The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Difficulty of explaining Nonduality:

Zen Arado: Hi Storm, Eliza :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Zen, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello :)
Zen Arado: they upgraded my internet connection
Zen Arado: getting 75000 kbits/s now
Eliza Madrigal: hey hey
Zen Arado: but sdon't see much dufference
Eliza Madrigal: maybe in speed of transitions
Zen Arado: my typing still bad :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Eliza Madrigal: just seeing your email, Zen.... do you think it is possible to discuss non-duality in this kind of forum, or 'at all'?
Zen Arado: I don't know Eliza
Zen Arado: but what can we discuss?
Eliza Madrigal: I think that would be interesting.... what would be your concise sort of 'definition'?
Zen Arado: I thought you meant it upsets people
Eliza Madrigal: nah, not worried about that :P
Zen Arado: or mystifies them
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I just wonder when you use the word if we/I understand where you are coming from/what you mean
Zen Arado: the last paragraph points to the difficulty of defining it
Zen Arado: 'The central challenge to understanding nonduality may be that it exists beyond language, because once it has been named, by definition -- and paradoxically -- a duality has been created. Even the statement “all things are one” creates a distinction between “one” and “not-one”! Hardly any wonder that nonduality has been misunderstood, particularly in the West.'
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce! :)
Zen Arado: so it is more experiential than explainable or definable
Zen Arado: Hi Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Eliza and Storm. Good afternoon, Zen.
Storm Nordwind smiles a welcome to BRuce
Bruce Mowbray: Absolutely, Zen. . . but I just posted an email to our group about reiterative empathy. . .
Zen Arado: have to get our time periods right :)
Bruce Mowbray: something that is experienced before langauge development in very young infants...
Eliza Madrigal: Kira time? :)
Zen Arado: interesting..
Bruce Mowbray: and a major factor in proprioception of "embodiment" -- not conceptually, but affectively.
Zen Arado: looks like a restart
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Zen Arado: we usually go to Kira Bruce ..hope you jin us
Bruce Mowbray: The Cafe?

There was a region restart at this point so we went to Kira Cafe:

Studying nonduality:

Zen (zen.arado): got away without restart last week
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Attempting to "study" non-duality through emperical "scientific" methods (as Boxy seems to demand of Pema) -- might be like trying to study the behavior of nocturnal mammals with a spotlight. . .
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Xirana :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Xirana :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good day, Xir!
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello everyone! ;)
Storm Nordwind: Hi!
Zen (zen.arado): so you are saying embodiment is necessary for empathy Bruce?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): If non-duality could be "known" or "accessed" or "experienced" conceptually, then all those spiritual books should have done the trick by now.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, Eliza.
Zen (zen.arado): did you read the email I just posted?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sorry -- Yes, Zen.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Not sure which one, Zen. Let me check again....
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ahh! Found it and am reading it now.
Zen (zen.arado): just another view on it
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Love this quote:
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): As quantum pioneer Niels Bohr once put it: 'A physicist is just an atom's way of looking at itself'
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The central challenge to understanding nonduality may be that it exists beyond language, because once it has been named, by definition -- and paradoxically -- a duality has been created. Even the statement “all things are one” creates a distinction between “one” and “not-one”! Hardly any wonder that nonduality has been misunderstood, particularly in the West."
Zen (zen.arado): our education and way of looking at things is very scientific wouldn't you say?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles @ Bruce and Bohr
Zen (zen.arado): objects 'out there' to be studied
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, it is -- because so much of it is language-based, and measurement-based... (lots of data -- with subjective experience dis-valued.)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): actually I think education is nearly militaristic in form
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): for the mainstream
Zen (zen.arado): it is also very powerful
Zen (zen.arado): I/m not putting it down as Alf seems to think
Zen (zen.arado): so why can't we use both?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): by militaristic I mean aimed at a certain end and interest... and so study can be selective, which is why it is important to look at the subject
Zen (zen.arado): I was thinkking that if we know more about 'how' we might also gain an understanding of 'why'
Zen (zen.arado): if we know enough 'how'
Zen (zen.arado): ?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): not sure...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): agree with the "how" exploration, Zen . . .
Zen (zen.arado): like if enough pieces of the jigsaw are there we see the picture?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): the "Why" may be a conceptual level of awareness that might come pater, after the "how".
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): later*

