2012.07.19 07:00 - Also Ran

The Guardian for this long meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Fellow artist.

Storm Nordwind: Good morning Eliza and Sophia!
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Storm, hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello!
Eliza Madrigal: we were wandering La Sakura this morning
Eliza Madrigal: catching up
Storm Nordwind smiles
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is such a lovely build!!
SophiaSharon Larnia: I cant wait to see more
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Thank you - the praise of a fellow artist is greatly appreciated :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: feelow artist, are you refering to me?
SophiaSharon Larnia: not i :)
Eliza Madrigal: ppfftt
Storm Nordwind: Pah!
Eliza Madrigal: :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: how does that go, I dont know anything about art, but i know what i like
Eliza Madrigal: you have such a delicate touch... have missed your projects
Eliza Madrigal: brb, freshening coffee
SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Riddle
Riddle Sideways: Hi All
Storm Nordwind: Good morning Riddle!
Storm Nordwind: Hi Bleu!
Riddle Sideways: Hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bleu

Listening for the theme.

SophiaSharon Larnia is listening intently for the theme of this session
Riddle Sideways: yes, was also
Storm Nordwind has not set a theme, so is happy if someone else wishes to do so, or to default back to the theme of the week
SophiaSharon Larnia: Eliza stepped away for a cup of coffee :)
Eliza Madrigal: back :) had to find where I set my coffee cup first
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I've actually enjoyed the directions some sessions have gone in re listening and dealing with anger, cultivating awareness

Next theme session.

Eliza Madrigal: tonight is the next theme session too
Eliza Madrigal: to form a "hypothesis" as Bleu has suggested
Bleu Oleander: sorry I won't be able to make tonight :(
Eliza Madrigal: oh :/
Bleu Oleander: evenings are hard for me
Eliza Madrigal nods... but we have your question to work with I guess
Bleu Oleander: will enjoy reading the log
Bleu Oleander: I work most nights so will try to attend when I can re: Mon and Thurs sessions
SophiaSharon Larnia: bah im on 6 minutes left of my laptop battery
SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
Eliza Madrigal: aw
Eliza Madrigal: k :)
Storm Nordwind: OK!

Keeping the data together

Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking that we should set up something on the wiki for discussions for those who can't attend the night sessions
Bleu Oleander: yes, nice idea
Eliza Madrigal: along the lines of the time session reports
Eliza Madrigal: ?
Riddle Sideways: few use the comments section as the 99 days' project does
Bleu Oleander: maybe just comments under the logs?
Storm Nordwind: People rarely read the comments under the logs, I've found
Bleu Oleander: that's true
Riddle Sideways: not sure how to measure that
Eliza Madrigal: that's the question... what would be easiest and also most systematic with regad to keeping the 'data' together
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: what would be most inclusive
Riddle Sideways: probably a ture wiki, where ppl actually edit the main doc
Riddle Sideways: but, we are too use to the main text being timed and sacred
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Being intimidated.

SophiaSharon Larnia: I actually find the recorder intimidating still
--BELL--
SophiaSharon Larnia: every time I come here
Riddle Sideways: don't mind this recorder as much as others
Riddle Sideways: voice recorders are evil
Eliza Madrigal: the recorder is a reminder to be aware, for me
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i suppose i agree they are worse
Bleu Oleander: in keeping with the theme of "listening"
SophiaSharon Larnia: and yes, the recorder is for a sure a reminder to be aware as well, Eliza
Riddle Sideways: listenning to the voice that others hear
SophiaSharon Larnia: (for me)
Storm Nordwind barely notices the recorder, except for having to claim the log once a week :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Bleu Oleander: I don't notice it much either
Eliza Madrigal: well one interesting question, which I guess is a variation on 'what are we guarding' is, what are we trying to catch?
SophiaSharon Larnia: i cant tell you how many times i wanted to say something, and at the last minute just delete everything
Riddle Sideways: :) yep
Bleu Oleander: what are we trying to catch ... interesting question
Riddle Sideways: then sometimes just hit return
SophiaSharon Larnia: heh yep
Riddle Sideways: trying to catch your brilliance
Bleu Oleander: like folks who snap so many pics of an event with their phones
Riddle Sideways: sharing you later
Bleu Oleander: too busy taking pics to enjoy the moment :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Storm Nordwind: It's a different kind of enjoyment
Eliza Madrigal: :) I saw a video of a man watching a video he made of himself at around 12... talking to himself as a grown man...
Bleu Oleander: tradeoff then maybe?
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh wow Eliza, thats something
Bleu Oleander: what is it about technology that makes us want to preserve every experience we have?
Riddle Sideways: a boxy puppy enters
Storm Nordwind: It was a little odd, I remember
Eliza Madrigal: was interesting but yes odd too
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Boxy
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy
Bleu Oleander: hey boxy
Eliza Madrigal: time does squidgy things to us
Eliza Madrigal: :D
Eliza Madrigal: lol
SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
Storm Nordwind: We always have Bleu, from the times we were scribing in waxen tablets
Bleu Oleander: yes
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Riddle Sideways: am musing on the TV mindset many have... how watching even live events thru the phones camera

Invisible people.

