2012.07.20 07:00 - A practice ground

With Eliza, Zen, Alpha, San and Boxy....The Guardian for this meeting was Lucinda Lavender. The comments are by Lucinda Lavender.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Luci
--BELL--

Lucinda Lavender: Welcome Eliza...
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: huge rain coming down in my world
Eliza Madrigal: sounds nice
Lucinda Lavender: it is...and qute unusual vor here
Eliza Madrigal: do you mean that hard rains are unusual?
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Eliza Madrigal: :) Here it is particularly bright, after days of rains and mugginess
Lucinda Lavender: I counted to 18 slowly while waiting for the word yes to appear
Eliza Madrigal: lag was awful yesterday... wonder if there might be an issue
Eliza Madrigal: although today my lines feel to be flowing okay
Eliza Madrigal: -today ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: hah, oops actually +today
Lucinda Lavender: do you think it would help for me to remove the scarf I am wearing that has many color available to it?
Eliza Madrigal: I wanted to say thanks again for your "listening" email
Eliza Madrigal: the scarf is probably okay... maybe the connection/reception is affected by the rains
Lucinda Lavender: after the weekend and listening to the monday morning 7 am I felt inspired
Lucinda Lavender: things seemed to come together
Eliza Madrigal: and you had a perfect practice ground ... car trip with relatives :)
Lucinda Lavender: back
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that will help
Lucinda Lavender: has the theme of listening seemed to dissipate?
Eliza Madrigal: it has overlapped with the the science and pab themes. I don't think it has dissipated, so much as there are quite a few angles...
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Alfred has asked people what their strategies for dealing with anger are, for instance. That's been interesting
Lucinda Lavender: I have wanted to listen to the focusing .org link but have not as yet
--BELL--

Lucinda Lavender: I appreciate that it was found anyway
Lucinda Lavender: sometimes it is hard for me to listen outloud in my environment:) and that sounds funny because we have been thinking about listning
Eliza Madrigal: "listening outloud" that's a great and curious phrase :D
Lucinda Lavender: as opposed to with earphones
Eliza Madrigal: there are so many ways in which people are developing methods to become less reactive. Focusing, Non-violent communication... meditation itself - all ways to nurture stability, capacity...
Eliza Madrigal: Last night's exploration with Pema was a nice compliment to what you described in your email - listening underneath the words...
Eliza Madrigal: Pema called it "quality"
Lucinda Lavender: I was able to read the session later...tho I would want to take more time reading it again and listen again
Lucinda Lavender: quality...hmmm
Eliza Madrigal: words themselves can be very limited, but there is perhaps something else to hear than words .. I guess is the idea ..
Eliza Madrigal: like you mentioned "song"
Lucinda Lavender: yes listening for an overall felt impression
Lucinda Lavender: some people speak in a very sing song way to begine with
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: one which implies...knowing...comfort..or reassuance
Lucinda Lavender: more like
Lucinda Lavender: reassurance
Eliza Madrigal: feeling tones...
Lucinda Lavender: and some have kind of a space/openess
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza, Luci :)
Lucinda Lavender: riding the waves of emotion surfing them...
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Zen!
Eliza Madrigal gave Zen a portion of text in IM
Lucinda Lavender: we were just talking about listning to voices...and their song
Zen Arado: thanks
Eliza Madrigal: do you find that you speak in different ways to each of your students, Luci? How does it differ from when you communicate with the group?
Lucinda Lavender: right...yes I would say so...different when addressing a group.
Zen Arado: wechange our delivery to suit listeners
Zen Arado: skilful means?
