The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: From yesterday's session at this time:
Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: perhaps continue with "quality" with an extra eye out for the inner/outer distinction?
Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: okay, for the next three days: quality and inner/outer -- and let's see what we come up with!
Eos Amaterasu: Hi druth!
druth Vlodovic: shhh :)
Eos Amaterasu: ()
druth Vlodovic: whales
Eos Amaterasu: you hear whales?
druth Vlodovic: you don't?
Eos Amaterasu listens
Eos Amaterasu: what do the whales sound like?
druth Vlodovic: the sim is playing music with whales in it :)
druth Vlodovic: and crashing waves
Eos Amaterasu: oh.... I'm probably not receiving that music
Eos Amaterasu: we are in different worlds, druth
druth Vlodovic: perhaps I should try to sing it for you :)
Eos Amaterasu: there are the sounds of birds here, lots
druth Vlodovic: what would I find in eos' world?
Eos Amaterasu: the sun just beginning to shine....
Eos Amaterasu: hi Storm
druth Vlodovic: storm approaching
Eos Amaterasu: do you hear whales?
Storm Nordwind: Hello friends :)
Storm Nordwind: Hmm... connection a little flaky... may try to relog
druth Vlodovic: no, that's just me

druth Vlodovic: what is the topic this week?
Eos Amaterasu: I grew up with the album "Songs of the Humpback Whale"
Eos Amaterasu: [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: From yesterday's session at this time: [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: perhaps continue with "quality" with an extra eye out for the inner/outer distinction? [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: okay, for the next three days: quality and inner/outer -- and let's see what we come up with!
Eos Amaterasu: wb Storm
druth Vlodovic: and have you come up with anything?
Eos Amaterasu: druth asked what topic for week was
Eos Amaterasu: [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: From yesterday's session at this time: [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: perhaps continue with "quality" with an extra eye out for the inner/outer distinction? [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: okay, for the next three days: quality and inner/outer -- and let's see what we come up with!
druth Vlodovic: and now you'll have to do it again for luci :)
Lucinda Lavender: ?
Eos Amaterasu: How about for each new person the previous one summarizes the topic? :-)
Eos Amaterasu: hi luci
Storm Nordwind: Sorry my connection is poor. Au revoir!
Lucinda Lavender: whispering hello to all
Eos Amaterasu: topic: quality, experience of just the quality of things
Eos Amaterasu: plus the inner/outer thingy
druth Vlodovic: lol
Lucinda Lavender: :))
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Lucinda Lavender: can anyone say more about what quailty is to their way of thinking...
Eos Amaterasu: which is related to dropping.... so you pay attention to what you directly experience, more than thoughts or conceptions
Lucinda Lavender: their
Eos Amaterasu: I liked the rosiness of the rose, from a few nights ago

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: (now we report on what we experienced in the last 90 seconds)
Eos Amaterasu: *labnotes
Lucinda Lavender: my personal experience right now is one of frozen distance between myself and another...breathing through that experience as 90 sec goes by...frozen is what I am seeing. and yet too reading behaviour
Lucinda Lavender: one reads a book the other the computer
Lucinda Lavender: Luci was looking across the room in RL
Lucinda Lavender: someone else?
Eos Amaterasu: Luci SL's personal experience of Luci RL's?
Lucinda Lavender: yes

druth Vlodovic: I was petting a cat, who doesn't like me taking time out to type :)
Eos Amaterasu: Interesting.... SL can give us a kind of distance which enables observing
Eos Amaterasu can just see where the cat is heading next....
druth Vlodovic: he thinks that all my attention should be on the important things
Lucinda Lavender: yes especially when a set period of time is delineated
Eos Amaterasu: Ah, so setting a boundary of time helps
Lucinda Lavender: yes it does for me...a window to look through
Eos Amaterasu: cat and druth intersubjectivities
Lucinda Lavender: but I am also aware that what is seen is a story I am making up
Eos Amaterasu: RL Luci making it up?
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Lucinda Lavender: in part
Lucinda Lavender: my house seems taken over by fear and grumpiness at the moment
Eos Amaterasu: hmm
Lucinda Lavender: but...I am trying to let that dissolve into another moment]
Eos Amaterasu: let SL Luci see that
druth Vlodovic: fear?
Eos Amaterasu: there's being taken over by fear, there is seeing that.....
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Eos Amaterasu: it's interesting that SL gives us some extra latitude which helps seeing
Lucinda Lavender: jobs that end and the emptiness that ensues..so true Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, sounds like close to the earth
Lucinda Lavender: yes...and so many ways to look out
Eos Amaterasu: which maybe reminds of the outside/inside aspect of the quality theme....
Lucinda Lavender: but...back to cats and all...we pet the cat...
Eos Amaterasu: interbeing
Eos Amaterasu: hi sam!
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Eos, Luci, Druth
Lucinda Lavender: hi sam!
druth Vlodovic: evening samud
Eos Amaterasu: Sam, we started with:
Eos Amaterasu: [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: From yesterday's session at this time: [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: perhaps continue with "quality" with an extra eye out for the inner/outer distinction? [19:00] Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: okay, for the next three days: quality and inner/outer -- and let's see what we come up with!
oO0Oo Resident: "Time dilation" being what it is... may be spotty for me... ::: shrugs ::: (ty Eos!)