Storm Nordwind: To preserve. To share. To help others. Lots of reasons
Alfred Kelberry: oh, kitty! good to see you :)
Riddle Sideways: might be the same
SophiaSharon Larnia: you too Boxy
Storm Nordwind: Beware Sphia, the boxy is armed now!
Alfred Kelberry: ...
SophiaSharon Larnia: i see! i was just zooming on it
Eliza Madrigal nods Storm... I do know that with the recorder on, I'm reminded of 'invisible people' sitting with us... hypothetical people
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods @ Eliza
Bleu Oleander: all good reasons, although sometimes it's nice just to experience and only log into your own memory
SophiaSharon Larnia: all those grad students
Alfred Kelberry: big storm is watching :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: and yes, lots of grad students :))

Drama.

Storm Nordwind: There are also those who like to say "LOOK AT ME!!!" ;)
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Eliza Madrigal: strangely though, PaB over time, doesn't seem to draw much drama for the sake of drama... does it?
Eliza Madrigal: even though 'on stage'
SophiaSharon Larnia: (or my actual real fear, judgemental people, or *gasp* my mom)
Eliza Madrigal smiles Sophia
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yeah... I have the mom fear too
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Storm Nordwind: Drama seekers try and go elsewhere. Poof!
SophiaSharon Larnia: i mean, its not so hard to figure out who I am, if you look
Eliza Madrigal: Hi oO0Oo, dramatic entrance :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: oof Sam, nice to see you
Bleu Oleander: hi Sam :)
Riddle Sideways: Hi oO
oO0Oo Resident: Hi.. forgot where I was when logging out. Sorry to be late.
Eliza Madrigal: in the last few weeks, I met a RL person who was really familiar with SL and have been talking to them a lot... but it was odd to be exchanging avie names when in RL 'first' :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles

Who are you, and what does that mean?

Alfred Kelberry: sophia, who are you? :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: im not quite sure i have an answer for that
Storm Nordwind: I'm never sure what people mean when they ask? WHo are you?"
Bleu Oleander: does anyone really know the answer to that?
Alfred Kelberry: sophia: i think you're a cute kitty and a talented builder :)
Eliza Madrigal: oo oo oo oo (tune pops up)
SophiaSharon Larnia: aww thanks Boxy, ill take that!!
Alfred Kelberry: ;)
Riddle Sideways: 2 tunes actually
oO0Oo Resident: yes, SSL is "Neko Girl".. but seriously... that is the impetus behind repetitive labeling isn't it? To avoid that very question?
Riddle Sideways: yes
SophiaSharon Larnia is not neko girl but doesnt want to get into
SophiaSharon Larnia: it
Bleu Oleander: or to attempt to answer it :)
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: can not help but notice - storm has a new shirt! :)
Storm Nordwind: It's not really a question, Sam. It's too vague. The asker themselves often doesn't know what they really mean by it! And they would often be better off asking a different question. :)
Eliza Madrigal: a chance to hear the 'who' inside
Eliza Madrigal: whoville... :) hah... mommie connections
Storm Nordwind: !?
SophiaSharon Larnia heard an owl
Alfred Kelberry: yes, it requires context to answer properly
Eliza Madrigal: :) Seuss, Storm.... still small voice
Storm Nordwind: Ah. Americana
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: yet i think it's very much in tune with usual pab questions :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: and Sam, I just trying to understand, i think if i label something, including myself, i can fit it in a box marked "figured out" and dont have to think of it again
oO0Oo Resident: "usual PaB questions" raises an eyebrow
Riddle Sideways: yep, one of the beginning PaB questions. Who are you? without listing what you Have

Naughty Flash.

Alfred Kelberry: btw, update to firefox 15 when it's out. it will solve a lot of memory leaks caused by extensions.
SophiaSharon Larnia: um, ok
Riddle Sideways: btw, last FF update and latest Flash 11 update do not work
Alfred Kelberry: sam: yes, like "what else is true", etc
SophiaSharon Larnia: labels = solid
oO0Oo Resident: I may have missed the training
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love for even one thing to stay in a "figured out" box...
Riddle Sideways: yes, that is the problem with labels
Storm Nordwind smiles at Sam's great answer :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

Changing labels.

