2012.07.07 07:00 - Mirror Neurons and "Neutral" Knowing

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Raffi.
Raffila Millgrove: hi bruce.
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Alfred Kelberry: ms raffi
Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Boxy.
Alfred Kelberry: mr bruce
Raffila Millgrove: i enjoyed reading about that neuro biology "stories"... idea you were presenting.
Raffila Millgrove: hello Boxy.
Alfred Kelberry: elegant haircut, raff :)
Raffila Millgrove: ty
Bruce Mowbray: Very much appreciated your email message today, Boxy.
Raffila Millgrove: i crash up here yesterday .. something fierce during the voice session. i hope i see Yaku to explain why i never returned.
Alfred Kelberry: i'm glad you did, Bruce
Raffila Millgrove: oh you replied already boxy?
Alfred Kelberry: wait! did you change the av? :)
Raffila Millgrove: i didn't see it. i open immediately.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Bruce has matured a bit -- also got a haircut for the summer.
Raffila Millgrove: wow Bruce! you are a new man!
Alfred Kelberry: cool :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) ty.
Raffila Millgrove: wow. you look fabulous...what a wonderful avi you chose.
Alfred Kelberry: reminds me a bit of cal :)
Raffila Millgrove: hot hot hot
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Raffila Millgrove: wow bruce is one hot guy!!!!
Alfred Kelberry: girls are getting excited in the auditorium :)
Raffila Millgrove: that laugh looks better with suspenders Bruce. you might have to give that one up.
Bruce Mowbray: Yep, it will be over 100 here today - so we're all HOT.
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Raffila Millgrove: (leaves for a second to read boxy's email)
Bruce Mowbray: Xir wrote that she'd not be able to be here to claim this session. . .
Alfred Kelberry: yes, must be siesta time :)
Bruce Mowbray: Shall I - or would either of you care to claim it?
Alfred Kelberry: please do, bruce
Raffila Millgrove: mmm
Raffila Millgrove: interesting comments Boxy. and very clear, articulately done.
Alfred Kelberry: thank you :)
Raffila Millgrove: i wonder what pema will say in return.
Raffila Millgrove: oh gosh Bruce. get those darn suspenders off you.
Raffila Millgrove: that just kills the cool guy.Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Raffila Millgrove: omy gosh.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) kk.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, San!
Alfred Kelberry: quickly, take a pic, raff! :)
Raffila Millgrove: no way. i hate the suspenders.

Alfred Kelberry: san :)
Raffila Millgrove: with that cute guy look.
Raffila Millgrove: heya San.
Bruce Mowbray: better?
Santoshima Resident: hey, mornin'
Raffila Millgrove: we were talking about pema-boxy mail exchange and complimenting Bruce on his new avi.
Santoshima Resident: oh, wow bruce!
Raffila Millgrove: yeah it's too hot. i am overcome.
Santoshima Resident: <3
Raffila Millgrove: did you read the mails yet San?
Bruce Mowbray: ♥ ♥ ♥
Raffila Millgrove: Boxy's just came over in my box.
Santoshima Resident: nope, must have missed it
Santoshima Resident: late-breaking news!
Alfred Kelberry: raff, in due time :)
Raffila Millgrove: ah. it's a long read.... you cannot .. scan...

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I printed it all out to hardcopy,
Alfred Kelberry: haha
Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)
Raffila Millgrove: we are awaiting to see now.. what will Pema reply in turn.. if he does.
Santoshima Resident: going to it now ... will report findings ...
Raffila Millgrove: eh. it's really a long read... i feel bad to send you away...
Raffila Millgrove: from us.
Santoshima Resident: ok, will check later
Santoshima Resident: is it a challenge?
Raffila Millgrove: no
Raffila Millgrove: but you gotta sit down and think on it.. it's easy to read.. but not so easy to "think" on what's all said.
Santoshima Resident: okay
Santoshima Resident: a synopsis?
Raffila Millgrove: er.. rather not.
Raffila Millgrove: hehe
Santoshima Resident: okey
Raffila Millgrove: maybe someone else wants to give it a shot.
Santoshima Resident: lol
Raffila Millgrove: i do know.. tho.
Raffila Millgrove: where it started in one sense.
Alfred Kelberry: i should have included a tl;dr version :)
Raffila Millgrove: cause i called out and challenged boxy here on July 4th 7 pm meet.. and he replied very clear.. in depth.
