The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Introductory, weather and lag:

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
Yakuzza Lethecus: good day to you
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: and maybe good tea too, about to make some coffee :)
Zen Arado: yeh ..a nice sunny day
Yakuzza Lethecus: first day over 30 degree´s for me today
Zen Arado: wow
Zen Arado: it never gets to that here
Zen Arado: it's about 18 C here
Zen Arado: maybe 30C in London
Zen Arado: never too hot never too cold here
Zen Arado: I like that
Zen Arado: it's because I am beside the sea
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, me too, well but ur on the east coast, well still up north, is there already influence since the wind has to pass the island ?
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: if wind is from SW is best
Zen Arado: warmest
Zen Arado: NE is coldest
Zen Arado: I'm checking frame rate
Zen Arado: where is that other measurement Storm mentioned?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey xirana,eliza
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza, Xirana :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zen, Eliza, Yaku:)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: don´t know which one
Zen Arado: one that is 4 ms or something
Zen Arado: and is too high
Zen Arado: gives up scratching head
Zen Arado: Hi Bleu :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Bleu! :)
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Eliza Madrigal: really love the sakura avatar :::beams::::
Bleu Oleander: yes me too
Bleu Oleander: makes me feel good :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: morning bleu
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: I'm painting a picture like that atm
Bleu Oleander: oh lovely
Bleu Oleander: was thinking of doing the same Zen
Zen Arado: it's oil so I left it aside for a while
Eliza Madrigal: ohh :))
Zen Arado: let it dry
Zen Arado: or might try a pastel
Eliza Madrigal: that's what I'm doing with my mind atm ... putting it aside and letting it dry
Bleu Oleander: pastel would be great
Bleu Oleander: haha Eliza
Zen Arado: would be easier anyway
Bleu Oleander: don't let it dry out though
Xirana Oximoxi: acrylics do dry very quick and you can get very similar effects to oils
Eliza Madrigal: :) then I could put it in a file and start a new one
Zen Arado: I am in a quandary with science talk
Zen Arado: :)
Arisia Vita: Hi all
Arisia Vita: I bring a guest
Bleu Oleander: hi Ari
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ari
Zen Arado: Hi Ari
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Ari
Zen Arado: Hi Candy
Bleu Oleander: what's your quandry Zen?
Yakuzza Lethecus: and hello candy
Candybabe Felisimo: hello ^^
Arisia Vita: Candy is a special friend
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari and Candy
Bleu Oleander: hi Candy
Candybabe Felisimo: nice to be here
Eliza Madrigal: lovely to meet you Candy, welcome
Bleu Oleander: welcome Candy :)
Arisia Vita: she wonders what PaB is all about
Arisia Vita: I could only smile and say...come
Xirana Oximoxi: nice to meet you Candy:)
Zen Arado: oh I'll send a notecard
Arisia Vita: you will like it
Eliza Madrigal: well, one thing, is the pauses each fifteen mintes... coming up :)

Candybabe Felisimo: smiles
Arisia Vita: and Candy, these are all special friends too
Zen Arado: are you ok that what we say here is recorded and put on a Wiki candy?
Candybabe Felisimo: wonderful ^^
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: we need your permission to add any comments you might make
Zen Arado: Candy?
Candybabe Felisimo: it is fine
Arisia Vita: :)
Zen Arado: great thanks

Science Quandary:

Eliza Madrigal: so, science quandary, Zen?
Zen Arado: yep
Bleu Oleander listens
Zen Arado: not sure it can get us anywhere to any spiritual understanding
Zen Arado: if that is what is being proposed lately?
Zen Arado: is it?
Eliza Madrigal: :) I don't think so
Bleu Oleander: what is spiritual understanding?
Zen Arado: Hi Storm
Bleu Oleander: hi Storm
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :)
Arisia Vita: welcome Storm
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Storm:)
Storm Nordwind: Hello all. Sorry so late
Eliza Madrigal: BUT... I did want to share something I heard yesterday....
Arisia Vita: you are worth the wait
Candybabe Felisimo: giggles at Storm
Bleu Oleander: do you mean finding meaning for yourself?
Arisia Vita: restart?
Candybabe Felisimo: 0.o restart
Arisia Vita: shucks
Zen Arado: awakening, enlightenment, illumination of our basic nature?
Eliza Madrigal: Evidently in Jill Bolte Taylor's book, she says that an 'emotion' lasts 90 seconds...
Bleu Oleander: oops
Storm Nordwind: The Cafe will be OK
Arisia Vita: we have 5 mins to run to the bushes
Xirana Oximoxi: yes..we can go to Kira cafe:)
Arisia Vita: let's be off then
Xirana Oximoxi: walkinmg:)
Bruce Mowbray: Nothing much happening here today, Yaku?
Bruce Mowbray: ooopss --- region restart coming. . .