Alfred Kelberry: oh, i was going to change my nick "label". you reminded me :)
Alfred Kelberry: see how it changes perception
Storm Nordwind awaits further developments
Alfred Kelberry: ok, done. carry on :)
Riddle Sideways: perceiving a mighty pirate
Alfred Kelberry: riddle: you still combating naughty flash? :)
Riddle Sideways: news flash... Flash fixed on 2
Riddle Sideways: can changing your own label work?
Alfred Kelberry: flash 11.3 + ff 13.1 here work well
Eliza Madrigal: there may be a time delay before others see it... am just now seeing boxy's for instance
Riddle Sideways: most others already have your old labels
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: I don't see it yet except in the log
Alfred Kelberry: riddle: yes, will take time to update the cache
Riddle Sideways: Hi Korel.
Bleu Oleander: hi Korel :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Korel
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori
Riddle Sideways: So, you announce that Boxy is gone and Mighty Pirate is now your label
Alfred Kelberry: you do :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh em gee
Eliza Madrigal: and that will now sit along side lots of other labels and images snapped in time... some of us still seeing scarf and glasses wearing avie but some meeting just boxy puppy pirate
Riddle Sideways: ok, puts the boxy label into a box and up on a tall shief
Storm Nordwind: "mighty" is of course a little bit of self-reassurance, in case anyone should mistake him for a less-than-mighty pirate. ;)
Alfred Kelberry: btw, how to say cool despite unfortunate incidents: http://i.imgur.com/L86zM.gif :)
Bleu Oleander: mighty puppy
Riddle Sideways: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia has a way to go before she can relax those old thought walls

An experiment.

Eliza Madrigal: the person I mentioned before said that after coming into SL she conducted a RL experiment in her family, stepping out of the role she'd been in, or 'responsible one' for a week
SophiaSharon Larnia: and?
Storm Nordwind: Oh? And what happened?
Eliza Madrigal: and watched the way her own changes sort of shifted the household (she was one of three sisters and a brother)
Eliza Madrigal: well in her case, the sisters were grumpy with her because it made no sense to them...
Eliza Madrigal: but after a bit they all talked about it... and each of them was able to say what they saw
Eliza Madrigal: about their roles in the house
Eliza Madrigal: she actually liked being the 'responsible one' and looking out for everyone, but wanted to pause that sometimes too
Korel Laloix: I get to feeling like that sometimes as well.
Riddle Sideways: roles/labels... listening to the stickiness and the needs to have
Riddle Sideways: yet, harnessed
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, so she has set a new expectation of self? i imagine her sisters are more grateful and aware of her role now
oO0Oo Resident: not sure I understand Riddle.. can you say that in another way please?
Eliza Madrigal: that is what it did... amplified what was already going on
Eliza Madrigal: allowed it to be questioned
Bleu Oleander: must slip out ... take care everyone :)
Alfred Kelberry: sam, it was a riddle :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu :)
Alfred Kelberry: bye, artsy goddess
oO0Oo Resident: Bye Bleu
Storm Nordwind waves
Riddle Sideways: :) thanks, sometimes can't figure out the riddles either
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Alfred Kelberry: kori, did you sign up for the summer school?
--BELL--
SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive got to go myself, bye for now
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Sophia
Eliza Madrigal: so nice to see you Sophia, bye for now
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) nice to see you all :)))
Eliza Madrigal: Bye too, Riddle
Eliza Madrigal: (hope you'll try to make the party)
Riddle Sideways: so nice to see ya'll. Bye for now
Storm Nordwind waves
Riddle Sideways: what time is party again?
Eliza Madrigal: 8am SLT
Eliza Madrigal: Saturday
Riddle Sideways: k
Storm Nordwind: Saturday morning
Riddle Sideways: will try
Eliza Madrigal: I think to say that in the case of this girls' family, they were very close and communicative
Storm Nordwind nods
Eliza Madrigal: in other situations it might have more fall out, and that really shows how difficult it can be to 'change' in the eyes of others
Eliza Madrigal: or step into fully, a change that has taken place
Alfred Kelberry: any change will meet an opposition
Eliza Madrigal: think so?
Alfred Kelberry: yes
Korel Laloix: I start Monday.
Alfred Kelberry: even for the "good", which may be "bad" for others :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm okay with you being a mighty pirate :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)

