2012.07.22 13:00 - Back into the ocean we came from

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi San
LuthienTalbot Resident: hello san
Santoshima Resident: greetings to you both
Aphrodite Macbain: What did you think of the play San?
Santoshima Resident: great play today, Aph
Santoshima Resident: a fine crowd, too
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!!
Santoshima Resident: crashed due to overwhelm
Santoshima Resident: recovered quickly and resumed seat
Aphrodite Macbain: lots of lag but it still worked
Santoshima Resident: yeah, very well
Aphrodite Macbain: oh good. Didn’t notice
Santoshima Resident: lot's of elaborate costumes
Santoshima Resident: did that contribute to lag?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, lots of prims slow things down
Aphrodite Macbain: turn things to porridge

Aphrodite Macbain: Luthien is new to PaB San
Santoshima Resident: hi Luthien
Santoshima Resident: are you also new to sl?
:LuthienTalbot Resident: I've been around a while

Santoshima Resident: ah, quiet here today
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. Are you teaching yoga today/
Santoshima Resident: noooo
Santoshima Resident: day off
Aphrodite Macbain: ah a day of rest!
Santoshima Resident: and the session is over as of yesterday, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: too bad it's grey
Santoshima Resident: now a little rest
Santoshima Resident: oh, i love the grey days
Santoshima Resident: cool and bright
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. I have a new book I want to start reading
Santoshima Resident: freshness, and a new crop of chickadees .... what's the book?
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe I can between 2 and 3 when the next play starts
Aphrodite Macbain: The Emotional Life of the Brain
Aphrodite Macbain: by Richard Davidson
Santoshima Resident: ah
Aphrodite Macbain: Says that the cerebral cortex is not just for rational thinking but also for emotional thinking
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: I like your hair San. Feathers
Aphrodite Macbain: was it for the performance?
Santoshima Resident: tried to tidy up for the show today
Santoshima Resident: let me see if i can find you some
Aphrodite Macbain: They are almost like hair extenders
Santoshima Resident: whoa
LuthienTalbot Resident: I'm going to be missing the play I'm afraid
Aphrodite Macbain: Luthien, can I call you Luth?
Aphrodite Macbain: It's at three pm till 3:45
LuthienTalbot Resident: I'm not sure why you'd want to
Aphrodite Macbain: It's faster and shorter
Santoshima Resident: what brings you to PaB, Luthien?
Aphrodite Macbain: But I'll call you Luthien if you'd prefer
Santoshima Resident: hello Darren
Darren Islar: hi there :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Darren!! Great to see you!
LuthienTalbot Resident: aph, actually, we met at Melioria
Aphrodite Macbain: You don’t usually come to the Pavilion
LuthienTalbot Resident: hi Darren
Aphrodite Macbain: oh? did you come to one of my coffees?
Aphrodite Macbain: Darren, did you get the notification about the play I'm in?
Santoshima Resident: hey Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: GTSY
Darren Islar: hey Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: great music yesterday
Zen Arado: Hi all
Zen Arado: thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen, this is Luthien
LuthienTalbot Resident: hello zen
Zen Arado: Hi Luth
Aphrodite Macbain: He came to the Aphrodite Caffee in Melioria
LuthienTalbot Resident: and, it seems, made only a light impression
Zen Arado: he's dressed for it :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: sorry. So many people come to the cafe
LuthienTalbot Resident: I think I can find it in my heart to forgive such a lovely lady
Aphrodite Macbain: awww
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks

Aphrodite Macbain: What do people think of the discussions in email- about science etc?
Darren Islar: haven't read them
Zen Arado: sounds like philosophy of science to me
Zen Arado: but nobody seems to like philosophy around here
Zen Arado: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- I have been putting my 2c worth in there but I don’t think it's worth 2c
Aphrodite Macbain: I like philosophy Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: I just don’t know a lot about it
Zen Arado: there are many branches
Darren Islar: wonders if PAB is about philosophy
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Zen Arado: well if you think about anything, that is philosophy to me
Aphrodite Macbain: surely the search for reality is about philosophy
Zen Arado: heard of realism/antirealism debate?
Darren Islar: philosophy has a way to look at things in third person, placing it outside yourself as a concept ... experience is about yourself
Darren Islar: not that it isn't fun :)
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Zen Arado: you can apply it too
Aphrodite Macbain: we have been talking subjective/objective instead.
Aphrodite Macbain: I like Pema's inter-subjective approach
Zen Arado: my first philosophy course was about life and death
Wol Euler: evening all