Bruce Mowbray: "PaB and the Nature of Explorations"
Santoshima Resident: ahhh
Raffila Millgrove: we had a "confrontation". a cheerful one tho.. not nasty.
Alfred Kelberry: i usually pass on lengthy emails myself, but enjoyed one from pema
Bruce Mowbray: (no barking or growling or snarling of cardboard teeth)
Raffila Millgrove: and things we had said to each other perhaps.. in less depth in IM.. they appear in chat. boldly. and it provoked this mail from Pema.
Santoshima Resident: oh, surprised i missed it
Raffila Millgrove: boxy and pema talked quite a while back.. if you recall.
Santoshima Resident: yes, quite well
Raffila Millgrove: but boxy this time was really in depth on his thoughts when he replied to my challenge.
Santoshima Resident: ah, at last!
Raffila Millgrove: and I am sure from what pema said in his note--that it was reading that in the logs. which caused him to respond at length.
Santoshima Resident: { i think this is the first time i've seen boxy/puppy sit comfortably at PaB !! }
Raffila Millgrove: to boxy. and to all pabbers as well.
Santoshima Resident: i see
Santoshima Resident: do you have a link to it?
Bruce Mowbray: me too, San. . .
Raffila Millgrove: that's kind of a preview/background summary.
Santoshima Resident: ok
Alfred Kelberry: san, this "sit here" feature is quite handy :)
Raffila Millgrove: on why Pema wrote. he is responding to what boxy said in that log.
Bruce Mowbray: Partly the dialogue seems (to me) to involve how do we "know" what we "know...."
Bruce Mowbray: For example, how do I know "experientially" - and how do I know "narratively" and are there other ways that I "know"?
Santoshima Resident: right
Bruce Mowbray: For example.. (again) -- How is my experiential "physical" pain (OUCH!) different from my emotional pain?
Santoshima Resident: thanks, Raffi ... I also found the google groups exchange
Santoshima Resident: please continue, bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Does my emotional pain involve some "narrative" ? (that my experiential pain lacks)?
Bruce Mowbray: Does my continuity of self and self-awareness depend upon BOTH?
Raffila Millgrove: both what?
Bruce Mowbray: Are there also narratives in nature. . . (fossil records, for example -- or ice cores, or light coming from ancient stars).
Raffila Millgrove: both the kinds of pain.. or narrative needed along with emotional.
Bruce Mowbray: involve and depend upon both the narrative and the experiential, San.
Santoshima Resident: emotional pain / experiential pain
Santoshima Resident: got that
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Raffila Millgrove: you need both physical and emotional pain?
Raffila Millgrove: eh?
Raffila Millgrove got lost obviously.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I'd like to minimize both, of course, but my sanity and survival seem to require both -- as well as a "container" for all of this stuff to fit in.
Raffila Millgrove: really? you need physical pain?
Raffila Millgrove: did i really read that right?
Bruce Mowbray: There's also some question about developmental psychology.
Bruce Mowbray: For example, I learned very young that growling meant danger.
Raffila Millgrove: (I get the need for narrative to make sense of pain)
Santoshima Resident: ditto
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I need physical pain to signal that something is "wrong" so as to avoid or to fix it.
Raffila Millgrove: but what i don't get is that you said you need physical pain?
Raffila Millgrove: oh ok.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't want to touch hot stoves, for example - and NOT know that they are hot.
Raffila Millgrove: that's reasonable.
Bruce Mowbray: or boiling water.
Santoshima Resident: a rather major problem, otherwise, no feedback
Raffila Millgrove: there's a rare disease we were talking about.. where people cannot feel pain and it's incredibly dangerous of course.
Bruce Mowbray: If I am really sick, I want/need to feel the pain of a fever.
Raffila Millgrove: for that very reason. health. no warning that trouble is brewing.
Raffila Millgrove: luckily it's very rare disease.
Raffila Millgrove: ok. so we are with you so far.. are you going any further with this Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: Also, I think we need to explore mirror neurons ... because whether we want to admit it or not, much of our "experience" is already subconsciously reactive -- or maybe reflexive (or at least unconscious, whatever we want to call it).

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: For example, when Raffi had such a strong "reaction" to my wearing suspenders (tee hee!), were her mirror neurons kicking in - in overdrive, perhaps?
Raffila Millgrove: you were reading this in a book? i forgot where you originally said you found this info. (i'd like to read on mirror neurons)
Bruce Mowbray: ♥ ♥ ♥
Santoshima Resident: mirror neurons ... refresh memory about those? ... they are somehow associated with capacity for empathy ... vague recollection about this
Raffila Millgrove: not really Bruce. i was looking at you... and i don't like suspenders with this image. tho they were great in the old one.