Region Restart here:

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): wow Bleu, an even better view of Avi... fantastic

Zen (zen.arado): does this make any sense?
Zen (zen.arado): "....this basic understanding brings out the undeniable fact that, other than this clear apperception that the primal substance of all sentient (and insentient) beings is the same noumenon, there cannot be any action, any effort, that can lead an individual to his “enlightenment”. This is so because such belief is based on the concept that there is a “he” to be enlightened, whereas “enlightenment” merely denotes a state of beingness where no separate individual can exist. Any action, any practice is phenomenal, and it is obvious that a phenomenon cannot act upon noumenon—a shadow cannot act upon its substance.' Ramesh Balsekar

Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)) Eliza
Zen (zen.arado): so science could be construed as some kind of effort to get somewhere?
Zen (zen.arado): when actually it is only objectifying something that is subjective?
Zen (zen.arado): (groping for meaning here myself)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): if (posited) enlightenment is simply awareness of natural state... then explorations into the sources of nature seem compatible
Zen (zen.arado): but it presupposes a person doing the investigation
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): sets up a straw person
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): to observe
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I think it's natural to be curious about who we are and where we find ourselves ... can go about that many ways
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): "In other words, any intentional procedure, practice or action of any kind is a definite obstruction to what is known as awakening or illumination or enlightenment. This is because any intentional deed is based on the superstition that an individual exists. Enlightenment is the name given to the noumenal state. How can a phenomenal object be enlightened?!"" Ramesh Balkesar

Zen (zen.arado): agree Bleu
Zen (zen.arado): it is fine to investigate anything in the universe
Bleu (bleu.oleander): anything we can investigate
Zen (zen.arado): just not ....
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): curiosity is what have lead us to the 'place' we are' :)
Zen (zen.arado): don'tknow how to put it
Bleu (bleu.oleander): starting from ignorance as Pema was saying
Zen (zen.arado): but perhaps the noumenal state is unknowable
Zen (zen.arado): is that a state of ignorance?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): remaining open to what we don't know
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): alive curiosity seems an uninterrupted awareness of unknowing ... humility allowing for grace, opening, discovery...
Bleu (bleu.oleander): it's ok to say "I don't know"
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so enlightenment as endlessly curious works for me :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): for me also
Zen (zen.arado): we can't stop ourselves endlessly poking about in investigating things anyway
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): questioning even the questioner in the mix
Ari (arisia.vita): and almost as important as "I don't know" is "maybe I'm wrong"
Ari (arisia.vita): If you really want to rediscover wonder, you need to step outside of that tiny terrified space of rightness and look around at each other, and look out at the vastness and complexity and mystery of the universe and be able to say wow, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. - Kathryn Schulz: On Being Wrong
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) yes