Darren Islar: hi Wol
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Santoshima Resident: hello Wol
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Wol!
Wol Euler: darren, nice to see you again
Darren Islar: thanks, nice to see you Wol :)
LuthienTalbot Resident: hi wol

Zen Arado: hello Wol
Zen Arado: about abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, suicide
Zen Arado: so quite real I thought
Zen Arado: :)
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you look at the Tibetan Buddhist philosophy of death and dying?
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen?
Zen Arado: not keen on it
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes religion and philosophy blend
Zen Arado: Bardos and suchlike
Aphrodite Macbain: Too unrealistic?
Aphrodite Macbain: I like their attitude to death - and the acceptance of it as a transition
Zen Arado: nobody knows what happens after death

Santoshima Resident: salut
Wol Euler: bye san, take care
Zen Arado: salut San
Darren Islar: see you San
LuthienTalbot Resident: bye san
Aphrodite Macbain: Waves to San

Aphrodite Macbain: No but as one dies, our bodies go through many transformations
Zen Arado: yeh except that our bodies change and decay
Aphrodite Macbain: and the Tibetan way of death encourages one to be prepared for the transition. It's rather nice actually.
Zen Arado: if you like it why not?
LuthienTalbot Resident: you don't like being prepared for death Zen?
Zen Arado: sometimes I do a death meditation
Zen Arado: you know that one?
Aphrodite Macbain: what does that involve?
Darren Islar: in a way Tibetan Buddhist only live for one moment, that is the moment of dying
Aphrodite Macbain: really Darren?
Zen Arado: 'Death is certain, only the time of death is uncertain'
Zen Arado: so what should I do?
Aphrodite Macbain: can u say more Darren. I haven't heard of this
Zen Arado: live as best as possible each moment

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi SSL
Zen Arado: Hi Sharon
Zen Arado: yes Darren
Aphrodite Macbain: They encourage those at the deathbed not to fight the loved one's departure but to allow them to go
Zen Arado: you can say we die each moment

Zen Arado: and are reborn each moment
Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: by living in the present you mean?
Darren Islar: well, you actually said it.... Tibetan Buddhism is about transformation, there seems to be a huge opportunity in the process of dying
Zen Arado: I think death is like deep sleep
Zen Arado: no awareness
Aphrodite Macbain: do you believe in reincarnation Zen?
Darren Islar: that seems to depend though; a period of unconsciousness is described
Zen Arado: it's like we go back into the ocean we came from
Zen Arado: I have no beliefs of an afterlife....I'll wait and see
Zen Arado: a death agnostic?
Zen Arado: :)
Wol Euler: hehehehe
Wol Euler: I'm pretty sure I believe in death :)
Wol Euler: not agnostic about that
Zen Arado: see what happens...as Pema would say
Zen Arado: yeh but about what happens
Zen Arado: an afterlife agnostic then
Wol Euler smiles and nods. I was kidding.
Aphrodite Macbain: But the trouble with that is you wont learn anything afterwards b/c you'll be dead
Zen Arado: won't need to learn anything then :)
Aphrodite Macbain: But the term "we'll see" implies an looking backward at what happens
Darren Islar: to make the transition, to make it 'worthwhile', Tibetans feel you need to be able to lead your mind ... everything you do is also a training for that moment
Aphrodite Macbain: yes? to lead your mind to observe your body as it transforms?
SophiaSharon Larnia: what do they believe dies?