Changing people's perceptions

Storm Nordwind: I suspect changing people's perceptions of you (or attempting to do so) is only sometimes beneficial to yourself.
Korel Laloix: It is very benificial.
Storm Nordwind: Sometimes
Korel Laloix: I have done it a few times.
Storm Nordwind: Actually most people don't really care most of the time, and it's only in certain situations - like a career or a family - that it matters
Korel Laloix: Both when accidental or intentional.
Eliza Madrigal: (stuck typing have not been doing so)
Alfred Kelberry: storm, which constitutes most of our life :)
Eliza Madrigal: well like in a household... there is a lot of interdependence going on that is normally invisible...
Eliza Madrigal: if she wanted to say, do less in the house and go back to school, she would need everyone to support that
Korel Laloix: I think most of the big changes we make in our lives are positive.
Eliza Madrigal: (reversed lines)
Alfred Kelberry: one simple experiment to conduct is start wearing a suit to work if you generally wear jeans and tshirts
Eliza Madrigal: maybe they build courage korel?
Alfred Kelberry: you will note the difference in perception
Korel Laloix: COuld be.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, I have done that... worn a jacket and glasses about to see the difference in treatment
Storm Nordwind: Yes. She found those important. And the other people involved found her (and the changes) important. But individually we're not that important to most other people.
Korel Laloix: When I dress down at the office, pleople do notice for sure.
Korel Laloix: WE can be.
Eliza Madrigal: I have met with the opposite results... thinking I could make what seemed small changes
Eliza Madrigal: and finding all out revolt
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Korel Laloix: I found that when I really stopped being sexually hyperactive.... I thought it was a small adjustment really... some of my freinds were very angry.
Eliza Madrigal: angry... strange response

Living on different planets.

Storm Nordwind: I'm reminded of Mrs. Storm's favorite TV channel HGTV, where people are looking for houses. So often they say, "I'm worried that the neighbors can see it", whereas actually the neighbors will have as much interest in you as you in them, viz. very little indeed!
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps caused them to question their own behaviors
Eliza Madrigal: :) Storm.... we live in different planets... laughs....
Eliza Madrigal: if I leave a trash can out for a day... there is a notice "we see you"
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Storm Nordwind: What an odd place that is!
Korel Laloix: OK... back to bed..
Eliza Madrigal: Night Kori :)
Korel Laloix: Take care all.
Storm Nordwind waves
Korel Laloix: Nap time.. not feeling well today.
Eliza Madrigal: aw
Eliza Madrigal: was wondering why napping during the dau
Eliza Madrigal: y

Talking about gods.

Alfred Kelberry: storm, so... let's talk about your illusive god? :)
Storm Nordwind: Which one?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: you asked me that already
Storm Nordwind: And the answer is?
Alfred Kelberry: try to recall :)
Storm Nordwind: Try to tell me again
Alfred Kelberry: this is the topic on listening after all :)
Storm Nordwind: listening and memory are independent
Alfred Kelberry: ok, you stopped on buddha
Storm Nordwind: As, it seems, is courtesy :)
Alfred Kelberry: current god of choice
Storm Nordwind: buddhas are not gods
Eliza Madrigal: god is a role
Alfred Kelberry: ok, i see you're not in the mood to discuss it today :)
Alfred Kelberry: maybe later
Storm Nordwind: I'm fine. Carry on
Eliza Madrigal: yes please... lingering to listen...

Talking to a cashier.

Alfred Kelberry: well, the premise is your words that you can talk to god. i'm interested in how the communication happens?
Storm Nordwind: You can talk to gods in the same way as you can talk to other beings. They may or may not understand you. And they may or may not want to listen. Or reply in a way you can understand.
Alfred Kelberry: ok, can you give one example of such a communication?
Storm Nordwind: Sure....
Alfred Kelberry: my assumption is that it's your... inner voice or... self that you talk to, correct?
Storm Nordwind: no
Alfred Kelberry: that you attribute a role of "god"
Alfred Kelberry: ok
Storm Nordwind: not sure why you would assume that
Alfred Kelberry: ok, tell me how it works
Storm Nordwind: Let me give you a a parallel case first...
Storm Nordwind: Supposing I'm in a supermarket...
Storm Nordwind: and I'm talking to the cashier at the checkout...
Storm Nordwind: I hear their voice...
Storm Nordwind: but actualli I don't hear it "out there"...
Storm Nordwind: I hear it is in my head...
Storm Nordwind: just as all perceptions...
Storm Nordwind: but the cause of that perception s an external one
Storm Nordwind: This is the same with talking with gods.
Storm Nordwind: The cause is not in me but the perception is
Alfred Kelberry: so you hear voices in your head while there no viable external sources around?
Storm Nordwind: no
Alfred Kelberry: how do you receive the message?
Alfred Kelberry: you said it works in the same way
Storm Nordwind: Same as I do when the cashier talks. It ends up interpreted as a voice like perception
Alfred Kelberry: e.g. voice in your head?
Storm Nordwind: perception. Conversationalize it as you will
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Storm Nordwind: Of course, you have to learn how to distinguish between perceptions - in the same way a young child has to do so when learning to interact with the world
Alfred Kelberry: ok, it's something one can believe, but not comprehend :)
Alfred Kelberry: i got it
Storm Nordwind: I don't understand your meaning
--BELL--

Not understanding.

