2012.07.08 13:00 - Mumbo jumbo, fuzzy nonsense or nothing??

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Graine, hello cousin
Graine Macbain: hi cousin
Aphrodite Macbain: you made it!
Graine Macbain: YES
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice colour topMumbo jumbo and fuzzy nonsense
Graine Macbain: ty
Graine Macbain: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: How are you?
Graine Macbain: fine and yourself?
Aphrodite Macbain: happy
Graine Macbain: god!
Graine Macbain: I mean good!
Aphrodite Macbain: I have just opened my exhibition of botanical illustration in Melioria.
Graine Macbain: I need to visit that
Graine Macbain: so many things to see and do in SL this weekend
Aphrodite Macbain: It was great to see people from PaB and Melioria there at the opening--almost all my SL friends together for the first time
Aphrodite Macbain: let me know what you think
Graine Macbain: I will
Graine Macbain: maybe you can exhibit at my gallery someday
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd love to! I can take the show there afterwards if you like.
Graine Macbain: OK, I have both galleries booked until the 22nd
Graine Macbain: I will contact you then
Graine Macbain: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It's not just my work, but examples from the 15th and 18th centuries as well, and accompanied by photographs by Candace Ducatillon
Graine Macbain: well, as long as you are represented in it
Aphrodite Macbain: More of an historical show with 4 of my paintings
Graine Macbain: so I can say it is your show
Graine Macbain: that's fine
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- I organized it, interpreted it, framed it and submitted work to it
Graine Macbain: where is everyone?
Aphrodite Macbain: It's only 1:08.
Aphrodite Macbain: We have already had two meetings today--one at 8 AM and then my opening at 11 AM
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe everyone is out in RL enjoying the summer
Aphrodite Macbain: How did your bicycle tour go? Is it finished?
Aphrodite Macbain: Ari!
Arisia Vita: two lovely ladies, may I join you?
Aphrodite Macbain: How you have changed!!
Graine Macbain: I wrote about it on my blog, but did not publish the second part
Graine Macbain: Hello Ari!
Arisia Vita: :)
Graine Macbain: please do
Arisia Vita: I love the Na'vi
Graine Macbain: I still need to make more tours, the mainland is big!
Aphrodite Macbain: what is that?
Aphrodite Macbain: the Na'vi?
Arisia Vita: the movie Avatar?
Arisia Vita: it was very popular
Aphrodite Macbain: oh right: forgot.
Aphrodite Macbain: nice.
Arisia Vita: they are much like native Americans
Arisia Vita: close to nature
Aphrodite Macbain: How does it feel to have blue skin?
Arisia Vita: connected
Arisia Vita: it feels good to be close to you two... :)
Arisia Vita: whatever the color
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles - well you are still the same old charmer Ari

Graine Macbain: brb

Arisia Vita: easy when close to such charming ladies
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Qt
Aphrodite Macbain: welcome
Qt Core: hi all
Arisia Vita: welcome Qt
Aphrodite Macbain: How are you? Seems like ages
Qt Core: it is, almost :-)
Qt Core: surviving the hot summer that at last arrived
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, same here
--BELL--
Graine Macbain: back
Graine Macbain: Hello Qt
Qt Core: Hi Graine
Graine Macbain: what did I miss?
Arisia Vita: miss?
Graine Macbain: while I was gone
Aphrodite Macbain: A nine second pause
Arisia Vita: it is more the case that you were missed...
Graine Macbain: well, then I picked the right moment then
Aphrodite Macbain: *smiles* indeed