Aphrodite Macbain: the body I think SSL
Zen Arado: I guess I am an empiricist about death
Darren Islar: the body is seen as only a vessel, it's not important
Zen Arado: there is no one to die I think...just a change to a different form
Zen Arado: but the ego doesn't like that
Aphrodite Macbain: and somehow the mind (which is embodied) somehow remains?
Darren Islar: it’s like a condo you live in when you move out
Aphrodite Macbain: but who is doing the moving if we have no ego?
SophiaSharon Larnia: "essense" intact, ego or whatever you want to call it?
Darren Islar: ego is described as the will to hold on to 'reality'
Zen Arado: you have to believe in transmigration of souls or something for that
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought we were supposed to let go of the ego?
Darren Islar: as in ‘not changeable and controllable reality”
--BELL--
Zen Arado: Ringu Tulku said something about it just being habit patterns that get transferred
Aphrodite Macbain holds her head in puzzlement
Darren Islar: what 'goes on' is not something that doesn't change, it's something that can be transformed, but as such still exists
Aphrodite Macbain: and what IS that Darren?
Aphrodite Macbain: energy?
Aphrodite Macbain: strings? particles?
Darren Islar: not sure of the English word they use for that, but I think it's mind
Darren Islar: hey Sophia, only seeing you now :)
Aphrodite Macbain: and how can it have a "personality" that continues and is reincarnated
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Darren :) nice to see you
Darren Islar: beause we give it personality :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we?
Aphrodite Macbain: the body that held it once?
Zen Arado: Akong Tulku's explanation::
Zen Arado: Akong offers a better explanation of what might survive death by use of an analogy. Ultimate reality is like an empty space. Individuals are like buildings occupying a part of this space. The end of a life is like the demolishing of a building, but then we build another – our next life – around the same emptiness. And if you do that, you have the same land and same atmosphere, which is why the karma follows you. The habits you follow in one life follow you to the next. Baggini, Julian (2011-01-01). The Ego Trick (p. 182). Granta. Kindle Edition.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am not trying to be argumentative, just to understand the logic of this structure
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks. each space has its own karma and personality?
Zen Arado: maybe we think we are the building, not the space
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: body/mind/spirit all wrapped into one and inseparable, I think
Aphrodite Macbain: when one goes, they all go together
Darren Islar: it's very complicated, it's not the body, but as for normal reborns, there is karma that travels with us, or karma that is attracted by energy ... as for reincarnations, it is said, they are trained to leave those things behind, since it's all part of ego ,... but there seems to be something like personality left
SophiaSharon Larnia: sounds kinda crowded in there
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Wol Euler: that is an interesting idea, Zen: space not building
Zen Arado: ''Ringu puts the same idea in a slightly different way. That which continues from one life to the next is not the contents of consciousness, such as memories or knowledge of people and places, but the mind’s ‘habitual tendencies’. So if, for example, you have practiced mindfulness enough to have extreme mental clarity, then that clarity will be there in your reincarnation. ‘If anything continues, I think what would continue are my habitual tendencies, the way I react, the way I think. That is what would probably continue, not necessarily all the memories, because lots of things we forget even now.’ Baggini, Julian (2011-01-01). The Ego Trick (pp. 182-183). Granta. Kindle Edition. ''
Wol Euler: the perceived space of a building is not the bricks that compose its walls
SophiaSharon Larnia: reads and thinks
Wol Euler: when I think about "me" I tend not to think directly about my body, but about my sensations and my thoughts and memories
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: It's a nice concept. All that effort not being wasted. And I thought we couldn't take it with us!
Zen Arado: if you don't remember previous life what difference does having one make?
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) aph
Darren Islar: nods to Zen, that's is actually why everything is seen as a preparation to death ... it's the imprints you take with you ... those can be beneficial or not and will determine a great deal of your next life
Zen Arado: or it has shaped what we will be unknowingly
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what karma is then? the imprints?
LuthienTalbot Resident: this would make personality more important than accomplishment
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: who you are rather than what you have or have done
Darren Islar: it's actually why Buddhists don't like to kill flies, it's not the fly, it's the imprint of killing, the fact you make that possible in your mind, that is going with you
Darren Islar: whatever 'you' is :)
Aphrodite Macbain: every action leaves some kind of impression on the mind/body/spirit?
Zen Arado: it all seems to me to require belief though
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. leaps of faith
Zen Arado: there's no empirical evidence (since we are thinking in scientific vein)
Aphrodite Macbain: leaping panthers! :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Darren Islar: yes, if you have a pattern that has been there for all of your life, you probably take it with you
Darren Islar: and that is probably part of your 'personality'
Aphrodite Macbain: wonders where those patterns are stored. Surely in the brain. But the brain dies...

