2008.10.10 01:00 - Crime and punishment

Wol Euler was guardian and know-it-all for this session.

Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
Wol Euler: morning fael
Fael Illyar: How are you this morning?
Wol Euler: tired. I was up until 1:30 dancing with corvi.
Fael Illyar: Oh, that's late
Wol Euler shakes her head. Enjoyable, but silly. I will suffer for it today.
Fael Illyar: of course :)
Wol Euler: anyway.
Wol Euler: and yourself?
Fael Illyar wondered if you were going to sit down.
Wol Euler laughs
Fael Illyar: I slept well ... although my old habit of not getting up the first time my eyes open seems to be back.
Wol Euler: :-)
Fael Illyar: been years since I last had that for a few days
Wol Euler: as I get older (coughs) I tend more and more to let my body do what it wants, on the theory that it probably knows what it needs.
Fael Illyar: not probably, it does
Fael Illyar: :)
Wol Euler nods and smiles.
Wol Euler: best thing then to do is to get out of its way.
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Fael Illyar: it's just I'm uncertain which things are self and which are natural :)
Fael Illyar: ... sometimes
Wol Euler: "self" is unnatural?
Fael Illyar: it's an artificial construct in some ways. Taught fixed patterns.
Wol Euler: yes, I was being contentious :-)
Fael Illyar: although, I'm not ruling out the possibility of a self that's not that artificial.
Wol Euler: can we perhaps xplore these two ideas for a moment.
Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
Wol Euler: it seems to me that there is a dichotomy suggested in modern thought
Wol Euler: hello gaya
Fael Illyar: hmmh, time to test how my laptop handles moving about :)
Wol Euler: natural = good, artificial = bad
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: (talking about "self", Gaya,
Wol Euler: phone brb
Gaya Ethaniel: sure
Fael Illyar: ah, crap, my SL connection is through this wire I have plugged in
Fael Illyar: not the wireless
Gaya Ethaniel: haven't set up wireless yet?
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: it's set up but wireless is direct internet. the wire is local network that goes through a router.
Fael Illyar: different address spaces so won't move smoothly from one to the other
Gaya Ethaniel: well... mm... ok just can't understand why you have to wire your laptop
Fael Illyar: I don't, I just wanted to test the wire thing works as well earlier so I plugged it in
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok
Gaya Ethaniel: good idea that in fact
Gaya Ethaniel: (not all places I stayed over had wireless Internet access overseeas)
Wol Euler: back
Gaya Ethaniel: wb
Wol Euler: ty
Fael Illyar: wb Wol :)
Fael Illyar: well, I'll be semi-afk, making sandwiches
Wol Euler: eheheh
Gaya Ethaniel: sure
Wol Euler: yes, you might consider taking a 5m ehternet cable with you just in case :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: [1:09] Wol Euler: natural = good, artificial = bad - please say more Wol?
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: a very PaBish topic :-)
Wol Euler: that arose from a discussion of sleep and body
Gaya Ethaniel: sleep?
Faenik: could be
Wol Euler: [1:05] Fael Illyar: it's just I'm uncertain which things are self and which are natural :)
Wol Euler: suggesting that self is not natural.
Wol Euler: that ties in with much of modern pseudo-thought (advertising, movies, tv ...)
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Wol Euler: that "natural" is what we are not, and is good.
Gaya Ethaniel: mm... that "natural" we are afraid to show to others?
Gaya Ethaniel: or something else entirely different
Wol Euler: Came from Fael's reply: [1:05] Fael Illyar: it's just I'm uncertain which things are self and which are natural :) [1:05] Fael Illyar: ... sometimes [1:06] Wol Euler: "self" is unnatural? [1:06] Fael Illyar: it's an artificial construct in some ways. Taught fixed patterns.
Fael Illyar: yes, the natural we're afraid to show
Gaya Ethaniel ponders again
Wol Euler: ah, another level.
Fael Illyar: the patterns we're taught are fear-based ones, mostly
Gaya Ethaniel: feels we are talking about some complex layers of 'self' here...
Wol Euler: yes, the discussion seems to be branching. Self as in "by choice" as opposed to "by bodily nature"
Wol Euler: or self as "artificially constructed", as opposed to --- what?
Wol Euler: childlike innoncence?
Wol Euler: Adam in paradise?
Gaya Ethaniel: a part of Being or Being?
Gaya Ethaniel: let's start with one of these?

