay on the same page
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: communication takes a lot of energy
Eliza Madrigal: there is a body of work about the benefits of introversion, and also the downsides of introspection, now... sort of interesting that there is an effort to rethink the ways we come to know ourselves
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: getting away from thinking too
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: just sitting...
Zen Arado: but even at retreats people help me with meals and ask me what I want at dinnertime etc
Zen Arado: so never completely silent
Zen Arado: you don't realize just how busy your brain is until you sit silently for days and see it
Eliza Madrigal: complete silence is rather impossible... lately remebering this cave walk that I took the kids into several years ago... they turned off the lanterns for just a minute and it was amazing... didn't know there could be that much darkness... always a bit of light about generally
Zen Arado: Drumalis, near me where I go to meditate, is the quietest place I know
Zen Arado: it's eerie
Zen Arado: in its own grounds and away from traffic noise
Eliza Madrigal: the environment drops a lot before you get there :)
Zen Arado: yeh
Eliza Madrigal: do you remember when you first began meditating Zen?
Zen Arado: 2005
Zen Arado: maybe 2004 on my own
Eliza Madrigal: do you remember how you felt, how it helped, why you kept doing it?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :))
Zen Arado: but joined meditation group in 2005
Zen Arado: Hi Xirana :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Eliza, Zen!

Art display:

Zen Arado: did you send photos yet Xiri?
Xirana Oximoxi: yes Zen... I've tried one slideshow that was free... did Adams send it to you?
Xirana Oximoxi: and one I've done with a script I have too:)
Zen Arado: yes but haven't tried it yet
Xirana Oximoxi: ahhh do we have to send the fotos?
Eliza Madrigal: is this for a display?
Zen Arado: yes we have to send to Adams I think
Xirana Oximoxi: yes:)
Eliza Madrigal: excellent
Xirana Oximoxi: ok, I will send it to him
Zen Arado: I'm not sure now
Eliza Madrigal: wow wonderful

Zen Arado: anyway I have over 500 paintings photos and find it hard to select just 6
Xirana Oximoxi: wow :)
Zen Arado: it's 20 years worth of painting
Zen Arado: hard to summarize
Xirana Oximoxi: I prefer to choose some of the last I have done .)
Zen Arado: yeh
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful... so many ways to present
Zen Arado: but need to show how you started?
Zen Arado: how you developed?
Xirana Oximoxi: it depends on what questions he wants to center...if it's related to SL or not, I think
Zen Arado: yeh
Eliza Madrigal: showing 'a lifetime' may be better presented in a more elaborate way
Eliza Madrigal: mandala :)
Eliza Madrigal: hard to show progressions otherwise?
Zen Arado: I have painted such a variety of subjects
Zen Arado: hard to narrow it down
Eliza Madrigal nods
Xirana Oximoxi: yes! we will have to sintetize :)
Eliza Madrigal: will this be for Museum of Sacred Art?
Zen Arado: think so
Eliza Madrigal: nice :)
Zen Arado: anyway Eliza asked ma a question
Xirana Oximoxi: sintetize= to summarize
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: ok
Zen Arado: [07:26] Eliza (eliza.madrigal): do you remember how you felt, how it helped, why you kept doing it?
Eliza Madrigal: understood Xiri :))
Zen Arado: about meditation
Xirana Oximoxi: ok.. I've checked the word....I was not sure it was ok in English:)
Zen Arado: thought it was synthesize
Xirana Oximoxi: yes:)
Eliza Madrigal: I like the word particularly... yes that's the spelling... the word has a lot of energy I think
Xirana Oximoxi: I have a picture in Facebook about it...a senstence of Leonardo... moment I llok for it

Meditation and painting:

Zen Arado: I always liked meditation
Zen Arado: perhaps it suits soem more than others
Zen Arado: suits
Xirana Oximoxi: "Simplicity is the last step of sophistication" (it is writen in Portuguese)
Zen Arado: ha yes
Eliza Madrigal: !
Zen Arado: same with meditation
Zen Arado: allowing things to drop
Zen Arado: not adding techniques etc which some like to do I think
Eliza Madrigal: So the first time you tried meditation, it felt right for you Zen?
Zen Arado: well I only sat for 10 mins or so at first
Zen Arado: but soon was doing 20 and 30 mins
Zen Arado: then I looked for a group to sit with
Zen Arado: because they tell you it's best to do that
Zen Arado: my main book then was 'Everyday Zen' by Joko Beck
Eliza Madrigal: so you experimented on your own first, nice... me too
Zen Arado: the book made sense to me
Zen Arado: but you have to have faith at first I guess
Eliza Madrigal: think so?
Eliza Madrigal: what about just curiosity?
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: but that only takes you so far
Zen Arado: you need perseverance too
Xirana Oximoxi: I bough a book "Meditation für Dummies" long ago...and I have never tried... it explains the basics and how to start practicing 10 minutes every day

Eliza Madrigal: what about beginning painting? and for you too Xiri...?
Zen Arado: there is some kind of synchronicity with these things I think
Xirana Oximoxi: I think it's a matter of perseverance as you say Zen... I do think it's a good practice to mind and body... as it can be doing 10 minutes stretching every day... and I don't do it regularly
Zen Arado: I read a book about Buddhism many years earlier but it didn't grab me
Eliza Madrigal: does it take faith to begin painting?
Zen Arado: I just started painting for something to do when I retired
Zen Arado: if I hadn't enjoyed it I would have stopped again
Xirana Oximoxi: I don't think so, Eliza:)... I think it's a matter of passion and wanting to express something through this medium...
Eliza Madrigal: :) I see... I wondered because 'faith' seems to be part of what separates something into a 'spiritual' category... but there are different kinds of faith
Zen Arado: yes... I found it surprising how much I enjoyed it
Xirana Oximoxi: I've painted for nearly 20 years too... and don't rem,ember how it was that I begun...but I was drawing all day (when possible) :)
Zen Arado: but it can be hard work and frustrating too
Zen Arado: paintings don't always work out as you want
Xirana Oximoxi: ah yes.... it still happens to me ...

Teachers and Techniques:

Eliza Madrigal: I have a slightly different view of 'not adding techniques' (in meditation particularly) which is that one can develop as many techniques as they like while continually dropping self-importance… Like, when in the presence of a great 'teacher' there usually isn't much 'teachiness' left… suppose art may be similar... talent playing itself and the technique is there but invisible or assimilated...
Zen Arado: they finish up in the bin :)
Zen Arado: yeh...maybe techniques are needed, like props, at the beginning
Xirana Oximoxi: techniques are needed, you must learn ... so you can forget them
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: I was reading a great article about Chogyam Trungpa the other day
Zen Arado: yes Xiri :)
Eliza Madrigal: interesting to think of your beginning Xiri... beginning and then just taking it to it like fish to water that way
Eliza Madrigal listens
Zen Arado: how he simply kept pulling the rug away from students
Zen Arado: when they tried to formulate practice
Zen Arado: he could be a topic on his own
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Zen Arado: I went to some painting teachers at the start
Eliza Madrigal: I've felt like that most of my life... not really allowed to rely on one path or practice... not get too comfortable
Xirana Oximoxi: yes... topics can be explored for more long time than we do...but it's good to point it..it's a stard to think about:)
Zen Arado: I find I keep changing naturally
Zen Arado: I just go with it
Zen Arado: maybe others like to find something that seems right and stick with it
Eliza Madrigal: I took a painting class once... but wanted to do my own thing, hha... maybe that's the issue with practice too
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, me too... we change and paintings do change at the same time...sometimes without noticing it until some time later
Zen Arado: it's like ideas eveove
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: evolve
Xirana Oximoxi: to do your own thing is very good:) specially with paintings and art:)
Zen Arado: I know people have gone to the same painting class for over 10 years
Eliza Madrigal: but I so appreciate skill
Eliza Madrigal: precision
Zen Arado: then they paint the same as the teacher
Eliza Madrigal: balances I suppose
Zen Arado: some teachers take the brush off you and paint on your picture
Zen Arado: I never liked that
Eliza Madrigal: eep
Zen Arado: teachers should only point
Eliza Madrigal: but I can see how in the beginning they may want to show you something that way
Zen Arado: I think
Xirana Oximoxi: it happened to me too:)) and didn't like it at all....but sometimes is good when you are in the process of learning techniques
Zen Arado: yeh ok at the start