Lucinda Lavender: have to call up more strength and projection to be heard...tho I know a few others at my work who are masters of not having to talk loud
--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: interesting... skillful means, and where do those 'come from'… At first I was thinking it comes from the one being communicated with - because the tone or range shows up differently - but it is a unique combination
Zen Arado: it is two way
Eliza Madrigal: I marvel at teachers who are really calm yet have the attention of students
Zen Arado: guess everything is
Eliza Madrigal: I was kind of a clown when tutoring which was fun but took much energy
Zen Arado: needs confidence I guess
Lucinda Lavender: appearing full of energy takes energy:)
Eliza Madrigal grins
Zen Arado: teaching does take a lot of energy any way i think
Lucinda Lavender: but for me it does gain others attention...turning down the"volume" on that energy is kind a good skill too:)
Eliza Madrigal: :) guess there are ways to prepare and then see what shows up in the moment
Zen Arado: challenge is to keep yourself interested if material is repetitive
Zen Arado: if you get bored it makes others bored too
Eliza Madrigal: true... maybe boredom is a sign of being caught too much in the content of something, missing the 'quality'
Zen Arado: I taught factual material
Zen Arado: but you can find interesting aspects to that too
Zen Arado: interesting ways to present it
Lucinda Lavender: nodding
Zen Arado: that's how to maintain interest
Lucinda Lavender: so that people even the teacher does not shut down
Zen Arado: too slick can be pffputting too
Eliza Madrigal: boredom might allow for learning to go deeper at times, tho... funny balance. Daydreaming ... or searching for meaning
Zen Arado: have to take risks
Lucinda Lavender: I am remembering a statement by a friend...ah...when you are getting bored you are about to discover something new...
Lucinda Lavender: almost lke a gestation period for understanding
Zen Arado: 'safeness' is a recipe for boredom
Eliza Madrigal: "creativity is the residue of wasted time" - dear Albert Einstein
Eliza Madrigal: gestation, nodding
Zen Arado: teaching cn be playing by ear
Eliza Madrigal: how so?
Zen Arado: sensitivy to hearers
Zen Arado: if it isn't getting across you might need to adapt
Eliza Madrigal: there are also different processing speeds or expressions ... nice to have the luxury of working with someone over time
Zen Arado: yeh
Lucinda Lavender: hello Alpha Male...(his name is reachashishs2 Resident for the following discussion)
Zen Arado: you have to be rigid with a large group though
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alpha
reachashishs2 Resident: hi
Zen Arado: Hi alpha
Lucinda Lavender: we are haveing a discussion that is being recorded...have you been here before...?
Lucinda Lavender: would you like a note card about Play as Being?
--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Alpha has been here before... also to some art events with the group :)
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Zen Arado: you live in India alpha?
reachashishs2 Resident: yep
reachashishs2 Resident: i am half-intellectual
Eliza Madrigal smiles
reachashishs2 Resident: yeah
reachashishs2 Resident: i live in indyeaaah
Zen Arado: and you like J.Krishnamurti...always a good start :)
Lucinda Lavender: :))
Eliza Madrigal: of all the wise things that J. Krishnamurti has said... it is his demeanor and presence that stays with me... can't help but smile
Eliza Madrigal: so glad there are videos of him
Zen Arado: I like U.G. too
Zen Arado: but he is a bit cantankerous
Zen Arado: :)
Lucinda Lavender: nodding
Eliza Madrigal: U.G.?
Zen Arado: UG Krishnamurti
Lucinda Lavender: who is U.G.?
reachashishs2 Resident: he is a gr8 guy
Zen Arado: yeh plenty of free talks on the web
reachashishs2 Resident: yeah
Zen Arado: if you look him up
reachashishs2 Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: interesting, news to me.. U.G. : )
Zen Arado: they aren't related
Lucinda Lavender: I may crash soon...
Lucinda Lavender: I will check that out...
Zen Arado: http://praveennv.blogspot.co.uk/2007...ti-quotes.html
Zen Arado: a taster
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Zen
reachashishs2 Resident: a teaser
reachashishs2 Resident: actually
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: he gives it straight
Eliza Madrigal: *Real silence is explosive; it is not the dead state of mind that spiritual seekers think. This is volcanic in its nature; it's bubbling all the time--the energy, the life--that is its quality.