Aphrodite Macbain: The proposed topic for discussion is:
    The application of spiritual practices in real life (e.g. vipassana in dharma is a way to calm down our     thoughts and increase awareness of self. its rl application is lessen stress, normalize breathing, settle down)
Aphrodite Macbain: Do any of your meditate or pause (like for 9 seconds) in your every day life?
Graine Macbain: I meditate zen fashion and also practice hatha yoga
Arisia Vita: I let my mind wander back to pleasant memories
Graine Macbain: but my dedication has slipped lately
Graine Macbain: need to get back on schedule
Graine Macbain: I notice I am not only calmer on the days I do them but I am also less tired at the end of the day
Aphrodite Macbain: Qt?
Qt Core: i should but i don't
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, the challenge is to be so regular that your mind and body demand it!
Graine Macbain: if you do just ten minutes a day it helps
Graine Macbain: maybe in the morning before you eat
Graine Macbain: or just before bed
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. The best is to do it BEFORE coffee
Graine Macbain: for sure!
Qt Core: that's why I don't do it, I don't drink coffee at all ;-)
Arisia Vita: neither do I Qt
Graine Macbain: I do but I have cut down a lot
Aphrodite Macbain: that's always hard for me since after feeding the cats, the first thing I do is make coffee
Graine Macbain: especially with the hot weather
Arisia Vita: welcome Zen
Graine Macbain: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Qt Core: hi Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Zen. Still got your (18^th century) costume on!
Zen Arado: changing..
Arisia Vita: more comfy now? :)
Zen Arado: yep glad I didn't live in those days
Zen Arado: :)
Qt Core: he's back in our millennium
Arisia Vita: you looked good Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: we are talking about how we apply our spiritual life or goals to our everyday practice
Zen Arado: that makes a divide
Zen Arado: to me
Arisia Vita: divide?
Aphrodite Macbain: a divide?
Zen Arado: as if they are separate
Qt Core: it is almost fun how my most meditative time is while driving back and fort from the office
Zen Arado: it's all just life
Zen Arado: yes Qt
Graine Macbain: unless someone cuts you off?
Graine Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: I hope you don’t meditate with your eyes closed!
Zen Arado: I don't know how to explain this stuff
Zen Arado: it just sounds new agey to others
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, but you explain very well!
Zen Arado: or fuzzy ;)
Zen Arado: it isn't neat logic

Driving as meditation

Graine Macbain: it's like you devote all your attention and energy to driving and it becomes almost meditative
Aphrodite Macbain: I think part of our meditative practice is to be completely open to the present moment - which is a great way to drive a car or do anything.
Qt Core: sometime i try to really concentrate on the driving thing, trying to block all the stray thoughts as in "oh, nice red/green/blue on that car, it reminds me of..."
Aphrodite Macbain: Trouble is we multitask all the time. Especially in SL
Zen Arado: better than being on autopilot anyway
Graine Macbain: you can do that with anything, but the more you are exposed to interruption with others that can knock you off
Zen Arado: I used to drive like that I admit
Graine Macbain: I think multitasking is a curse

Arisia Vita: welcome Cal
Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
Graine Macbain: hello Calvino
Aphrodite Macbain: It is!
Qt Core: Hi cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hello good day everyone :)
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: Cal - how great to see you
Aphrodite Macbain: We are talking about application of spiritual practices in real life
Aphrodite Macbain: It's not so much what I DO, it's how I try and act to others and to myself
Calvino Rabeni: A good topic - one could be very curious about it
Aphrodite Macbain: some people meditate- or try and get into a habit of meditating
Aphrodite Macbain: some people use rituals
Aphrodite Macbain: some people pray
Zen Arado: meditation meditates us
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you mean Zen?
Zen Arado: it just happens
Aphrodite Macbain: what does?
Zen Arado: meditation
Zen Arado: just a happening
Aphrodite Macbain: not for me
Aphrodite Macbain: I have to prepare myself physically and mentally
Zen Arado: but we separate a process into a “me who is doing meditation”
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, most of us do

Arisia Vita: how do you prepare?

Aphrodite Macbain: I sit in a comfortable position I can hold for 20 minutes Ari; I try and slow down my thinking and watch what comes up
Aphrodite Macbain: That, to me, also sounds like daydreaming - which I do a lot
Aphrodite Macbain: For me, meditation is a discipline

Qt Core: isn't it just being vought in the moment and everything else disappears, like when in a soothing shower or listening to good music?
Zen Arado: yes Qt
Zen Arado: that's preparation
Aphrodite Macbain: yes but I prepare--it just doesn't happen
Zen Arado: why not just sit quietly and see what happens?
Qt Core: is it daydreaming if nothing is seen/felt?
Arisia Vita: welcome Eliza
Qt Core: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone
Graine Macbain: hello Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal listens in for a bit

Aphrodite Macbain: grins, hello Eliza

Zen Arado: Hi Eliza ;)

Zen Arado: daydreaming is going along with the thought stream
Zen Arado: meditating is noticing it and coming back