Alfred Kelberry: this is similar argumentation astrologists use. you don't have the sacred power to understand the intricate connection between stars and your lives :)
Storm Nordwind: I don't see the parallel
Alfred Kelberry: "i can't explain how it works, but this is true" :)
Storm Nordwind: Tell me how gravity works then
Alfred Kelberry: i suspect you're in denial :)
Alfred Kelberry: do you believe in astrology?
Storm Nordwind: Suspecting one thing or the other doesn't affect me, nor any that I help. How does it help you?
Storm Nordwind: Astrology? Not particularly.
Alfred Kelberry: so, you would not like your beliefs to be somehow related to it?
Storm Nordwind: I only have empirical beliefs, things that work pragmatically. I don't have any experience that astrology has any empirical use for me.
Alfred Kelberry: is it possible to explain pragmatically how communication with god occurs? or "perception" is the closest one can get?
Storm Nordwind: Possibly it is. But maybe I'm not the best person to do it. I'm more of a pragmatist than a theorist. The best way would be for someone with your kind of mind to try it themselves, over a period of many years, and analyse it. No doubt many people would benefit from that study.

Many gods.

Storm Nordwind: By the way, you do keep saying communication with "god" - singular. There is no single god in my experience, but very many. So I use the term gods :)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, i recall you mentioned many gods that you have talked to during your life and that now you prefer talking to buddha
Storm Nordwind: No.
Storm Nordwind: To buddhas
Storm Nordwind: There are many buddhas too!
Alfred Kelberry: ok, buddhas :)

Differing perceptions.

Alfred Kelberry: a question...
Alfred Kelberry: is this "perception" method different for various gods? or only the message is?
Eliza Madrigal: (brb)
Storm Nordwind: The perception is quite different. If I go to a party and meet lots of people, I will have differing perceptions of each person there. It is the same with gods (and goddesses). They present to you in ways as individual as the people you meet at that party.
--BELL--

An example for Alfred.

Alfred Kelberry: ok, you promised an example :)
Alfred Kelberry: preferably with a goddess :)
Storm Nordwind: haha!
Storm Nordwind: Any goddess in particular being your favorite?
Alfred Kelberry: er... i don't know many... shiva, venus... :)
Storm Nordwind: Shiva is a god, and Venus... well I've not interacted with her personally, though I know someone who has. But I'll give you an example, yes...
Alfred Kelberry: any goddess really. i'd like to hear an example where a god/goddess was practically helpful to you in some way.
Storm Nordwind: OK. Here we go...
Storm Nordwind: And I remember this one, not because it's unusual, but because I used to relate it in a presentation I used to give in a workshop class...
Alfred Kelberry: oh, cool
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind: So the year is 1998 or 1999 (I forget which!)
Storm Nordwind: And I'm living in the west of England (with my now ex)...
Storm Nordwind: And I get a new job in London
Alfred Kelberry: congrats!
Storm Nordwind: I've had lots and lots of jobs in my career ;)
Storm Nordwind: But I have to find a place for us to live in or around London
Storm Nordwind: And tempoarily we're living in a terrible place.
Storm Nordwind: At that time, I'm not Buddhist
Storm Nordwind: I'm Heathen (Norse Germanic pagan)
Storm Nordwind: And I've had experience before of a particular god Frey helping me at times like this.
Storm Nordwind: So my ex and I decide to go to the seashore and perform a ritual for Frey and ask his assistance.
Storm Nordwind: But the ritual is kind of "meh"
Storm Nordwind: There's no real response either of us get from Frey

Also Ran.

Storm Nordwind: But...
Storm Nordwind: after the ritual is closed...
Storm Nordwind: both of us perceive the same thing...
Storm Nordwind: coming across the sea is a goddess form, dressed in red and black.
Storm Nordwind: I've never seen her before
Storm Nordwind: but my ex has
Alfred Kelberry: a visual image?
Storm Nordwind: It turns out to be the Norse goddess Ran
Storm Nordwind: Yes, a visual image as solid as the person next to me
Storm Nordwind: But walking in a way the person next to me does not tend to do, even after a few beers!

An encounter in a London street.