A personal exploration:

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Nay I give a personal example?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): May*
Zen (zen.arado): but...I don't think we will ever understand consciousness by looking at the physical brain
Zen (zen.arado): sure
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Although I have gone to New York about fourteen times in the past seven years,
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): every time I go, I have a harder and harder time...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): certain processes are reflecting in brain scans, which is really interesting
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I find myself in grief much of the time -- even though I go to have a "good time."
Zen (zen.arado): why Bruce?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): No, not Why? -- How!
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ah :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): grief?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The exploration of those affective embodied empathies...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): happens, for me, on a non-dual level.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Pre-conceptual.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, every day -- when I go to the city,
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I begin and end the day meditating at the Cathedral seven blocks north of the youth hostel where I always stay.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Restoring balance to my embodiemnt.
Zen (zen.arado): but you could also explore those feelings?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The re-iterative empathy systems have a major workout, for me, in the city.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Sure, I do explore those feelings -- as embodiments.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not as concepts.
Zen (zen.arado): there must be some subconscious cause?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): indeed.
Zen (zen.arado): oh yes
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): mirror neurons, etc etc etc.
Zen (zen.arado): the feelings
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But it is important for me to "deal" with that on a body-level...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not just with statistics about un-employment and homelessness, etc.
Zen (zen.arado): but below the feelings maybe some destructive thoughts or memories?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Similar to the "Dust over India" predicament.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, of course -- there no doubt ARE a lot of destructive thoughts/memories...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "How" then to explore them?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): How to integrate them?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): How to balance them?
Zen (zen.arado): not turning away and allow them to surface?
Zen (zen.arado): think we use avoidance
Zen (zen.arado): withour realizing it
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, FIRST by coming to some understanding of "how" they came to be. . . and for me, this can best be done through the body.
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me shuts up and hopes to hear others' experience.
Zen (zen.arado): vipassana meditation
Zen (zen.arado): listens as well
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): /me listens too :-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders: If I could be with these four people in an embodied way (not just through my avi) then I would have more potential for reiterative empathy.
Zen (zen.arado): yes...why is that though?
Zen (zen.arado): body language?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): probably non-verbal bodily clues -- that the mirror neurons pick up on?
Storm Nordwind: aura?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, body "language" although that seems like an oxymoron to me.
Zen (zen.arado): something unconscious?
Zen (zen.arado): people have a presence
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, at the level of "how" I am referring to here, it would first be unconcious, Zen.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): unconscious*
Storm Nordwind: A good public speaker relies on being sensitive to that presence, consciously or not
Zen (zen.arado): a demeanour
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens again.
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): a teacher sees it
Storm Nordwind: One feels it with every pore of one's body
Zen (zen.arado): sesse it
Zen (zen.arado): sense
Zen (zen.arado): an empathy
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So layers and layers of defensive "filters" and "shields" get built up to protect our vulnerability to these un-conscious inputs?
Zen (zen.arado): not necessarily shields I think
Storm Nordwind: It's a survival mechanism, with upsides and downsides.
Zen (zen.arado): just usual ways of resp0nding
Zen (zen.arado): too
Zen (zen.arado): are we such creatures of habit?