Bleu (bleu.oleander): ha ... more than likely I'm wrong :)
Zen (zen.arado): good quote Ari
Storm Nordwind: If you never make a mistake, you never make a discovery
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...and a lot of times not easy to recognise:)
Zen (zen.arado): pauses
Bleu (bleu.oleander): in that case, I should be well on my way to a discovery :)
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): me too:)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Suzuki Roshi --- life of a zen master - continual mistake ...
Zen (zen.arado): nods
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but if we all agree on this we must be missing something :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ?
Zen (zen.arado): maybe there is a foundational unknowable noumenon
Zen (zen.arado): butt ok to investigate everything else?
Zen (zen.arado): I mean , investigating black holes might lead to unexpected things
Zen (zen.arado): even to spiritual insights?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): probably all is related
Bleu (bleu.oleander): can we investigate without using our senses? Kant's noumenon?
Zen (zen.arado): Kant's noumenon was different I think
Zen (zen.arado): but I forget
Bleu (bleu.oleander): how were you using the word Zen?
Ari (arisia.vita): welcome Candy!
Storm Nordwind: Welcome back candybabe :)
Zen (zen.arado): in this context this author is talking about underlying reality
Candybabe Felisimo: thanks
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): welcome back, Candy :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): wb Candy
Zen (zen.arado): wb Candy
Zen (zen.arado): "One master with whom I studied used to laugh at how easily and commonly we would grasp at new identities. As for himself, he would say, "I am none of that. I am not this body, so I was never born and will never die. I am nothing and I am everything. Your identities make all your problems. Discover what is beyond them, the delight of the timeless, the deathless." "Jack Kornfield

Zen (zen.arado): Kornfield
Zen (zen.arado): same sentiment I think
Zen (zen.arado): the timeless, the deathless
Zen (zen.arado): is it investigable
Zen (zen.arado): reducible to a theory?

Methodology:

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): the main thing is to become more direct and precise and personal, and then we will see if so
Zen (zen.arado): is that in our experience then?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): when I heard about this "90 seconds" of emotion, I thought, how practical ... I can personally test that....
Zen (zen.arado): our an objective method?
Zen (zen.arado): yes that's experiential
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): here we stop for 90 seconds, and if an emotion is really that fleeting whey does it seem it can last the day...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): *why
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): am I giving it more 'time'
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): these kinds of things... I can look at and take notes about
Zen (zen.arado): so can the subjective experience be written down and analysed?
Zen (zen.arado): ah you have taken notes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes within the limits of language
Zen (zen.arado): maybe we should all start doing that
Ari (arisia.vita): Words are the clothes meaning wears to go out in public, and are as subject to fashion.
Zen (zen.arado): like recording dreams too
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :) Ari
Zen (zen.arado): true Ari
Bleu (bleu.oleander): embedded in culture
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I think the personal notes are important, because as we see in theme sessions we can't share all that we are finding over time... but it takes a good deal of responsibility, personally, to follow through
Zen (zen.arado): but they are all we have to understand the universe with :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): we're really good at generating ideas and insights :)
Zen (zen.arado): 'It's only words, but words are all I have...'
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but not sure we 'fly' them
Candybabe Felisimo: so, it is suggested to record these experiences, or our thoughts abuot them?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh we need to be more practical
Storm Nordwind: /me thinks he has far too few emotions interrupting his happiness for his log to have much content :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): too much content , absolutly agree:))
Zen (zen.arado): thinking along those lines Candy
Storm Nordwind: too content for content! ;)
Zen (zen.arado): we are accused of being too waffly I think :)

Emotions:

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): emotions may come and go quickly... that seems log-able if looked at anew
Zen (zen.arado): have to get more systematic
Bleu (bleu.oleander): there are also unconscious emotions
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Zen (zen.arado): hwo do we examine emotions ?
Storm Nordwind: What are they Bleu?
Candybabe Felisimo: oour body language can sometimes break through that barrier of misunderstanding
Bleu (bleu.oleander): emotions that affect us but that we are unaware of
Zen (zen.arado): recordabe emotions
Storm Nordwind: Like?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): an emotion you are aware of is a feeling
Zen (zen.arado): location of feeling would be a start?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): emotions are sets of physical reactions
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): once we are aware of them we "feel" them
Zen (zen.arado): to what mind thinks
Storm Nordwind: How can you not be aware of them from the start?!
Zen (zen.arado): aware of emotion but not aware of where and what it is dong in body?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): we are not aware of most of our thoughts and physical reactions
Zen (zen.arado): many ignorant of that I think
Bleu (bleu.oleander): what all our cells are up to
Zen (zen.arado): we are so much in the mind
Zen (zen.arado): that's waht vipassana meditation is about
Bleu (bleu.oleander): aware only of what comes into consciousness
Bleu (bleu.oleander): which is apparently not that much
Zen (zen.arado): redirecting thoughts from endless churning to actual site of feeling in body
Storm Nordwind: Physical reaction - like sneezing at pollen for example - isn't what most people i know call emotion. But perhaps this is a new country and I'm learning! :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that seems why investigation is important... surprising sometimes to find that though one thought they were making a decision based on one thing there could have been triggers... and we tend to think we are behaving rationally or deliberately
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but that 'others' are not
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): well if someone says something and you feel hurt...where is the hurt experienced in your body?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): no, I mean all the physical changes that your body undergoes for example experiencing fear
Zen (zen.arado): it's different for different people
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): good point Bleu
Bleu (bleu.oleander): heart rate changes etc.
Storm Nordwind: But you're aware of fear, Bleu, unless you don't experience fear.
Bleu (bleu.oleander): so the collection of changes = emotion
Bleu (bleu.oleander): you "feel" the changes
Zen (zen.arado): well it's the thoughts too ?
Ari (arisia.vita): where do your feelings live?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): you're aware of fear because you feel the changes
Zen (zen.arado): thoughts and feelings
Zen (zen.arado): both intertwine
Bleu (bleu.oleander): but prior to feelings there are actual physical changes that occur
Zen (zen.arado): from brain signals?
Storm Nordwind: perhaps fear is a poor example as I don't experience it. brb ups
Bleu (bleu.oleander): fear is a very real emotion
Zen (zen.arado): yes fear sends signals rto body to get ready
Zen (zen.arado): for fight or flight
Bleu (bleu.oleander): and one of the easiet to study
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): one thing I've learned personally through contemplation, is that what used to seem 'bundled' to me is actually made up of lots of little sensations... emotionally... so it can feel overwhelming in the bundle, but slown down and seen more vividly ... not as much so - science sometimes seems to be corroborating with scans, that the order of our processes can be counter-intuitive
Zen (zen.arado): many things happen physilogically
Bleu (bleu.oleander): fear evolved to help us survive
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): would be bad if we didn't have fear
Zen (zen.arado): wouldn't last long maybe
Zen (zen.arado): but we can also see through irrational fear
Bleu (bleu.oleander): better to think it's a tiger in the bush and get out of its way than to stick around and be lunch
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): fear, too, may be made up of many things ... different sorts of fear
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): as with shyness
Zen (zen.arado): let go of fear mechanisms no longer applicable to modern age
Zen (zen.arado): yep:)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): a certain amount of fear is helpful ... debilitating if overdone
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so precision is meant to see some of these things perhaps... rather than having an umbrella of generalized labels
Zen (zen.arado): remember that as why the fearful survived to pass their genes to us:)
Storm Nordwind: /me is back after dealing with the nice UPS man :)
Zen (zen.arado): wb Strom
Candybabe Felisimo: giggles
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I would like to hear Storm explainign why he does not experience fear..., but now I must go...I'll read the log later :) nice time to all and see you soon! :-)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)) Xiri
Bleu (bleu.oleander): bye Xiri
Storm Nordwind: /me waves
Zen (zen.arado): byee Xiri :)
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): bye xirana
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye:)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I have to go as well
Zen (zen.arado): yes Storm..you don't experience fear?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): take care all
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): bye bleu
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): OK... I reached for my undried mind this morning and added to it.. sigh... :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): bye for now
Zen (zen.arado): byee Bleu
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Bye Bleu :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :))
Storm Nordwind: No I don't Zen. I think I did once upon a time. But no longer.
Ari (arisia.vita): how did you master it?
Zen (zen.arado): but surely some fear is healthy?
Storm Nordwind: Through memory. Through trust. through seeing what was real (for me at least).
Zen (zen.arado): maybe you mean unnecessary fear?
Storm Nordwind: I don't drive on the wrong side of the road, but I don't need fear to ensure that!