Chains, real and imaginary. 

Fael Illyar: well, at least to me, self is in many ways similar to chains
Fael Illyar: shackles
Wol Euler: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... Buddhist meaning of self then
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: when you've been shackled and shackled all your life, you stop seeing them as shackles.
Fael Illyar: even afraid to see them go
Wol Euler nods
Fael Illyar: true with even real shackles
Wol Euler nods again
Gaya Ethaniel: why?
Fael Illyar: because, they're part of what you're used to. usual, safe, you know how to deal with them being there.
Fael Illyar: familiar
Gaya Ethaniel: we define ourselves too much with the shackles?
Gaya Ethaniel: so fear of unknown then
Wol Euler: we define ourselfs perhaps too readily with what we are used to.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Fael Illyar: fear of unknown ... another shackle.
Wol Euler: "I am what I have always done" even though it never really satisfid me
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: so how does related back to you not getting up when awoke Fael?
Fael Illyar: I was wondering if my staying in bed was self or natural.
Gaya Ethaniel: (bad English again... making some tea brb)
Wol Euler raises her cup in salute
Fael Illyar realizes the lack of hot drink and heads back to kitchen.
Wol Euler laughs
Fael Illyar is back.
Gaya Ethaniel: wb
Wol Euler: wb
Gaya Ethaniel: one worries about how becoming 'selfless' would affect how those we love would treat us if any differently
Faenik: why not?
Fael Illyar is just learning to use her free will here.
Gaya Ethaniel: I've realised that this fear must be based on false belief that those we love love us as in our selves... their love is based on what they percieve as ourselves
Gaya Ethaniel: if that's 'love'... it's not really 'love' is it?
Wol Euler wonders whether that belief is false.
Fael Illyar ponders.
Wol Euler: always and necessarily false, I mean.
Gaya Ethaniel ponders
Wol Euler: it _can_ be true, obviously: "you're not who I thought you were"
Gaya Ethaniel: yes that's what I meant
Wol Euler: hello corvi.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hiya
Fael Illyar: Hi Corvi :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sorry I'm late...glances at Wol, smiles.
Gaya Ethaniel: If I 'find' myself and be true then the belief is not false perhaps?
Wol Euler laughs.
Wol Euler: you are far too early to be late.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. just made some tea here Corvi

(I quoted a few lines again to give Corvi the context of our discussion.)

Wol Euler: you cannot control their perception
Gaya Ethaniel: most of time, when I meet ppl, I more or less know if I see 'kindred spirit' or not, which is not 'self' as 'shackles'
Wol Euler: you can hope to be genuine and natural (that word again!) in yourself, and hope that they interperet you properly
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: that genuine and natural self is always there imo...
Gaya Ethaniel: don't think it changes
Gaya Ethaniel: just it gets more apparent or less so to others perhaps
Faenik: indeed?
Wol Euler: I think some people do suppress it or warp it.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Fael Illyar: there's of course the question of whether the 'kindred spirit' thing is also part of self but even if it is, I wonder if it's meaningful to consider it such

Extremism arrives, and I run away with the conversation. 