Darren Islar [Darius] grins ... you are so focussed on the body
Aphrodite Macbain: It's all I can see and feel Darren:-)

Zen Arado: the belief in an afterlife runs deep in the human psyche
LuthienTalbot Resident: an empirical indicator is that people are born with personalities, and as they grow they tend to have both similarities and differences from their siblings
Wol Euler: Luthien, in a way it always is so. One can be a fine artist and a disgusting human being.
Zen Arado: even though quite illogical
Zen Arado: change is about the only thing that is sure
Aphrodite Macbain: sure.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think I am content to become stardust again when I die.
Wol Euler smiles.
Darren Islar: well, the body dies, I don't know what is left ... I took a vow in which reincarnation is part of my life, but what it looks like, how it works, I don't know .. even if it exists, I don't know, but that is of no interest, since for now it's not about what dies or not, for now it is what is
--BELL--
Darren Islar: the 'concept' of reincarnation, to work with that is the part that gives 'depth' to my thoughts, not whether it really exists or not ... that is interesting about Buddhism, you work with concepts, knowing it's jut that…concepts ... and since concepts change all the time..... so we change
Darren Islar: all the time
Darren Islar: even in death
Darren Islar: that's an interesting thought in itself
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, thanks Darren
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am afraid I have to poof now. I have 3'/4 hour to get ready for the second play
Zen Arado: if we don't see ourselves as a separate individuals there is nothing to die
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Aph, I wish I could make it
Zen Arado: just changes of forms
Wol Euler: bye aph, break a pixel
LuthienTalbot Resident: break a leg Suzanne
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!
Zen Arado: byee Aph
Wol Euler: and to anyone who didn't see it earlier on: it's a good show :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks everyone. I really learned a lot today
Zen Arado: hope to see second show
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Wol
LuthienTalbot Resident: I must go as well
Wol Euler: bye Luthien, nice meeting you
LuthienTalbot Resident: thanks for the interesting discussion
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Luthien
Zen Arado: bye Luth
Zen Arado: byee all
Wol Euler: bye zen, take care
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Zen
SophiaSharon Larnia: and I have a new SL toy I want to play with for a little bit, be for now :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye*
Wol Euler: yay :) sounds like fun
Wol Euler: bye sophia, play well
SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you * you too*
Darren Islar: not used to the shortness of an hour any more :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: proving Einstein right :)
Wol Euler: that time is relative
Darren Islar: hehe
Wol Euler: I think I agree with your position, as I understand it: There may be an afterlife or not, but it has no effect on *this* life and what we do here will not carry forward into the next one
Wol Euler: so it is for me only a philosophical "toy" to consider, not a practical reality
Wol Euler: one lives rightly in this life not for the sake of a better afterlife, but because living rightly is the right thing to do
Wol Euler: right in itself.
Darren Islar: hmmm, not quite ... it's reality to me, the concept is there since it fits, but ultimately it's about effect it has now ... the concept is about the 'fact' there is nothing that doesn't change, strangely enough it also means nothing can die ... reincarnation fits in well in that concept, but it is about what it means to you now in this life
Wol Euler nods.
Darren Islar: there is nothing that can die…it only can change
Darren Islar: and that concept I like
Wol Euler: well, yes but :)
Wol Euler: matter changes not dies, but consciousness does appear to die
Wol Euler: because I do not know what my former lives were like
Darren Islar: appears yes, but if you, like me, work with the concept that is not possible, it influences where you stand now ... would be proven that reincarnation doesn't exist, it means the Buddhist has been working on things that don't exist, but that IS the heart of Buddhism ...if the concept doesn’t  turn out right, you go find yourself another job
Darren Islar: and there is change again
--BELL--
Wol Euler: I don't see the problem. Just because I don't remember my past life doesn’t mean I don't have one
Wol Euler: I don't remember being 26 days old either, but I was :)
Darren Islar: yes
Darren Islar: our consciousness becomes that subtle, that we can't remember the transition
Darren Islar: that’s the theory :)
Wol Euler: but because I can't remember it, I believe that it is not practically relevant to this life.
Darren Islar: yes and no. I guess, you can only work with what you see, but if you say that is the only truth it shows a rigid mind ... if you feel it's part of something much bigger, you probably will be open to other concepts as well, as well as to everything around you ... it probably will make you more nosy