Storm Nordwind: What would be necessary fear Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): trying to think
Storm Nordwind: :)
Zen (zen.arado): if an escaped tiger came around the corner
Zen (zen.arado): fear might be helpful ;)
Candybabe Felisimo: lol
Storm Nordwind: A plausible example for sure ;)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (fwiw, in the strangers to ourselves book, the physical reaction of fear is said to come 'after' our dealing with the moment that may have come up that we attributed it to, so the physical response may indeed not be as necessary as we think except to regulate our bodies in some way)
Zen (zen.arado): that extra adrenalin might come in handy
Storm Nordwind: adrenalin doesn't need fear does it?
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Ari (arisia.vita): fear takes over when logic is too slow
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it may not actually 'help' us deal with the tiger
Zen (zen.arado): but fear is faster I think
Zen (zen.arado): yes the fear reaction is necessarily faster than our thinking brain
Storm Nordwind: My reactions have always been faster than anyone i know, but there's no fear involved as far as i can tell
Storm Nordwind: /me should have been a racing driver ;)
Candybabe Felisimo: smiles
Zen (zen.arado): yes ;)
Ari (arisia.vita): it is better to be a friend and teacher
Storm Nordwind: Won me lots of cash at parties too!
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I've heard from friends very well-trained in martial arts of different kinds, that there is the response to the situation and their training actually keeps it from taking a toll beyond the moment
Zen (zen.arado): I felt fear just getting an MRI scan
Zen (zen.arado): yes good point Eliza
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I feel fear too... but also have a curiosity when feeling it now
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it is like I added that, which opens it a bit
Zen (zen.arado): good to investigate
Zen (zen.arado): but it starts to go then
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but I definitely have exaggerrated imaginations about what I think will happen in certain scenarios, which generates fear of a sort
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): playing with fear to analyse and loose it ?
Storm Nordwind: But what is the fear of? That the self won't continue? of discomfort? of what?
Zen (zen.arado): yes Yaku
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods Yaku
Zen (zen.arado): becuase it is often irrational
Zen (zen.arado): the bogey man that is seen
Zen (zen.arado): and then evaporates
Zen (zen.arado): because only a mind construction
Ari (arisia.vita): It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance
 It's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance
 It's the one who won't be taken who cannot seem to give
 And the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live
Zen (zen.arado): good Ari
Ari (arisia.vita): lyrics from "The Rose"
Zen (zen.arado): but that implies giving in to the fear does it not?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): for me, I can see identities around letting people down in some way, especially as a mom... things like that...
Ari (arisia.vita): or finding a teacher to help you handle it
Zen (zen.arado): it's the staying with and overcoming the fear that makes us stronger
Storm Nordwind: Once overcome, why need it ever return?
Zen (zen.arado): fear of failure...
Zen (zen.arado): yes ...
Zen (zen.arado): once overcome it is banished
Zen (zen.arado): until another one materializes...:)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): OK but do you 'pick up' on someone 'else's fear sometimes Storm?
Storm Nordwind: So if you banish the root of fear, what will manifest ever again?
Zen (zen.arado): yes Storm....'root' of fear
Ari (arisia.vita): what is left when fear is conquered?
Storm Nordwind: Sure Eliza... I am like an antenna... but I know well enough that it's not coming from me
Storm Nordwind: Joy Ari!!!
Zen (zen.arado): if root is dissolved it can't remanifest in otyher guises
Ari (arisia.vita): well said
Ari (arisia.vita): then in being with all of you, I have conquered fear
Storm Nordwind: /me smiles
Zen (zen.arado): well...maybe needs practice too
Storm Nordwind: sure :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I'd rather make friends with fear ... see its hidden aspects or offerings ...
Zen (zen.arado): not just intellectual realization
Zen (zen.arado): yes Eliza
Zen (zen.arado): and feel them
Zen (zen.arado): notice the feeling
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): but not all fears are irrational, fears might be valid until we understand why we are banging with our head in front of the wall and not walking the door
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): yes Yaku
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): indicator lights
Zen (zen.arado): or fear of traffic when crossing road
Zen (zen.arado): but is that really fear
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): on retreat during the night walk the second time, I expected to feel frightened but instead found myself giggling... fear was still there but I was enjoying it because I had more familiarity than the year before
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): also a safe environment, supports
Zen (zen.arado): and you faced up to it?
Ari (arisia.vita): fear feeds on the unknown
Zen (zen.arado): yes Ari
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): in a way I guess so ... without the fear it wouldn't have been as much fun
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or without the unknown
Zen (zen.arado): imagination can exaggerate fear
Storm Nordwind: When you have touched the face of death, and seen it for what it is, fear can leave you - possibly forever.
Zen (zen.arado): and less ego less fear?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): something to that, indeed, Storm
Zen (zen.arado): 'There is but one philosophical problem and that is suicide' Camus
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): after all these years I still can't relate to the word ego much ... but perhaps that's why there are death practices ... familiarity, friendliess, in a way....
Ari (arisia.vita): Paradoxically, man's endless search for knowledge has too often plundered his courage and warped his vision, so that he has faced the unknown with terror rather than awe, and probed the darkness with a scream rather than a light. Yet there have always been men who have touched the texture of tomorrow with understanding and with courage. Through these men we may yet touch the stars. - Outer Limits ('Behold Eck')