Storm Nordwind: A couple of days later, I'm working in Hammersmith (part of London)
Storm Nordwind: And it's lunchtime and I go to get a sandwich from the town - walking
Storm Nordwind: And suddenly Ran appears in front me, in a London street - which was kind of unusual to say the least!
Storm Nordwind: So I greet her and ask her what she wants
Alfred Kelberry: what?!
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Storm Nordwind: She says she will help us find a place to live.
Storm Nordwind: I say OK, but what does she want in return?

An interruption.

Alfred Kelberry: you mean you come up to an imaginary person and talk to?
Storm Nordwind: Shutup Alfred and cease your mocking tone, or the story is over now
Storm Nordwind: Do you agree to do that Alfred?
Alfred Kelberry: ok, carry on :)

The story concludes.

Storm Nordwind: To resume...
Storm Nordwind: I say OK, but what does she want in return?
Storm Nordwind: She says, all she wants in a ritual performed specifically for her.
Storm Nordwind: So I agree. The upside is too high not to!
Storm Nordwind: Two days later we make a long journey to the sea again. I have some mead as an offering, and we perform a ritual just for her.
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Two days later we have the perfect place to live, appearing to us out of nowhere despite the extensive previous searching, and we have money securing it.
Storm Nordwind: We came through, and she came through.
Storm Nordwind: And we had a statue of her carved as a kind of memory too - but that's another story :)
Storm Nordwind: There done

Reactions.

Alfred Kelberry: wow...
Eliza Madrigal: ty Storm
Storm Nordwind: You're welcome Eliza
Alfred Kelberry: thank you for sharing
Storm Nordwind: Quite a common story for me
Alfred Kelberry: excuse my reaction, it may be a common encounter for you, but this is heavy duty for me :)
Storm Nordwind: Sure
Storm Nordwind: But you ask, and I had the time, so you got a simple illustration
Alfred Kelberry: why didn't you tell me that communication can be in a form of a visual image?
Alfred Kelberry: it's much easier to relate to than "perception"
Eliza Madrigal: now he has :)
Storm Nordwind: I didn't want to intrude on your mind to find out :)
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i find such secret attitude common among spiritual practitioners. complicating something that can be explained simply.
Storm Nordwind: We are rather used to mockery, so we keep it to ourselves usually
Storm Nordwind: Remember boxy the name of my first PaB blog?

It's not recalled or mentioned, but it was "Words of a Seer". Perhaps the words "Seer" can explain a lot!

Eliza Madrigal: there are terms like 'self-secret' Boxy to describe something that, if someone is open about, they'll hear...
Eliza Madrigal: but I find it really inspiring to hear others' experiences
Eliza Madrigal: they are infinitely personal
Storm Nordwind: Few people outside those workshops have heard that particular story before. :)
Alfred Kelberry: well, visual image is one thing... but actually talking to a god on the street at day light?! it goes beyond "perception" :)
Storm Nordwind: Yes I was rather surprised when Ran chose to show up like that!
Eliza Madrigal: it doesn't seem so novel to me... perhaps growing up in Miami where people pray to saints of various causes....
Eliza Madrigal: but perhaps most people DO keep their very personal ways of relating close to vest, in a kind of soft guarding way
Storm Nordwind nods to Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: tending, cherishing
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, the u.s. is very big on that
Storm Nordwind: It takes a lot of tending before one has a level of confidence in it Eliza
Storm Nordwind: decades often
Eliza Madrigal: I relate to much of what Storm described, but in my own way
Eliza Madrigal: that's the thing, the more time the more unique

Simulacra.

Alfred Kelberry: i've read many stories how people see outline of god in a potato or a cloud or whatnot and take it as a revelation of some kind
Eliza Madrigal: some schools call that seeing your own mind, Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: i think it's the power of faith. it goes beyond reason.
Storm Nordwind: haha! Yes. And isolated incidents may be wishful thinking, I don't know. Isn't that called simulacra or something?
Eliza Madrigal: but what do we know about mind... very little... what of shared mind, collective unconscious, etc
Alfred Kelberry: i try to follow occam's razor on this :)
Storm Nordwind: me too

Shared experience.

Eliza Madrigal: I think it is beautiful to have the kind of shared experience Storm describes with someone... that seems rare... shared imagination - part of what I think many work with in SL
Storm Nordwind: :)
Eliza Madrigal: or try to - various textures and kinds of dreamings.. spectrum
Eliza Madrigal: all with an underlying 'no more dreaming' or 'awake' context
Eliza Madrigal: that's what buddha means - awake
Storm Nordwind: It may be hard to manufacture, but with openness to possibility (epoche!) it can happen unbidden.
Eliza Madrigal: viva la epoche!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Yay n stuff ;)
Eliza Madrigal laughs

Helping others.