Wol Euler: hello Vorder, welcome to the guardians :)
Darren Islar: hi Vorder
Vorder Forder: hello

Wol Euler: I'm not saying it isn't true, not at all; but I am saying that I do not plan this life with hopes of my next one
Darren Islar [Darius] nods ... yes, I see what you mean, that is living in the future
Wol Euler: exactly
Wol Euler: and also living second-hand, doing good because you expect a reward for it, not because it is good
Darren Islar: yes
Darren Islar: it takes you away from what is of value right now
Wol Euler nods.
Darren Islar: and might stop interesting and vital processes
Wol Euler: I've just remembered something.

Darren Islar: fjdksldl lsfjfks hmpf .. finds himself in the dark suddenly
Wol Euler: huh
Wol Euler: there is a huge spike of lag suddenly for some reason

Wol Euler: hello Lila, lovely to see you again
Wol Euler: you might want to move a little to the side though :)
Wol Euler: hehehehe
Darren Islar: hmmmm ... yes thank you :)
Lila Darkmatter: ooops :) Hi Darren
Darren Islar: hi Lila :)
Darren Islar: what was it you remember Wol?
Lila Darkmatter: Hi Vorder, Wol, too :)
Wol Euler: sorry, changed my mind :) I'll hold that back for another occasion, I need to think more closely about it
Darren Islar: okay
Wol Euler: as I started to describe the memory, I realized that it didn't actually mean what I thought it meant :)
Wol Euler: so I have to work on that
Darren Islar: might still be interesting, but no problem
Lila Darkmatter: aw, sounds interesting... I missed something
Lila Darkmatter: I can feel it , hah
Darren Islar: let me make you a nc
Wol Euler: it has been a very interesting discussion
Wol Euler: about karma and reincarnation and lives
Wol Euler: and knowability
Lila Darkmatter: thanks, nice
Lila Darkmatter: memory and karma is a favorite and fascinating subject
Wol Euler nods.
--BELL--
Lila Darkmatter: :::reading::::
Wol Euler: my dears, it grows late. Goodnight, take care, be happy and healthy
Wol Euler: enjoy your present lives :)
Lila Darkmatter: Oh, okay. Bye Wol :)
Darren Islar: hehe .. goodnight Wol :)
Lila Darkmatter: it is a long session
Lila Darkmatter: I will need to take some time with it :)
Darren Islar: tha's okay ... I'm afraid I will need to go too...was just thinking about it
Darren Islar: see you some other time
Lila Darkmatter: it was nice to see you Darren, been a while
Darren Islar: yes :)
Lila Darkmatter: :) bfn
Darren Islar: see you :)
Lila Darkmatter: :) just we two Vorder
Vorder Forder: aha
Vorder Forder: I am bit late to join your talk
Lila Darkmatter: I am late too, today
Lila Darkmatter: but I guess it went in many directions
Lila Darkmatter: we have been talking a lot about science and 'spirituality' lately
Lila Darkmatter: I guess I'll leave an interesting link and then be on my way too: http://www.analogdigital.us/2012/04/...ded-brain.html
Lila Darkmatter: but it was nice to see you
Lila Darkmatter: would like to hear about your interests and such sometime
Vorder Forder: and nice to see you...take good care
Lila Darkmatter: ty, bye for now