Zen (zen.arado): I think of ego as that force that makes me feel like a separate individual
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ah, that quote has 'song' in it Ari :)
Ari (arisia.vita): ty
Storm Nordwind: "probed the darkness with a scream rather than a light" - so true, such a missed opportunity
Zen (zen.arado): 'search for knowledge' hmm
Zen (zen.arado): maybe that's the problem
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): searching out for inner knowing
Zen (zen.arado): we are such a knowledge seeking driven species
Storm Nordwind: Even some gods are knowledge driven! ;-)
Zen (zen.arado): maybe thought is the enemy as UG Krishnamurti said
Zen (zen.arado): eating from the tree of knowledge
Storm Nordwind: /me is reminded it's Wednesday today, named after such a god!
Zen (zen.arado): oh? Woden?
Storm Nordwind: Yes indeed. or Odin in Old Norse
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ah :)
Zen (zen.arado): and did he perish for seeking knowledge?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): knowledge is wonderful... when illuminated by awareness... they need each other
Ari (arisia.vita): If facts are the seeds that later produce knowledge and wisdom, then the emotions and the impressions of the senses are the fertile soil in which the seeds must grow. - Rachel Carson
Storm Nordwind: Awareness brings perspective and hence wisdom
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) nice image Ari ... emotions as part of the necessary nutrients
Zen (zen.arado): are facts important
Zen (zen.arado): ?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): when circulating correctly I guess
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): depends on what you're trying to do Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): read an article in NYC lately that said we need to be able to forget things like facts or our brains slow down
Zen (zen.arado): so why should I retain facts
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes... circulation, illumination, movement, flow... animation....
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): not elimination imo
Zen (zen.arado): my knowledge of how poer stations work is useless to me now
Zen (zen.arado): power
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): never know, Zen :)
Ari (arisia.vita): useless?
Storm Nordwind: One myth of Odin is apposite. In his quest for knowledge, he needed to drink from a well of so-called wisdom. But to do that he had to sacrifice an eye. Most commentaries stop there. But think... you lose an eye and you lose your sense of perspective, and that is what leaves knowledge mean knowledge.
Zen (zen.arado): but learning how to use facts or learning how to learn is useful
Storm Nordwind: *mean -> mere
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): interesting, Storm!
Zen (zen.arado): I guess we do make a sacrifice to acquire knowledge
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): then maybe you only turn left, hah... stuck in a loop
Zen (zen.arado): but that's how e are I guess
Zen (zen.arado): I just bought a book about science