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: (experience reports?)
Eos Amaterasu: I'm having an electric experience, there being a lightning storm happening right now
Eos Amaterasu: (in RL)
Eos Amaterasu: Samúð, were you referring to Storm's description of SL lag as time dilation?
oO0Oo Resident: Yes
Lucinda Lavender: sounds exciting in RL Eos
oO0Oo Resident: Actually it is the local network here that is problematic.. so.. wrestling with that a bit
Eos Amaterasu: those time dilators are spreading like viruses...
stevenaia Michinaga: does that extend our 90 second?
stevenaia Michinaga: s
Lucinda Lavender: hi steveniaa
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Eos Amaterasu: entire lifetimes can take place in 90 seconds
Lucinda Lavender: HI Stevenaia
Lucinda Lavender: so with quality we are looking at what is seen ?
Eos Amaterasu: Well, how did you experience that this last time around?
druth Vlodovic: lol, a bit recursive luci
oO0Oo Resident: I think Luci is just trying to understand.. get some clarification.
druth Vlodovic: it isn't a qualia until it is seen, is all I meant
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, something like looking at what is shown, and letting it be beyond however we want it to stay or go
Eos Amaterasu: staying in the sweet spot of "there's nothing you can see that isn't shown"
Lucinda Lavender: ok druth getting that
druth Vlodovic: I've been assuming that the observer is part of the observation, seeing the object is our last investigation, no?
druth Vlodovic: I see many things that are shown only to myself by myself
Lucinda Lavender: :)
druth Vlodovic: which would make your statement correct in a way eos :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi alfred!
druth Vlodovic: a cardboard pirate in the water, how tragic
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Alfred!
Alfred Kelberry: eos, just replied to you :)
Eos Amaterasu: oh...
stevenaia Michinaga: waves