Eliza Madrigal: my daughter had this experience when learning pastels, and my son recently told me he doesen't ask for helpl much in art class because he doesn't want that to happen
Eliza Madrigal: that the teacher takes over
Xirana Oximoxi: to tell the truth... I could not believe this teacher, because I didn't like his paintings at all:)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: but some in my art club think there is a 'right' way to paint
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: 'from the heart'
Eliza Madrigal: sophistication to simplicity to serendipity...
Zen Arado: who knows
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: yeah
Zen Arado: I am guilty of thinking my way is right too I guess
Zen Arado: human trait...nail things down
Xirana Oximoxi: the 'right' way actually is very difficult to state, to precise.... but there are some basics of composition that come from classical masters...if you learn them it may also help doing abstracts (that's my view)
Zen Arado: find the 'correct' strategy
Eliza Madrigal: that makes great sense Xiri
Zen Arado: even in abstracts there are rules
Eliza Madrigal: maybe relevance for the science and PaB topic too
Zen Arado: I'm not sure I know what science is any more
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, I think so ...or at least a great amount of reflexion
Xirana Oximoxi: (about abstrats and rules)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: I am trying to do a Rothko type painting
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ooh... at that scale too?
Zen Arado: oh no ;)
Eliza Madrigal: in SL you can make it that scale ;-)
Zen Arado: he painted small ones too
Zen Arado: true :)
Zen Arado: maybe I'll just paint for SL
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't 'get' Rothko until being in physical presence with a painting at MOMA
Zen Arado: the PaB murals ;)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: not sure I get him now
Zen Arado: but something to try
Eliza Madrigal: I think with you guys and Bleu and Storm, Sharon, some others ... we are ready for a RL PaB exhibition
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: it's fun to explore new ways:) and more if we can show here in SL :))
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: I have two paintings to exhibit in RL later this month
Zen Arado: art club exhibition
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Eliza Madrigal: nice... were we in Ireland... could go see :)
Xirana Oximoxi: oh yes! sure! :-)
Zen Arado: in my home town
Eliza Madrigal: but I guess your apartment is like an exhibition hall now Zen?
Zen Arado: I only have a few of my paintings on my walls
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now... have a nice time Eliza and Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Xiri, have a lovely day
Zen Arado: kk byee Xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: see you soon!
Zen Arado: ty for coming
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye
Xirana Oximoxi: yvw!
Eliza Madrigal: should go too really.... like how the conversation took so may diversions and still stayed sort of on a topic
Eliza Madrigal: interesting when that happens

The science bit:

Zen Arado: we didn't talk much science :)
Eliza Madrigal: ah, but we did :) hahah
Zen Arado: my apprehension of science is from an engineering degree
Zen Arado: something you do for career
Zen Arado: not enjoyment
Eliza Madrigal: amateur scientists abound
Zen Arado: I did a science coursse last year
Zen Arado: natural science
Eliza Madrigal: lots of interesting things found by amateur astronomers for instance
Zen Arado: about plants
Zen Arado: yeh that's true
Zen Arado: geoology would be interesting too
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to study that
Zen Arado: but not engineering problems
Zen Arado: though tech is interesting too
Zen Arado: I miss it a bit
Zen Arado: the depth
Zen Arado: maybe why I still do short courses

Eliza Madrigal: I feel this too... wanting to completely specialize and 'commit' while also loving the freedom of change
Zen Arado: has always been my problem...to many things interest me
Eliza Madrigal: if I listen to almost any specialist talk about their chosen field, it has relevance for my own on a different scale perhaps...
Zen Arado: nods
Zen Arado: we need a few more lifetimes
Eliza Madrigal: or to play as pema who seems to be having many in one
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Zen Arado: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: okay... time to wander
Zen Arado: yep
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Zen :)
Zen Arado: thanks for coming
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: always interesting :)) Bye for now
Zen Arado: byee