Bruce Mowbray: The Roadside Philosophers will be discussing mirror neurons at the top of the next hour....
Santoshima Resident: roadside who?
Raffila Millgrove: really?
Bruce Mowbray: "Mirror Neurons and Voyeurism"
Raffila Millgrove: you have a link?
Raffila Millgrove: oh wow what a title. hahahaha
Bruce Mowbray: Roadside Philosophers -- Pamala Clift's group in her Thinktank sim..
Bruce Mowbray: I shall find you one, if I can...
Bruce Mowbray: just a sec, please.
Santoshima Resident: ok
Bruce Mowbray: "1st person philosophy group..using SL as a metaphor in the search for truth.. Your thoughts are just as valid as any. Out-of-the box thinkers. Individuals that like to challenge convention by exploring new ideas. No rudeness or hostilities allowed. Brain storming can only work if no idea is stupid but presented with rational thought. BiWeekly must at least be able to listen in Voice. Next meeting:Sat July 7 at 8 am..Topic: Mirror Nuerons and Voyarism. .. However they r spelled. Benefit from immersion"
Raffila Millgrove: mm. love that "no idea is stupid"
Bruce Mowbray: "Sat July 7 8am slt we will be discussing at the think tank, Our visual experiences that become a part of us. and the mirror neurons that replicate that experience for us. What has been your most memorable experience, via our little world? Have your ears on.. 10L to those before 8a. Hugs"
Bruce Mowbray: (Pamala's notices for today's discussion).
Raffila Millgrove: plenty of ideas are massively stupid. i know. i conceive them personally.
Bruce Mowbray: But my point in saying this stuff about mirror neurons was: "Experience" cannot possibly be entirely neutral....
Raffila Millgrove: ty Bruce.
Santoshima Resident: 10L? i'm in
Bruce Mowbray: or entirely objective....
Santoshima Resident: lol
Bruce Mowbray: Pam pays folks 10L for being on time.
Raffila Millgrove: whose experience is neutral or objective?
Santoshima Resident: no one's
Santoshima Resident: everyone's
Raffila Millgrove ponders a neutral experience.
Raffila Millgrove: i think you have to be Swiss for that.
Raffila Millgrove: haha
Santoshima Resident: yeah, worth pondering
Santoshima Resident: { bruce could you re-bake your new form, ... for a pic? }
Bruce Mowbray: I seem to have lost my LM for the Thinktank -- darn it!
Alfred Kelberry: bruce: ah, yes. i remember this on time incentive. how much is it? 10 lindens?
Bruce Mowbray: I've just re-baked ... three times, in fact.  Is it better, now?
Raffila Millgrove: well i only know voyeurism from a kink basis.. so it would be weird to see how that is supposed to link to mirror neurons.. but i have open mind to find out.
Bruce Mowbray: My "position" is that both voyeurism and pornography would be impossible without mirror neurons.
Raffila Millgrove: oh?
Santoshima Resident: yes, thanks, Bruce
Raffila Millgrove: how so.
Bruce Mowbray: kk. yw.
Raffila Millgrove: "A mirror neuron is a neuron that fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another.[1][2][3] Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behaviour of the other, as though the observer were itself acting. Such neurons have been directly observed in primate and other species including birds. In humans, brain activity consistent with that of mirror neurons has been found in the premotor cortex, the supplementary motor area, the primary somatosensory cortex and the inferior parietal cortex."
Raffila Millgrove: wikipedia
Bruce Mowbray: Well, one watches pornography (by definition) to get a physiological reaction (otherwise, it's art appreciation.)
Bruce Mowbray: Mirror neurons make that physiological reaction not only possible - but also inevitable.
Raffila Millgrove: yeah yeah. seems obvious when you read the definition.. why they said voyeurism.
Bruce Mowbray: and also inescapable.
Bruce Mowbray: There are also hormonal inputs, of course.
Alfred Kelberry: it's worth noting that the function and mere existence of mirror neurons are highly speculative
Bruce Mowbray: and these would also seem to make "pure experience" a bit questionable . . . (I don't like my word "pure.")