Alfred Kelberry: it's good if it helps people. or if they think it helps them. there is however a threat of losing touch with reality. if person is prone to influence and lack in reasoning.
Storm Nordwind: It's part of reality. And if it helps others, it's also part of my motivation.
Eliza Madrigal: I think there is a good point there Boxy... one thing I do like about buddhism in particular is that there is a rigor and a questioning both personal and peer...
Eliza Madrigal: whereas as a christian I didn't feel allowed that
Storm Nordwind: Yes Eliza. That rigor was the case also the polytheist reconstructionalists that I associated with
Eliza Madrigal: but I know christians who follow their hearts too of course... and are allowed wide ranges of intellect
Eliza Madrigal: literalism may be the true danger, moreso than any 'religion'... and that would include re science too, wouldn't it... not leaving 'room'
Eliza Madrigal: being so sure that there is no curiosity left

The danger of misrepresenting what science is.

Alfred Kelberry: eliza, how science can be of danger?
Storm Nordwind: It's possible to combine openness with discrimination. And this relates to the scientific method when properly applied. I've always done similar
Eliza Madrigal: if someone takes science as 'something' ... like "science says..."
Eliza Madrigal: rather than a living breathing evolving multi fasceted collective discovery process
Storm Nordwind: But that's just sloppy thinking reinforced by news media ;)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Storm Nordwind: They have to sell their newspapers
Storm Nordwind: They're not paid for anything else
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i think most people in academia take it as an evolving creature

Doubt.

Eliza Madrigal: deep practitioners often have more doubt than anyone else too...
Eliza Madrigal: lol, but it is an open doubt
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i find they have deep doubt in science and strong belief in their practice :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is a matter of communication boxy and capacity to be with paradoxes
Storm Nordwind: I do doubt sometimes that I'll have the ability or clarity to maintain these kinds of 'communications'. A kind of self-confidence crisis.But then it always works the next time. So who am I to judge? :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

What is worship?

Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i'm for studying paradoxes, not worshiping them. this is the distinction.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, but what is worship... it comes down to questions like this...
Eliza Madrigal: faith, for instance has many meanings
Eliza Madrigal: and for one it may mean 'i'm right and you are wrong'
Eliza Madrigal: but for most it would not
Storm Nordwind: With gods, it's a case of negotiation rather than worship (unless that was part of their side of the deal!).
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, worship in a common sense. as peopel do in spiritual practices.
Eliza Madrigal: Boxy... when you are reasoning, do you see patterns sometimes that others may not see in the same way?
Alfred Kelberry: it's possible to redefine any term to suit one's argumentation, but i think it's not a productive approach
Eliza Madrigal: agree... it is also possible to reduce someone to what one's own idea may be rather than leaving it uncomfortably open, but not a productive approach
Eliza Madrigal: someone's experience I mean
Eliza Madrigal: I see most spiritual practices as technologies
Alfred Kelberry: i do too, i think
Alfred Kelberry: i see what practical gain there is. how it can be applicable in rl.
Storm Nordwind: I applaud that
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and I see what storm described as real life :)
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: well, in his local scope :)
Storm Nordwind: The local scope of several people

Keeping a skeptical mind.

Alfred Kelberry: it's really difficult to justify such an encounter :)
Storm Nordwind: No need to justify
Eliza Madrigal: room for as many as have ever existed... at some level it may come back to the time mystery :)
Eliza Madrigal: anyway, wow long session... and to think when I signed on this morning I intended to just send an IM or two and then be offline the day.... lol...
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Alfred Kelberry: storm: this is as i said above our difference. you take it as is on faith, i don't.
Storm Nordwind: what do i take on faith?
Eliza Madrigal: thanks - have a lovely day and hope to see you both for the theme session tonight
Alfred Kelberry: "No need to justify"
Storm Nordwind: I haven't the time or skill to do it for anyone other than me
Storm Nordwind: So proving (so called) is not an ambition
Storm Nordwind: What's useful is useful.
Storm Nordwind: And what's useful can change as skill - or needs - change
Alfred Kelberry: doesn't buddha say to keep a skeptical mind? :)
Alfred Kelberry: doubt everything?
Storm Nordwind: He says don't accept just 'cos I say it and you respect me. Try it and see if it works. If not discard and revisit some other time. If it works for you, do it
Storm Nordwind: Exactly my pragmatic empircal attitude
Storm Nordwind: perhaps that's what I like most about Buddhism
Storm Nordwind: because it fits my pragmatism
Alfred Kelberry: ok, fair enough

Converting.