Militaristic education:

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Eliza referred to the normal educational systems as "militaristic."
Storm Nordwind: When I learned to heal, 40 years ago, I became so open and sensitive that I was in pain much of the time resonating to the ailments of others.
Zen (zen.arado): yes good point Eliza
Storm Nordwind: The first thing I had to learn was to proect myself
Storm Nordwind: And that meant resurrecting the barrier
Storm Nordwind: but at will
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Are we training our children to "defend" themselves in schools. . . . and calling that "education"?
Storm Nordwind: and to take it down at will too
Zen (zen.arado): yes open is vulnerable too
Zen (zen.arado): or it is a regime
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well we certainly don't aim at greater openness/sensitivity and bundaries to protect 'that', I feel
Zen (zen.arado): strict time based schedules
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): uniforms...?
Zen (zen.arado): 'we have ways of making you learn'
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): punishments. . . ?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hehe
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): And if you don't pass the standarized test. . .
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): designed by the state....
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I read an interesting article yesterday, about someone reexamining their relationship to time... that he was abdicate responsibility for many things personally, by saying "time made me do it"
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): *abdicating
Zen (zen.arado): or 'I didn't have time?'
Zen (zen.arado): Hi San :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Who was it that said The Britisn Empire was learned on the playing fields at Eton? (Eton is a prep-school very near Winsor Castle.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): for instance, if he was late to a meeting, or didn't call someone, rather than saying what his priorities were that caused the gap, he would defer to time
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi San
San (santoshima): good morning
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I must go now.... have a nice day all! :-) (Hi and bye San!! :-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good morning, San!
Zen (zen.arado): still that way unfortunately ;)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Bye Xiri :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye!
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye bye:)
Zen (zen.arado): byee Xiri
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): G'day, Xir!
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): he didn't change his attempts to be on time, but he just began noticing how often he would hide behind it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and also noticed cultural differences in this regard
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): to be more open
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I said "learned" -- but I think the more accurate quote would say "conquered..." on the playing fields at Eton.

Time and priorities:

Storm Nordwind: When someone says Too Busy and Not Having Enough Time, these are just code words for "I don't currently rank you or your event a priority at the moment."
San (santoshima): yes
Zen (zen.arado): could be Storm
Storm Nordwind: Definitely
Zen (zen.arado): we have time for what we want to do
San (santoshima): yup
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): exactly, Storm -- but there are so many "priorities" vying for our time-slots.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): especiall in SL.
Storm Nordwind: If you rank high enough as a priority, relative to other things, they make the time
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, to a large extent, and it is a mutual conditioning thing ... that we fear to tell others the reasons, that they won't listen perhaps... they also are 'too busy' after all
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have to ask SL friends to send me chat-logs of sessions I cannot attend because I have other "priorities..."
Storm Nordwind: People don't like to hear "I don't rate you important enough right now"
Zen (zen.arado): so hard to express SL priority to someone in RL
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) well, but there are some other ways to say that maybe, haha
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "I've commited to gving time to ___ today"
Zen (zen.arado): Original Face meeting gives me lots of priority problems
Zen (zen.arado): because it is 2 hours long
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but you value it so you move things around it?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): me too, Zen...
Zen (zen.arado): people don't see how you can meditate for 2 hours
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but I always turn off my rl phone for Original Face...
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and tell everyone not to call me or IM me.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes... so it is close to center for you...
Zen (zen.arado): yes...important to me
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, for two hours, it actually becomes "center" for me.
San (santoshima): me too
Zen (zen.arado): but especially in RL difficult to explain that priority
Zen (zen.arado): 'but it's just a game'
Zen (zen.arado): they say
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but someone to stops to hear how/why it is meaningful to you would likely support you in that time
Zen (zen.arado): even then they don't 'get; SL
Storm Nordwind: SL is just a game? Or these meetings are just a game?
Zen (zen.arado): if they don't come in here
Second Life: Ari (arisia.vita) is online.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): After three years in SL, I still have not a single friend in RL who is the slightest bit interested in SL. . . Most of them disparage it (all except for my prison inmate friend -- who has NEVER even used the Internet, and he is absolutely fascinated by SL and wants me to send him transcripts of chats.)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): first impressions are hard to shake for people
Storm Nordwind: An SL meeting is just like a phone meeting. They wouldn't dream of interrupting you during one, and they wouldn't say the phone was just a game
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): right Storm
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Am reading an excellent book by a contemplative computer scientist: "The Digitally Divided Self."
Zen (zen.arado): interesting Bruce

'Coming of Age in Second Life' book:

Zen (zen.arado): there was a guy who wrote a book about SL at a meeting I attended last night
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, it was recommended by GreatHeart last Saturday at our session discussing spiritual experience in RL and in SL.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (sorry - above to=who stops to hear)*
Zen (zen.arado): a Virtual Ability meting
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): please say more, Zen.
Zen (zen.arado): book called 'Coming of Age in Second Life'
Zen (zen.arado): he is an anthropologist
Zen (zen.arado): so he treated SL like an anthropological study of the inhabitants
Zen (zen.arado): I read some of it but never finished it
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Whoa! what a fascinating exploration that could be. . .
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): SL is rich ground in this regard... I am biased but I wish for many people to study it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): think the 'gaming' impression might be less impenetrable if that happened
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have two similar books: "ethnographic studies" of SL -- and how "ethics" emerges naturally from SL interactions.
Storm Nordwind: There are many sociologists and anthropologists already studying in SL
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Storm.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there were ethnography classes in Thothica... wonder if he was one of those teaching that...
Storm Nordwind: But it is like studying the Earth. It is so vast, you need to narrow your focus to make it doable!
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there is an importance of ethics aorund it being discussed
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): because trained Sociologists and Anthropologists have layers and layes of due dilligence
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods Storm
Zen (zen.arado): http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Second-...in+second+life
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thomas M. Malaby (Associate Prof of Anthropology at Univer. Wisconsin) wrote "Making of Virtual Worlds - Linden Lab and Second Life" -- (an anthropological study...)
Storm Nordwind: Hands up here who HASN'T been interviewed yet by one of these people! ;-))
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have not.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me wonders if she is one of these people...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me laughs
Storm Nordwind: /me chuckles
Storm Nordwind: You will Bruce. Unless you hide your avatar under a stone
San (santoshima): have not
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Storm Nordwind: (Which can be arranged if you insist ;)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Oh -- Then I was interviewed and didn't realize it?
Storm Nordwind: /me chuckles
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me assists a researcher and often does interviews
Zen (zen.arado): SL changes fast
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Eliza did interview me once. . .
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): an excellent session for me, that one.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it isn't necessary for you to say, Bruce, but it was wonderful yes...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): caused me to do a lot of thinking about my SL involvements...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I hope Eliza enjoyed that as much as I did.
Storm Nordwind: People doing this "properly" have to go through a disclosure beforehand. But I have little doubt there are others who don't and who just gather data
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): confidential and specialized topic wise
Zen (zen.arado): we study ourselves
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): have thought a lot about it Bruce, yes
Zen (zen.arado): ;study the self to forget the sself'
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes Storm
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that makes it harder for those who do follow all the protocols
Storm Nordwind: Yes it does :(
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so I think the reputation of the main researcher is important
Zen (zen.arado): some seem vwery ary of being studied
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): if they disclose who they are, etc
Zen (zen.arado): very wary
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, understandable....
Storm Nordwind: Rightly so Zen
Zen (zen.arado): then I wonder...what is the danger?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): http://www.amazon.com/The-Digitally-.../dp/8897233007
Storm Nordwind: But for lots of different reasons
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): actually, this matter of looking at the subject seems important here too... those wary are asking 'how does it color the listening if I am an 'object' of study too"
Zen (zen.arado): nothig is impartial is it?