Lucinda Lavender: well we were speaking about demeanor...delivery...in teaching weren't we...
Lucinda Lavender: ?
Zen Arado: '*All gurus are welfare organizations providing petty experiences to their followers. The guru game is a profitable industry; try and make two million dollars a year any other way.'
Zen Arado: ha ha
Eliza Madrigal: yes
reachashishs2 Resident: moral: be ur own guru
Eliza Madrigal: and quality
Zen Arado: exactly alpha
Eliza Madrigal: the study of the self is to forget the self, the job of a guru to wean off a guru?
reachashishs2 Resident: but
reachashishs2 Resident: a little guidance
Lucinda Lavender: :))
reachashishs2 Resident: and nurturing is needed
reachashishs2 Resident: therefore
Zen Arado: I don't believe everything he says
reachashishs2 Resident: the concept of a guru
reachashishs2 Resident: this concept is an integral part
reachashishs2 Resident: of indian society
reachashishs2 Resident: to respect guru
reachashishs2 Resident: and
reachashishs2 Resident: in return
reachashishs2 Resident: receive
reachashishs2 Resident: wisdom
Eliza Madrigal: is it expected that everyone find a guru, in India?
reachashishs2 Resident: no
reachashishs2 Resident: it's a choice u make
reachashishs2 Resident: but many willingly
reachashishs2 Resident: follow a guru
reachashishs2 Resident: when it comes to treading
reachashishs2 Resident: the spiritual path
Eliza Madrigal: the guru helps one to see their own nature, in a sense... but from the outside it can look, especially to westerners at times, like disengaging from intellect
Zen Arado: but gurus are meant to be dispensed with eventually
Lucinda Lavender: maybe like therapists:)
reachashishs2 Resident: no, no,
reachashishs2 Resident: and no
reachashishs2 Resident: spirituality
reachashishs2 Resident: is
Eliza Madrigal: :) I think there are real parallels in the West, re therapists
reachashishs2 Resident: intellectual disengagement
Eliza Madrigal: these are important distinctions
Eliza Madrigal: please say more Alpha?
Lucinda Lavender: can you say more about the disengagement?
Zen Arado: '*I am always emphasizing that somehow the truth has to dawn upon you that there is nothing to understand. '
reachashishs2 Resident: the spiritual path isn't a logical one
reachashishs2 Resident: there's no
reachashishs2 Resident: rationale
--BELL--

reachashishs2 Resident: the west
Zen Arado: I tell that to people who try to 'understand' my abstract paintings :)
reachashishs2 Resident: is too intellectually engageg
reachashishs2 Resident: in materialism
reachashishs2 Resident: too rational
Zen Arado: nods
reachashishs2 Resident: and logically-mindede
Eliza Madrigal: isn't there place for integration? That may be one of the questions we've been asking in recent theme sessions...
reachashishs2 Resident: reasoning
reachashishs2 Resident: and intellect
Lucinda Lavender: I was just remembeintegration is a nice word
Zen Arado: it could also be a way to try to hold on to intellectualizing
reachashishs2 Resident: relate and pertain
reachashishs2 Resident: to the outside world
reachashishs2 Resident: for these are relevant there
reachashishs2 Resident: and essential even
reachashishs2 Resident: but to explore
reachashishs2 Resident: the inner world
reachashishs2 Resident: u need to develop
reachashishs2 Resident: extraordinary faculties
reachashishs2 Resident: much higher than reasoning
reachashishs2 Resident: and intellect
Eliza Madrigal: my understanding of non-duality is of a context or quality that is beyond inside/outside...
Eliza Madrigal: so something like Joseph Campbell described with "inner reaches of outer space" there seems a way not to choose between but rather hm...