Alfred Kelberry: what do you think of people who try to convert non-believers into this kind of thing?
Storm Nordwind: I don't think anything particularly "of" them ;) But it's not a practice I recommend. For one it's usually futile. For another, it's often intrusive.
Storm Nordwind: It also usually is saying "I know what's best for you"

Cultivating.

Alfred Kelberry: do you think to cultivate this... "level of awareness", that you possess, only possible if a person was brought into such environment in childhood?
Alfred Kelberry: i see that many people here have had spiritual practices since the early ages
Storm Nordwind: I don't know. I doubt there's a single best "cause". But perhaps with a different environment I may have started earlier and had more time to help others with it. Who knows? But it was in my 20s, so that's 40 years so far! ;)
Alfred Kelberry: ok, this is my working hypothesis :)
Alfred Kelberry: well, thank you, mr. storm. it was fun and educational :)
Storm Nordwind: You're welcome.
Storm Nordwind: Though I thought you were going to expand your hypothesis :)
--BELL--

Alfred's wish for more examples/

Alfred Kelberry: my wish is to have more of such examples as yours and less of general words here at pab
Alfred Kelberry: i think one learns a lot more from practical examples like this
Storm Nordwind: My suggestion is to generate your own by researching these things yourself as practical exercises
Alfred Kelberry: when you it's perception, or give a detached example of a cashier - i can not relate to that, as i believe most non-practitioners. but this vivid story of encounter with fraya (?) is exemplary!
Alfred Kelberry: did not have any of such revealing accidents yet :)
Storm Nordwind: Ran was the goddess who responded. Frey was the god who didn't
Alfred Kelberry: right

A very old website.

Storm Nordwind: One moment... I'll get an old URL
Storm Nordwind: This is a set of pages on a VERY old website (late 90s) done by my ex. Part of a much bigger site once. http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/godde...ran/index.html
Alfred Kelberry: btw, you story actually reminded me of my dying grandma who passed away a while ago
Alfred Kelberry: ouch, scary looking girl :)
Storm Nordwind: Click the Prose Edda page and she mollifies!
Alfred Kelberry: ah, "robber", that explains it
Storm Nordwind: My ex was a "spiritual scholar". Maybe ;)
Alfred Kelberry: hell, why did you turn to a "robber" goddess? :)
Storm Nordwind: She came to us
Alfred Kelberry: oh... right
Alfred Kelberry: non-invited
Storm Nordwind: We made a deal. She's not a dishonorable entity by reputation, and so it seemed to turn out.
Alfred Kelberry: :)

Alfred's story.

Alfred Kelberry: oh, that grandma story...
Storm Nordwind listens
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: she got cancer and faded in one year. lived a long good life though. well, not long before she died, she started seeing things. people in her room. standing. passing by. talking. once she even accused my aunt of bringing a stranger man in the house. well, my dad and other relatives believed there's something spiritual in it. but as much as i loved her, i could not accept it. most plausible reason for me was irreversible damage in the brain that promoted those images.
Storm Nordwind: or allowed them not to be screen out? Who knows?
Alfred Kelberry: i think faith has a lot to do with such incidents
Storm Nordwind: I think faith has a lot to do with any subsequent intrepretation, and less to do with the incident
Alfred Kelberry: well, in my sense of openness, i do accept a possibility of a supernatural involvement :)
Alfred Kelberry: however, as a "playful" theory :)
Storm Nordwind nods and smiles
Alfred Kelberry: i do try and keep my mind open as you can see :)
Alfred Kelberry: yet i prioritize my speculations
Alfred Kelberry: some put it on a pedestal and worship

Some friendly advice.

Storm Nordwind: May I suggest it will help if you stem your expressions of sarcasm and mockery. A lot of people will react poorly to those, and -pragmatically - you will not get the information you seek.
Storm Nordwind: if you feel openness, please show openness
Storm Nordwind: There is nothing wrong with a skeptical mind, but wearing it on your sleeve like an evangelist will encourage a similar reaction that people give to evangelists! :)
Storm Nordwind: Of course that's just my humble suggestion. Your mileage may vary! :)
Alfred Kelberry: i agree on the argument. it is an art however to keep a rational discussion of a critical matter without defensive stance :)
Storm Nordwind: Very true. It is indeed an art. One I've tried to develop, but I undoubtedly fall short
Alfred Kelberry: i do thank you for the advice though
Storm Nordwind: I would only suggest that to a friend :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh my... i feel fray is about to show up :)
Storm Nordwind smiles
Alfred Kelberry: well, it was a pleasant discussion
Storm Nordwind: As always my friend :)
Alfred Kelberry: time to go
Alfred Kelberry: be well, mr storm :)
Storm Nordwind: eat/sleep well :)