Wol Euler: I don't think that kids who carry thier dad's M17 to school and shoot 42 people are being genuine or natural.
Gaya Ethaniel: it's... mm... more like connection... not anything material or external stuff
Gaya Ethaniel: material/external things can point to that but not necessarily as some use them delibertately to convey what they want others to perceive of themselves
Wol Euler: to use Fael's term, that extreme example is definitely a constructed self (IMHO)
Gaya Ethaniel: mm...
Fael Illyar: yes, to go shoot 42 people at your school ... you'd need to think you're completely separate and that their life has no value (or maybe even negative value?)
Faenik: indeed?
Wol Euler nods.
Gaya Ethaniel: true... separate indeed in extreme sense
Gaya Ethaniel: how about death penalty then?
Wol Euler smiles. The great divider :-)
Faenik: why not?
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Wol Euler: why not, indeed? Why not let those who feel separate from hunanity, be separaeted from it?
Wol Euler: if you behave as a non-human, why should I not treat you as non-human?
Gaya Ethaniel: eye or eye?
Gaya Ethaniel: eye for eye*?
Wol Euler: yes, and also the right of self-defence
Gaya Ethaniel: why self-defense?
Wol Euler: literally so. To prevent ourselves being killed.
Gaya Ethaniel: a serial killer may also think the same?
Fael Illyar: yes, a deluded one might
Gaya Ethaniel: yes however deluded
Wol Euler: I am wondering how much of my reseponse to this may be purely emotional. I tend to think of the extreme cases, like:
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka
Gaya Ethaniel reads
Wol Euler: as a Canadian, I think it is a shame and a national disgrace that they are still alive.
Wol Euler: even as it shames me as a would-be enlightened and civilized human to think that.
Gaya Ethaniel: as non-Canadian, don't feel the same. but I do understand that feeling though
Faenik loves wells!
Wol Euler: a singularly disgusting tale.
Fael Illyar: if you ask me, it would be good to measure "punishment" as restrictions that prevent that kind of crime from happening again. As long as it's necessary.
Fael Illyar: but ... it's kind of impossible to really tell that last part.
Wol Euler: yep
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Faenik loves wells!
Fael Illyar: the criminals are doing those crimes to avoid facing themselves. The restrictions that prevent that (but only just stop them from doing it) would be ideal.
Wol Euler: when you read the list of rapes that Bernardo committed, over many years, well ... I simply do not believe that he can ever be trusted in free society. He must either die or remain separate until he dies. That is the social self-defence I mean.
Fael Illyar: so they'd no longer be able to escape from themselves by doing the crime.
Gaya Ethaniel: I just feel uncomfortable about taking the life away option
Wol Euler: there is a distinction to be made ... which is perhaps just hairsplitting to soothe my conscience.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles at Wol trying to split a hair
Wol Euler: someone who gets into a fight in a bar and hits someone who falls over and dies, is not a Paul Bernardo.
Fael Illyar: if it's clearly obvious that the death sentence of the one person, who commited the crime, would save more other lives ...
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Wol Euler: and if it came to a referendum, I would vote against the death penalty, because I have no faith in the legal system to make that decision -- nor even to catch the right person!
Wol Euler: there are too many casese of evidence ignored or misunderstood, of wrong identification.
Fael Illyar: yes, there's that as well
Fael Illyar remembers hearing a principle "It's better to let a guilty man walk than to punish an innocent"
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six
Wol Euler: anothe extreme example: the cops were so certain that the Six were guilty, that they _forged_ evidence against them.
Gaya Ethaniel: not good that
Wol Euler: very not good.
Fael Illyar: not good being an extreme understatement
Gaya Ethaniel: yes Wol it's rather a complex issue... capital punishment
Wol Euler chuckles.
Gaya Ethaniel: scares me to think though that there are such scary ppl around...
Wol Euler: as well it should; but know htat your chance of meeting them is very close to zero.
Wol Euler: Toronto had only one Bernardo in a population of 12 million.
Wol Euler: you are far more at risk from your neighbour's car, than from your neighbour.
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Wol Euler apologies for monopolizing hte convesation.
PaB Listener Master: Removing "Corvuscorva Nightfire" from list.
Wol Euler notes for the record that the Master is at 6988 bytes free, still declining slowly.
Fael Illyar: Yes, declining it looks like.
Fael Illyar: minimize list operations I guess?
Wol Euler: I'll have anohter look at it tonight.
Gaya Ethaniel needs to go meditate
Gaya Ethaniel: have a good day and see you soon
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_