Storm Nordwind: Some reasons: don't want interefernce with planned time; don't want to have to eexplain to others; don't like intrusion' prefer privacy; have learned to cope by not looking at self... etc etc
Zen (zen.arado): bit like quanrtum physics
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I'd love to hear more sometime, Bruce, about how it brought up examination of time online
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): indeed Zen
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so the bias has to be factored... a good researcher factors their own views.. has them open I think
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sure, Eliza. . . (later, I hope).
Zen (zen.arado): even age and gender of interviewer are fctors
Zen (zen.arado): big factors
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, context
Storm Nordwind: yes
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Another personal question...?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me listens
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Zena and I have recently both made significant changes in our avi's.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Zen*
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): How this affected your SL experience in any ways, Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): he he
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I mena, especially, your own experience of yourself in SL... not just how others view you.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): mean*
Zen (zen.arado): I didn't see it that significant
Zen (zen.arado): just another step getting closer to RL me
Zen (zen.arado): in hair
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): kk. Thanks.
Zen (zen.arado): but not sure why I need to be like RL me
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me chuckles to himself -- because he gave Bruce a haircut the same day he gave his typist one.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (coller in the summer).
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe less distance between SL/RL?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): cooler*
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles @ Bruce
Zen (zen.arado): hmm maybe
Storm Nordwind: /me would have to do substantial avatar rework to even come close to his RL form... like lose 10 inches for a start (height, not girth!)
Zen (zen.arado): see SL as augmentation I guess
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :))
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): If I find something when out shopping that looks similar to something Eliza would wear there is this funny process
Zen (zen.arado): yeh a counter influence on RL too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (typist breaking wall)
Storm Nordwind: What is this "shopping" thing I hear people talking about?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me laughs
Zen (zen.arado): Zen influencing me
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, Eliza. . . I realized while telling about a dream yesterday (right here in Maxine's session) that the setting of my RL dream was an SL sim.
Storm Nordwind: My wife and I counted the number of times we've been shopping in the last three years (non-grocery), and we weren't sure whether we needed the fingers of one hand or two.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you hadn't seen that at first Bruce?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well that is because you two just coo at one another all day Storm :P
Storm Nordwind: haha - true!
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Nope -- only realized it when trying to "place" the setting for the dream.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and trying to explain that to Mxine's group.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I totally get that!
Second Life: Jeff Hema is offline.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I dreamed of sitting on one of these sofas with Wol, agatha and fael... it felt so real
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): fael told me if I wore long johns, I could stay in SL longer
Storm Nordwind: Immersion is immersion, wherever the world
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): In other words, my unconscious mind seems to be increasing affected by SL experience...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): does this concern you Bruce?
Zen (zen.arado): it's bound to happen really
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, somewhat -- especially now that I am reading the Digitally Divided Self.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that seems healthy, to continually examine
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): have check ups :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): indeed, Eliza.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I get off balance at times too
Storm Nordwind: It's very common. People who are fans of a particular reading genre - SF, Austen, lots of possibilities - find they are influenced like that. For much of the time they are inhabiting another world. Not surprising really.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): but goes both ways