Aphrodite Macbain: to meditate, I very consciously take the time out of regular time and try and be still
Zen Arado: back to the breath or whatever
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza - how do you apply yr spiritual practices to your life?
Zen Arado: that's a description of what happens
Aphrodite Macbain: staying in the present takes work
Zen Arado: think I'll keep quiet...I can't explain this stuff
Eliza Madrigal: many ways, but I suppose being attentive to what I am doing in the moment, where I am.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, even if yr driving a car?
Calvino Rabeni: even if you're watching a TV series about vampires?
Eliza Madrigal: noticing what I notice... checking in with body... yes, definitely, I found recent driving with my kids very meditatative
Aphrodite Macbain raises a quizzical eyebrow at Cal
Eliza Madrigal: :) sure... though don't find myself doing that one often, hah
Eliza Madrigal: Mad Men has lots of tidbits... "a man is the room he is in"
Aphrodite Macbain: ummm can u say more Cal?
Zen Arado: concentrating on something is meditation then?
Aphrodite Macbain: it is one tool for meditation
Graine Macbain: true meditation has a certain physiological effect on the body
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Graine Macbain: just concentrating can be stressful
Graine Macbain: so that's not always meditation
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether you can concentrate and let go at the same time
Graine Macbain: that is the essence of Zen
Graine Macbain: if you can achieve it
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Graine Macbain: not to be attached to the outcome
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Graine Macbain: or the process for that matter
Calvino Rabeni: attached as in ... what exactly is attached?
Zen Arado: I read an article recently from a Zen practitioner who has meditated for 30 years...he says he now realizes that he doesn't know what meditation is...
Zen Arado: and I feel the same
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Graine Macbain: being anxious to have a result
Aphrodite Macbain: what exactly is attached?
Aphrodite Macbain: unable to let go of something...?
Graine Macbain: emotionally dependent
Arisia Vita: that could apply to love as well Zen
Eliza Madrigal: I feel like I am just about ready to begin learning ;-)
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: yes.
Graine Macbain: making it an ego thing
Aphrodite Macbain: loving is not needing; loving is wanting to give, cherishing without grasping Ari.
Arisia Vita: well said
Aphrodite Macbain: wish I could learn to do that
Calvino Rabeni: suppose the emotional "attachment" is apathy, vagueness, inability to engage rather than to let go ...?
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what the cause of apathy is? Fear of rejection?
Graine Macbain: "Grasping at things can only yield one of two results: Either the thing you are grasping at disappears, or you yourself disappear. It is only a matter of which occurs first." Goenka
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps we are attached to rejecting the world
Calvino Rabeni: could be, huh ?
Aphrodite Macbain: nice Graine
Aphrodite Macbain: it's a position we take
Graine Macbain: that is sort of Buddhism in a nutshell
Aphrodite Macbain: nods and smiles
Zen Arado: 'no self no problem'
Calvino Rabeni: like Boxy was trying to get at in his emails on the list .. what's the big deal with "dropping", does it become kind of a stereotyped idea?
Graine Macbain: dropping?
Calvino Rabeni: it was a bit of a challenge to the PaB ethos
Eliza Madrigal: yes it can... it can also be quite misunderstood
Eliza Madrigal: just like 'no self'

Miles of metaphors

Calvino Rabeni: Dropping as a code / slang word for a certain maneuver, that people have the idea that it leads to nonattachment .. but it may or may not
Aphrodite Macbain: Dropping is one way of meditating--it is a tool that's all
Zen Arado: analysing the pointing finger or using it as a technique instead of seeing what it points to..
Graine Macbain: I see
Calvino Rabeni: right
Eliza Madrigal: 'no self' in one person's understanding may be the same thing as an actualized self in another's
Graine Macbain: the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon :)
Eliza Madrigal: so there is some need to be open in listening and factoring where people come from
Zen Arado: that's the danger Graine
Graine Macbain: the map is not the territory
Calvino Rabeni: after having crossed the stream, the boat may also be left behind, etc.
Graine Macbain: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: metaphors--we are awash with them!

Zen Arado: but this sounds mumbo jumbo to some
Zen Arado: fuzzy nonsense
Zen Arado: so what to do?
Graine Macbain: another point to zen is to not over think
Graine Macbain: which we in the west are taught is actually a virtue
Calvino Rabeni: what to do Zen?
Zen Arado: 'thought is the enemy'
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps we should try to speak in real rather than abstract terms
Zen Arado: if people take pointers too literally
Calvino Rabeni: Nods to Aphro on that
Eliza Madrigal: Angelina Jolie has the answer on her tattoo: what nurtures me also destroys me
Eliza Madrigal: (giggles)
Zen Arado: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: sigh
Zen Arado: 'I tell Kyodo Roshi I want to take my practice to a deeper level. "Deeper level?" He laughs again. "What do you mean, 'deeper'? Zen practice only one level. No deep, understand?" —Lawrence Shainberg, Ambivalent Zen '
Eliza Madrigal is very high brow today

Graine Macbain: I'm afraid I have to run, everyone. Thank you all, it was very enjoyable.
Zen Arado: byee Grainne
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Graine, nice to see you here
Graine Macbain: Thank you Aphrodite :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Graine
Graine Macbain: bye all!
Arisia Vita: I too must fly
Arisia Vita: it's been great being with you all
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ari, you too
Arisia Vita: hope to see you all again soon
Zen Arado: (Irish spelling)
Graine Macbain: be well
Arisia Vita: be well and happy till then
Graine Macbain takes a humble bow
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye ari - always good to see you
Arisia Vita: and beyond... :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye cousin
Qt Core: byw asi, grannie
Zen Arado: byee Ari

Examining nature as spiritual practice.