Eliza Madrigal: not be pinned down to either intro/extro?
reachashishs2 Resident: the world
reachashishs2 Resident: in essense
reachashishs2 Resident: is an illusion
reachashishs2 Resident: hinduism
reachashishs2 Resident: defines
reachashishs2 Resident: this as maya
reachashishs2 Resident: fickle
reachashishs2 Resident: and fake
reachashishs2 Resident: the west
reachashishs2 Resident: engages too much in maya
reachashishs2 Resident: and takes it for real
reachashishs2 Resident: it thinks
reachashishs2 Resident: it has conquered
Santoshima Resident: kind of a generaization there, alpha
reachashishs2 Resident: mankind
Eliza Madrigal nods... yet to be averse also takes it as real...
reachashishs2 Resident: by
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San
Santoshima Resident: hi
reachashishs2 Resident: sending man to moon
reachashishs2 Resident: but then again
Santoshima Resident: theory that was a ruse
reachashishs2 Resident: the west
reachashishs2 Resident: is deluded
reachashishs2 Resident: in thinking so
Santoshima Resident: a studio photo op
Zen Arado: Hi San
Santoshima Resident: has been writen
Santoshima Resident: t
Santoshima Resident: hi zen
Santoshima Resident: the "west"
Santoshima Resident: is what, alpha?
Santoshima Resident: consumer sulture
Santoshima Resident: capitalism
Santoshima Resident: what ism
Santoshima Resident: is the "west"
Santoshima Resident: what religion
Santoshima Resident: is the "west
Santoshima Resident: anything non-Hindu?
reachashishs2 Resident: u said itall san
reachashishs2 Resident: it*
Santoshima Resident: to you, your definition, please
Santoshima Resident: i didn't give one
Eliza Madrigal: the dialog between Eastern and Western mindsets is just beginning, I feel ...
reachashishs2 Resident: anything to do with consumerism
Lucinda Lavender: hi san:)
Santoshima Resident: hi luci
reachashishs2 Resident: and materialistic
reachashishs2 Resident: values
Santoshima Resident: and doesn't consumer culture exist in the "east"
Zen Arado: UG is woth looking at
reachashishs2 Resident: spreading like contagion
Zen Arado: worth
Santoshima Resident: yes
reachashishs2 Resident: when i am saying west
reachashishs2 Resident: i mean consumerist values
Zen Arado: we should do a study of his teaching
Santoshima Resident: i see, thanks, alpha
reachashishs2 Resident: no geographical strings attached
Santoshima Resident: UG stands for?
reachashishs2 Resident: :)4
Eliza Madrigal: hard to argue that in the US especially, we've bought into objects as having meaning... but now we are having inconvenient awakenings that cause us to look deeper
reachashishs2 Resident: under graduate
Zen Arado: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._G._Krishnamurti
Lucinda Lavender: inconvienient awakings
Lucinda Lavender: like that
Zen Arado: Hi Alf
Lucinda Lavender: way of saying
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Santoshima Resident: hello mighty
Alfred Kelberry: legs crossed - nice, eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Luci... it really describes something that I've felt personally but more and more see all around
Alfred Kelberry: hi, alpha - new guy! :)
Santoshima Resident: ok, you mean J. Krishnamurti
reachashishs2 Resident: yeah
Eliza Madrigal: boxy , we've been exploring east/west, consumer culture... so much
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Mighty Pirate
Zen Arado: no, UG Krishnamurti
Santoshima Resident: ah, ok
Alfred Kelberry: oh, nice topic!
Alfred Kelberry: what major differences did you find?
Zen Arado: lookk at the link
Zen Arado: 'He was unrelated to his contemporary Jiddu Krishnamurti, although the two men had a number of meetings.[1] To avoid confusion he was usually referred to as "U.G".'
Eliza Madrigal: well the question of whether there can be integration, mainly (what I keyed into anyway)
reachashishs2 Resident: there can be a sufffusion of values
reachashishs2 Resident: the west can imbibe eastern traditions
Zen Arado: you know why they do koans in Zen?