Exercise:

Candybabe Felisimo: what I want to learn is how to keep myquest for knowledge AND be physical at the same time... I ned to get more fit
Candybabe Felisimo: any suggestions?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)) I have that desire too Candy
Ari (arisia.vita): me too
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): nods :)
Storm Nordwind: They are definitely not mutually exclusive :)
Candybabe Felisimo: I am constantly having my nose in the books
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I have lots of suggestions but none of which I'm actually doing so that makes me hesitant to share
Zen (zen.arado): no chance for me
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles
Candybabe Felisimo: well please do share
Candybabe Felisimo: ; )
Storm Nordwind: Routine. Habit. Doing it socially. Just taking a stroll at sunrise. All help.
Candybabe Felisimo: hmm
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well for instance I have a *wonderful* 86 yo yoga instructor that I could be spending time with today but I am here :)
Zen (zen.arado): oh I watched a young woman lifet twice her body weight last night on TV...an Olympics athlete
Zen (zen.arado): 58 kilos and she lifted 116
Ari (arisia.vita): let both your mind and body dance, the one with the joy of learning, the other with the joy of moving....
Candybabe Felisimo: it is this that I need... yet my books and studies are at home...
Zen (zen.arado): yeh..I can only try to be actiive
Zen (zen.arado): too much at computer is modern problem
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): maybe different input devices, headtracker while being on a crosstrainer/spinningbike and reading from a screen
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): finding someone to be active with seems a key for many I know who have managed... or linking it with something 'else' they are already driven to do
Candybabe Felisimo: nods
Zen (zen.arado): make time for outdoors
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Ari (arisia.vita): good idea Yak
Zen (zen.arado): ideas on this aren't scarce
Zen (zen.arado): it's actually doing it that's hard :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): a friend I know would spend two hours walking at night while talking to her boyfriend on the phone... she wore weights and got into shape but hardly noticed, she said
Candybabe Felisimo: well the heat makes it so uncomfortable, but making the time seems to be the answer
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): he may have been an inspiration at the same time :)
Candybabe Felisimo: excellent idea
Zen (zen.arado): just walking seems natural to me
Storm Nordwind: Yes Candy! It's easier in Europe I found. The temperatures are so extreme here, being outdoors is harder here than there
Second Life: Jeff Hema is online.
Zen (zen.arado): too hot or too cold
Candybabe Felisimo: yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): setting up the routine seems the most important thing - hard at first and then if something throws you off.. whew....
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): having a dog you have to walk is good
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Candybabe Felisimo: that is good
Zen (zen.arado): harder to walk for no reason
Ari (arisia.vita): ok, you all have inspired me to get out and take care of some chores....
Storm Nordwind: Sure. But if the routine breaks, you're not a failure, so no need to beat yourself up about it. You adapt it, try again, keep going, and - most of all - find something to enjoy in it!
Ari (arisia.vita): be well and happy
Zen (zen.arado): yep
Ari (arisia.vita): hope to see you all again soon
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): bye ari, everyone
Storm Nordwind: /me waves
Candybabe Felisimo: take care Ari
Zen (zen.arado): TY for coming Ari
Ari (arisia.vita): it was great being with you all
Zen (zen.arado): and Yaku
Candybabe Felisimo: thank you for bringing me here
Zen (zen.arado): nice to met you Candy
Storm Nordwind: Great to see you!
Zen (zen.arado): thanks to all for coming
Zen (zen.arado): byee for now
Storm Nordwind: Bye Zen.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Ari, ty, thanks Zen, Storm, Candy
Candybabe Felisimo: thakn you for allowing me to come
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): please join us again Candy
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): we're here every 6 hrs
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :))
Candybabe Felisimo: thank you
Candybabe Felisimo: although I am not sure how
Candybabe Felisimo: ok... I am here inthe AM usually
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Oh... did you make a pavilion landmark?
Candybabe Felisimo: no
Candybabe Felisimo: I was unable
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): kk.. we have sessions each day at 7am (1,7,1,7)
Storm Nordwind: We can walk back there if you wish
Candybabe Felisimo: SLT?
Candybabe Felisimo: ok
Zen (zen.arado): should be on notecard I gave her
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): K, let me give you that, and yes
Candybabe Felisimo: I would like that
Storm Nordwind: OK thanks!
Zen (zen.arado): did you get it Candy?
Storm Nordwind: Bye the way Eliza, I took down the folding noticeboards at La Sakura, and removed the opening gifts from the main signboard
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): aww
Storm Nordwind: Just in case i forget to tell you
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but are the gifts still there?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I noticed many didn't click so I've been asking people to make sure to do so when going back to visit
Candybabe Felisimo: I did Zen
Candybabe Felisimo: thanks
Zen (zen.arado): kk good
Storm Nordwind: Hmm... I can replace them Eliza :)
Candybabe Felisimo: somehow I received an old message I made myself haahah
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) thanks... I told a group of people yesterday....
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles Candy
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or we can put them in a different spot... hm
Storm Nordwind: But I'll rename the gift folder it gives :)
Candybabe Felisimo: I iwll walk around and figure out where I am
Candybabe Felisimo: ; )
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but I did say note board, OK :)) thanks Storm
Zen (zen.arado): byee