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: i made a suggestion to pema in my reply to you. feel kind of exciting if he will accept and it will work out.
Eos Amaterasu: Will take a look, boxy!
Eos Amaterasu: any experience reports? we didn't frame a precise approach, but in general re qualia and inside/outside?
stevenaia Michinaga: RL calls, sorry
Alfred Kelberry: you asking me? no, i'm out of the loop on this one
Alfred Kelberry: also, pema said qualia != quality :)
druth Vlodovic: best not to read too much into definitions
druth Vlodovic: that just turns investigation into obfuscation
Alfred Kelberry: i disagree. i think definitions give us a shared understanding.
Eos Amaterasu: yeah, I couldn't quite remember what the original term was: "qualia" does have all kinds of baggage
druth Vlodovic: they can do both
druth Vlodovic: I think he is looking for something between the observer and the object
druth Vlodovic: but all I see there is a relationship
Alfred Kelberry: if we knew both of these terms, we would not interchange them and mislead those who do know the difference.
Eos Amaterasu: the interesting thing is that you can recognize how you're holding yourself through certain concepts, but it's very subtle to discover those
Eos Amaterasu: (whoa, big flash of lightning!)
druth Vlodovic: and if we used them loosely those who thought they knew the terms would not confuse themselves :)
druth Vlodovic: ever hear a philosophy discussion on the definition of words?
druth Vlodovic: ah, we might lose our host?
Eos Amaterasu cringes
Alfred Kelberry: druth, it sounds like a cop-out argument to me :)
druth Vlodovic: I wish to cop out of heated and circular arguments tending back a thousand years
Eos Amaterasu: wb, luci
Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: perhaps continue with "quality" with an extra eye out for the inner/outer distinction?
druth Vlodovic: maybe better to invent a word
druth Vlodovic: repurposing words is common in english, but philosophers don't understand so well :)
Alfred Kelberry: eos: re intersubjectivity in exploring dropping... do you think that it is harder to grasp within oneself rather than "self and the other" framework?
druth Vlodovic: it is very delicate
druth Vlodovic: observer effect can ruin and observation
Eos Amaterasu: probably the two directions can help each other
druth Vlodovic: and effort is counterproductive
Eos Amaterasu: but I tend to think that you have to clear your own lens first a bit
Alfred Kelberry: druth, how is an effort counterproductive?
Eos Amaterasu: and then find others who are doing likewise
Alfred Kelberry: eos, clear the lens? how do you do that?
druth Vlodovic: observing is an active action, requiring mental resources
Eos Amaterasu: that's the question....
druth Vlodovic: which changes what you are doing
Eos Amaterasu: I think it starts with coming back to being able to be with yourself
druth Vlodovic: and this change is effected on the subject matter at hand
Eos Amaterasu: so you don't jiggle yourself so much
Eos Amaterasu: jiggling causes blurry vision
Alfred Kelberry: eos, what is jiggling yourself?
Eos Amaterasu: all the darting perceptual and thought movements
Lucinda Lavender: Luci wonders if clearing the lens happens after one learns they can respond from outside of roles like...mother, wife, teacher, daughter etc
Alfred Kelberry: eos, i think usage of many metaphors complicate things
Eos Amaterasu: hm, yes, the lens sees them all....
Eos Amaterasu confesses he's a highly analogous person
Alfred Kelberry: when it's for backing a concept, it's good, but when you explain one metaphor with another in a circular fashion it's... not productive :)
Lucinda Lavender: :))
druth Vlodovic: ah, duty calls
druth Vlodovic: have fun all
Lucinda Lavender: yo too druth
Lucinda Lavender: you

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: well, one observation is "there is jitter in my perceptual apparatus"
Eos Amaterasu: it's like preparing a mirror for the Mt Wilson telescope
Eos Amaterasu: you want to make it see things as sharply and clearly and undistortedly as possible
Alfred Kelberry: i also think we should have an understanding of what we advise before we do that. you said "you have to clear your own lens first", but had trouble explaining what it means yourself.
Eos Amaterasu: so it takes years to make, exquisite attention to curvature
Eos Amaterasu: that's the analogy
Eos Amaterasu: and the question is how to apply that to the instrument that is your own mind
Alfred Kelberry: yes, that's a good start
Alfred Kelberry: i don't know :)
Alfred Kelberry: pema would have a few recipes, i think :)
Eos Amaterasu: just knowing or realizing that that is a possibility, or an issue, is something!
Alfred Kelberry: yes
Eos Amaterasu: Anway, I must say good night - thanks Boxy, have looked quickly at your email...
Eos Amaterasu: bye and thanks, Luci
Eos Amaterasu: to be continued....
Lucinda Lavender: thanks eos
Alfred Kelberry: hmm, btw... i just thought. do you think that pab's tendency to metaphorize things is a product of intersubjective approach to exploration?
Alfred Kelberry: er... gone :)
Lucinda Lavender: alfred...can you describe the inter subjective approach?
Alfred Kelberry: er, i can try :)
Lucinda Lavender: I am glad to try to get my understanding in gear...
Alfred Kelberry: it's basically a tool that allows you to see an object subjectively with applicaiton of empathy
Lucinda Lavender: hi san:)
Santoshima Resident: hi luci, hi alfred
Alfred Kelberry: with the goal of being not as separate observer to an object, but having a shared experience with it as a subject
Alfred Kelberry: hence, intersubjective
Alfred Kelberry: hi, san :)
Lucinda Lavender: thank you alfred
Alfred Kelberry: i think it's what pema and pab employ in their explorations
Lucinda Lavender: I will ponder that...I have to go I guess for 30 minutes or so.
Alfred Kelberry: yes, me too
Alfred Kelberry: nice to see you folks
Alfred Kelberry: be well :)
Lucinda Lavender: thanks Alfred