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i think soon enough there will be only one consumer culture - american :)
reachashishs2 Resident: and the east can borrow
reachashishs2 Resident: modernist concepts
Santoshima Resident: why zen?
reachashishs2 Resident: replace that with chinese
Zen Arado: to help free us from intellectualizations
Santoshima Resident: imbibe as in "consume", alpha
Santoshima Resident: ?
reachashishs2 Resident: if u will
--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: some might see a flower as an object... but is it?
Santoshima Resident: not
Zen Arado: but we Westerners dont like that
Zen Arado: anyway I have to go
Eliza Madrigal: bye Zen, thanks
Santoshima Resident: bye Zen
Zen Arado: byee thanks
reachashishs2 Resident: it cud be delusion
Santoshima Resident: good to see you
Alfred Kelberry: alpha, chinese set out strongly on the course to western consumerism
Santoshima Resident: india, too
reachashishs2 Resident: nods
Lucinda Lavender: I should go too. carry on and I will post to the wiki....
Santoshima Resident: plastics led the way to hell
Santoshima Resident: lead
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Luci, so much
Lucinda Lavender: sure;a0
Lucinda Lavender: ooops
Santoshima Resident: if there is such a thing it is of human making
Lucinda Lavender: sure:)
Santoshima Resident: bye luci
Alfred Kelberry: the major goal of free market is to extend outward until there is nothing else left to concur :)
Lucinda Lavender: Will look up about UG
reachashishs2 Resident: sl, the platform,
reachashishs2 Resident: is a perfect blend
reachashishs2 Resident: of east,wets
reachashishs2 Resident: west*
Alfred Kelberry: san, sadly, i read how this western trend influence declining respect for elderlies
Eliza Madrigal: well in SL we come in knowing that we are taking part in a dream...
Santoshima Resident: sorry boxy, don't know what you're refering too
Santoshima Resident: r
Santoshima Resident: in sl we learn that?
Eliza Madrigal: well it is one way of approach I should say
Santoshima Resident: in sl we learn the techniques of disembodyment, i think
Santoshima Resident: i
Santoshima Resident: how to be " in the head"
Santoshima Resident: and disconnect from body
Eliza Madrigal: I think it can be an apt parallel ... perhaps double edged
Santoshima Resident: is my sense, after 1 year online
Santoshima Resident: it is a physical drain
Santoshima Resident: bye ~ heading into the rainy day
Eliza Madrigal: it is a physical drain, grant that...
Eliza Madrigal: Bye
Alfred Kelberry: san, asian cultures are known for their piety towards elderly people. it is in decline now due to western influence where hating parents is sort of a common thing.
Eliza Madrigal: are you familiar with the economist who wrote "Black Swan"
Eliza Madrigal: he said aloud that he feels the economic crisis was not bad enough...
Eliza Madrigal: because although it gave a glimpse of fear
Eliza Madrigal: it did not demand fundamental change of our ways of doing things
Eliza Madrigal: I've seen families moving back in together a lot in Miami... sort of interesting as one effect
reachashishs2 Resident: again spirtuaality demands moderation
reachashishs2 Resident: the crisis
reachashishs2 Resident: was a fallout of
reachashishs2 Resident: our excesses
reachashishs2 Resident: and
reachashishs2 Resident: relentless pursuit
reachashishs2 Resident: of lucre
reachashishs2 Resident: no one
reachashishs2 Resident: followed the 'middle path'
reachashishs2 Resident: especially the wall street guys
reachashishs2 Resident: depraved individuals
reachashishs2 Resident: in every sense of the word
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i think it presents all the evidence for change, but... it's not working :)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, alpha, no more balance anymore
Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, down the road, to go to an extreme in rejecting, is another kind of idealism that has its own pitfalls?
reachashishs2 Resident: no
Alfred Kelberry: but who if not us we should blame for this?