Downton Abbey:

Zen (zen.arado): I found a strange post on FB this morning
Zen (zen.arado): a guy complained that Downton Abbey waas not critical of JIngoism
Zen (zen.arado): ;)
Storm Nordwind: ha!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wow.
Zen (zen.arado): I told him it was fictional not a historical anlysis
Zen (zen.arado): and people were jingoistic at the time
Zen (zen.arado): ;)
Storm Nordwind: Exactly so
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me feels left out of loop
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hah
Zen (zen.arado): sorry
Storm Nordwind: Let's purify our art forms with a 21st century morality scrubbing brush
Zen (zen.arado): its just a British historical drama
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I could look it up.... I have a picture of dingos in my head...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I do know Downtown Alley a bit...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The fact that the wife of the owner of Downton was American....?
Zen (zen.arado): I have never watched it I admit
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Abbey, lol
Storm Nordwind: My wife loved it
Zen (zen.arado): it's very popular
Storm Nordwind: Has the book too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Ari :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I've watched the enitre series (both years) and have it all on DVD's.
Ari (arisia.vita): Hi all, so good to see you again
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Ari ;)
Storm Nordwind: Welcome Ari!
San (santoshima): hi Ari :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Ari!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Welcome!
Second Life: Anna (annabelledeanne) is online.
Zen (zen.arado): people get immersed in thse dramas
Zen (zen.arado): like SL
Zen (zen.arado): maybe gets too real
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) seems why it is important to step out of them from time to time
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): theaters inside of theaters inside of theaters. . .
Storm Nordwind: :)
Zen (zen.arado): 'humankind cannot bear much reality'
Ari (arisia.vita): so they hide in fantasy and illusion...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The world is not just a stage and we but players; the world is a whole conflation of stages.
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or conflagration?
Zen (zen.arado): RL just a big dream too
San (santoshima): stage left for me ... time for work ... so interesting, today's chat ~ thank you
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): tend to 'center' seems less about whether that is found virtually or not, than about ability to attend ... alignment with values
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye San, thanks
Zen (zen.arado): byee San Ty for coming
Storm Nordwind: Anyone who has visited dreary Antwerp will know why the Belgians make such, good ice cream, beer and chocolate!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thanks for being here.
Zen (zen.arado): to be or not to be virtually
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders Eliza' statement about "centering" in SL....
Zen (zen.arado): ?
Ari (arisia.vita): ?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I remember a while back you had an SL retreat Bruce... spoke about it in PaB...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): tend to 'center' seems less about whether that is found virtually or not, than about ability to attend ... alignment with values
Ari (arisia.vita): /me leans over and whispers in her ear... "what did you say?" :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmm. An SL retreat. . .
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): that's been over a year ago, Eliza.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, I've made 'controversial' choices, myself, in the years that I've been in SL... to spend time here and it has been quite valuable... but hard when it isn't understood
Zen (zen.arado): last one over a year ago
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (unless I am forgetting something) . . .
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ah, really?
Zen (zen.arado): think so
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you mentioned turning off your RL phone... guess it was an experiment
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeppers. How time flies where you're being present!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Oh that!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): That was about a year ago, yes...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But it was in RL -- not in SL, ELiza.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): And only about two months ago.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) Ari, earlier we were talking a bit about 'center' time... time that other things have to fit around
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I misunderstood what you meant.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ohhh, okay
Ari (arisia.vita): ty
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I deliberately did a RL retreat -- for about a week, in fact.. and had my phone turned off the whole time. yes.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): great
Zen (zen.arado): that's difficult
Zen (zen.arado): I did a weekend one time
Zen (zen.arado): just sat all ady in my apartment
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Zen does retreats in real Zen centers - monastic communities.
Zen (zen.arado): it's much easier in a group
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (also in his apartment).
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I need to do this... my input has greatly exceeding sitting time lately :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): study, discussion, etc
Zen (zen.arado): a lot to be said for silence
Ari (arisia.vita): There must be a willingness, an acquiescence, a desire. If you do not take the time to examine your own subjective states, then you cannot complain if so many answers seem to elude you. Seth Speaks, Session 591
Second Life: Miralee Munro is offline.
Zen (zen.arado): yes Ari
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ah, nice
Second Life: druth Vlodovic is online.
Zen (zen.arado): silence is foreign to us these days
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): examining our own subjective states was one of our topics during this PaB session, Ar.
Ari (arisia.vita): Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted. Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world. - Hans Margolius
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): the mud settles
Ari (arisia.vita): the mind clears
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "and this full clarity is without inner and outer"
Storm Nordwind: A quiet mind is something you can always carry with you.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (song of enlightenment) bringing back the early non-duality thread :)
Zen (zen.arado): it can spill over from daily meditation
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me "drops" to body to quiet mind -- but sometimes "muddy waters" there, too.
Storm Nordwind: Over time with being quiet, a few years maybe, the mud drops away
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes. . . and such is the "purpose" of retreat, for me.
Zen (zen.arado): has run out of metaphors :)
Storm Nordwind: /me chuckles
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Ari (arisia.vita): Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in
 silence.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles
Zen (zen.arado): nice Ari
Ari (arisia.vita): I am a master of silence...but still so much to learn
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thanks friends :) Thanks for hosting Zen :))
Ari (arisia.vita): ty all
Zen (zen.arado): thanks all
Ari (arisia.vita): it was great being with you
Ari (arisia.vita): be well and happy
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you too Ari
Zen (zen.arado): ty for coming ;)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): An excellent session. Thanks ewveryone. I wish you could have been with us from the beginning, Ari.
Ari (arisia.vita): me too!
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): be well everyone :)
Storm Nordwind: Thank you friends :)
Zen (zen.arado): byee
Ari (arisia.vita): bye