Aphrodite Macbain: I can give you an example of how my own spiritual practice works: I get it though drawing the plant world. I am filled with wonder and joy at what is there

Eliza Madrigal: drawing is a marvelous attention practice Aph, I so admire that
Eliza Madrigal: find it hard
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: there's a book about that
Aphrodite Macbain: by looking at plants, my ego disappears (almost) and I am enclosed in another world
Aphrodite Macbain: a form of awe.
Aphrodite Macbain: I also get that hiking in the mountains.
Eliza Madrigal: and when you return are you refreshed, or happily exhausted?
Zen Arado: makes you look deeper
Aphrodite Macbain: for me THAT is spiritual
Zen Arado: artists have to look more at things
Aphrodite Macbain: oh very refreshed Eliza, and happier and not always exhasuted!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It's a good cure for sadness and depression
Zen Arado: just to be able to paint them
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zen.
Aphrodite Macbain: There is so much in nature that is marvelous - even the Higgs Boson particle!
Aphrodite Macbain: we don’t need to imagine a personal god

Eliza Madrigal: when sad/depressed the unfortunate thing is that it is harder to do the things that would help, that one knows will help
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, that's true Eliza
Qt Core: (angry too)
Eliza Madrigal: so have to sort of stored-up practices in our bodies I think... that will kick in...something like that
Eliza Madrigal: yes, nods qt
Aphrodite Macbain: you need to move out of the apathy that Cal talks about
Calvino Rabeni: I have a friend who has been writing / thinking about "spiritual" for years, and on a walk he said, something like, what Zen referred to about meditation - that is, what do we mean by spiritual, what do we want to mean, is there anything useful to say about it to people who think it is fuzzy-talk? Or to clarify it to ourselves?
Calvino Rabeni: So I said, um... er ...
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Calvino Rabeni: and put it down there in that place that carries koans around
Calvino Rabeni: where it lodged for the last couple weeks
Zen Arado: :)
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: the unanswerable questions...

Nothing

Zen Arado: 'I am, unfortunately, an experienced meditator. From the time I stumbled into an introduction to Transcendental Meditation in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, in 1970, through multiple eras (including my present fifteen-year-old Soto Zen practice), I've sat and stared at many walls (and mandalas and candles, and the inside of my eyelids) reveled in sundry bells-and-whistles mental experiences, gotten bored, decided I was going crazy, become enlightened (no, really!), and now I'm ready to share everything I've learned. It won't take long. In fact I can sum it up in one word: nothing.'
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Zen and thank you for sharing that
Eliza Madrigal: koan napsack... love that idea
Calvino Rabeni: But then after that did he say ... "I woulda done it differently"?
Zen Arado: off to Bert's meditation to find out nothing :)
Qt Core: bye Zen

Zen Arado: 'Not that "nothing" is to be sniffed at. For years—decades!—I thought there was something to learn, and that all those thousands of hours on the mat were cumulative, that the more I sat, the more aware and compassionate and wonderful I would become. In a world where the attainment of goals is seen as a virtue, thirty-eight years of realizing nothing didn't come easily or lightly.'
Calvino Rabeni: Here goes nothing!

Eliza Madrigal: isn't it time for your exhibition Aph?

Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza- my exhibition reception was from 11-noon today
Eliza Madrigal: ack! so sorry
Calvino Rabeni: It's still there though to be seen
Eliza Madrigal: not sure how I was turned around.... too many things in the air
Eliza Madrigal: is it the display we saw before?

Aphrodite Macbain: Ummm I don’t know Eliza. Botanical Illustration -in Melioria
Calvino Rabeni: Happen you to have a landmark for that exhibit site?
Eliza Madrigal: okay.. sorry about that... have let a few things slip lately but somehow was married to the idea of it following your session
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: no worries. I can show you one day
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: I can give you a private tour!

Aphrodite Macbain: I'd like to talk a lot more about what Cal said. Maybe we'll pick it up tonight!
Calvino Rabeni: I'll be there
Calvino Rabeni: sort of :)

Aphrodite Macbain: bye and thanks for beginning a fascinating conversation everyone
Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now :)
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you Cal, Qt
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: ty <3
Calvino Rabeni: Likewise .. :) be well :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Byee
Qt Core: bye all