Eliza Madrigal: right, nowhere to point
Eliza Madrigal: all implicated
reachashishs2 Resident: that's renouncement
reachashishs2 Resident: u give up everything
Eliza Madrigal: renunciation... by choice...
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, rejecting what?
reachashishs2 Resident: selflessly
reachashishs2 Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: but if there is no choice to make then the renunciation doesn't really mean that
Eliza Madrigal: so.. form/emptiness....
reachashishs2 Resident: there's always a choice
Eliza Madrigal: rejecting materialism Alf... or typically thought of as 'western' ideals
reachashishs2 Resident: a second chance
reachashishs2 Resident: god's always gracious
reachashishs2 Resident: certainly
reachashishs2 Resident: materialism
reachashishs2 Resident: as A CONCEPT
Alfred Kelberry: oh... no, i believe in how alpha said the middle path. any radical inclination is harmful.
Eliza Madrigal nods
reachashishs2 Resident: WAS fuelled by western consumption
Eliza Madrigal: there is just a kind of tricky matter of incorporating the time we have had.... if one takes a long view...
Eliza Madrigal: so, like with the Florida Everglades restoration...
Eliza Madrigal: there was this acceptance that yes, it had been plundered
Eliza Madrigal: and treated badly...
Eliza Madrigal: so then they came up with all kinds of strategties to fix it...
reachashishs2 Resident: yeah
Alfred Kelberry: i think capitalism (greed) + socialism (equality) is the path to equanimity :)
Eliza Madrigal: but what was needed / is needed, is that the ecosystem that grew up with the ill effects... be incorporated
Eliza Madrigal: how so Boxy?
--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: how sweden or germany do that (or try to)
Alfred Kelberry: there's a strong capitalist presence, but it is regulated by social policies
Alfred Kelberry: dharmic balance :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: alpha is IMing thanking for a nice discussion but had to go
Alfred Kelberry: although, under the influence of neo liberals (backed by the u.s.) it skews towards capital
Alfred Kelberry: ah, nice :)
Eliza Madrigal: well I think selling the US the idea of being Sweeden hasn't worked....
Eliza Madrigal: even if some of us think that might be nice to try, hah
Alfred Kelberry: yes, the pro capital ideals became ingrained in americans for the last 20 years of free market hegemony
Eliza Madrigal: so there has to be some blend with respect for both 'sides'
Alfred Kelberry: anything social is dubbed "commie"
Alfred Kelberry: yes, as i mentioned :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
Eliza Madrigal: I generally agree... fun to try to tease out the distinctions and see how there might be 'practical application' ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: the occupy movement was this missing element in stabilizing the course
Eliza Madrigal: agree
Eliza Madrigal: still potential there but thunder taken away by the pretend horse race of US elections
Eliza Madrigal: btw do you keep seeing the railcar come through the pavliion?? lol
Alfred Kelberry: occupy was very practical :)
Alfred Kelberry: er... nope
Eliza Madrigal: it is still around just not thriving
Eliza Madrigal: there is a kind of network to tap at the right time
Alfred Kelberry: i enjoy your lovely avatar :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) thanks
Eliza Madrigal: I'd better go... daughter just made breakfast, yum...
Alfred Kelberry: easy to skip railcars :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh, how nice! finally, the baby thing gets paid off! :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Alfred Kelberry: bon appetite :)
Eliza Madrigal: yeah well..
Eliza Madrigal: thanks, bye for now.... oh, please read last night's session... missed you!
Eliza Madrigal: sleeping pup maybe...
Alfred Kelberry: yes, not good time for me
Eliza Madrigal: ah well maybe need to find a way for it to work / email with pema or...?
Eliza Madrigal: anyway, better go
Alfred Kelberry: i've seen an email from pema. will read.
Eliza Madrigal: k :)
Eliza Madrigal waves
Alfred Kelberry: it's ok. i'll try to make it when i can.