Raffila Millgrove: "Neuroscientists such as Marco Iacoboni (UCLA) have argued that mirror neuron systems in the human brain help us understand the actions and intentions of other people. In a study published in March 2005 Iacoboni and his colleagues reported that mirror neurons could discern if another person who was picking up a cup of tea planned to drink from it or clear it from the table. In addition, Iacoboni has argued that mirror neurons are the neural basis of the human capacity for emotions such as empathy.[7] It has also been proposed that problems with the mirror neuron system may underlie cognitive disorders, particularly autism.[8][9] However the connection between mirror neuron dysfunction and autism is tentative and it remains to be seen how mirror neurons may be related to many of the important characteristics of autism.[10]"
Raffila Millgrove: oh this looked a whole lot shorter.
Raffila Millgrove: sorry for the huge spam thing.
Santoshima Resident: np ... it's helpful
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Boxy... you're right about the speculative thing.... And yet, we find babies only 20 minutes old able to mimic tongue-thrusting when that is demonstrated to them.
Raffila Millgrove: eh.
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Bruce Mowbray: Something must be happening in the brain there.
Alfred Kelberry: raff, my mirror neurons have learned to ignore anything longer than 5 lines of text in chat :)
Raffila Millgrove: haha
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Raffila Millgrove: i can't blame you.. i was shocked to see that rolling forward.
Raffila Millgrove: i better not do that anymore.
Bruce Mowbray considers starting a cult of "Mirror Neuron Fanaticists"
Raffila Millgrove: i read and type really fast. what seems short to me.. well obviously i was looking at the wrong mirror neurons somewhere in past.
Santoshima Resident: { you typed THAT? that IS fast }
Alfred Kelberry: raff: oh, please continue. you never know what useful fact can be revealed by a random paste :)
Raffila Millgrove blames everything on her damaged mirror neurons.
Raffila Millgrove: hahaha
Santoshima Resident: lol
Raffila Millgrove: wow Bruce this will be so convenient.
Raffila Millgrove: we can now claim our neurons were permanently damaged by watching the wrong set of people.
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps we could cleverly disguise (i.e. "mask"?) interest in porn as reverence for mirror neurons?

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: this is more scientific than simply blaming your mother for everything. now we know she demonstrated things wrong and screwed up our mirror neurons. we can sound more trendy/sophisticated in blaming others for our messes.
Alfred Kelberry: raff: well, social psych people would quickly find an application for mirror neurons. it is known that local environment shapes our mental patterns. although, there are exceptions.
Bruce Mowbray: Raffi, this raises questions of psychological "determinism...."
Raffila Millgrove: so true Boxy and Bruce.
Raffila Millgrove: but I am waiting for someone to adopt my theory of "manual transmission"
Bruce Mowbray: please explain, Raf.
Alfred Kelberry: oh... sounds exciting :)
Santoshima Resident: :)
Raffila Millgrove: the Porche makes a car with Both manual and automatic transmission. so in bad traffic. .when you want to relax etc.. you have car running in auto. But when You want to Take Control, you can shift into the manual transmission.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh cool... and your theory is?
Alfred Kelberry: ah, useful
Raffila Millgrove: I believe we can treat the brain like the Porche. we live in auto transmission most of the time.. and if we want to change, to override something like a mirror neuron--we can switch into manual trans.. and begin to try to rethink--repair--redo.. our own "thinking".. reactions etc.
Santoshima Resident: a choice
Raffila Millgrove: actually the drop/stop.. is a form of that momentary switching off auto.. and taking control. even if it seems like we are giving up control.. i feel we are. going out of auto..
Alfred Kelberry: yes, we can treat our lives same way :)
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh -- so, observe, monitor, and modify...?
Raffila Millgrove: i think drop/stop. it's that pause we have to take.. to switch over into manual transmission.
Raffila Millgrove: or can take. not "have to".. but it's one way.. to stop the auto trans..
Raffila Millgrove: that's why i like it.. it's easy...
Raffila Millgrove: i like things that are fast and simple.. that work.. without over-thinking it.
Raffila Millgrove: that i call the How to Cook Turkey theory. haha
Raffila Millgrove: i have a lot of theories.
Raffila Millgrove: other people call the how to cook turkey.. KISS... keep it simple, stupid.
Bruce Mowbray: Would love to hear them all, Raf.
Raffila Millgrove: same idea.... easier it is to do something. better chance you get on the results.
Santoshima Resident: brb
Bruce Mowbray: But perhaps the harder it is to do something, the more you learn from the experience -- ?
Bruce Mowbray: . . . which sort of raises that old "pain" issue again... in a way.
Raffila Millgrove: you know how market sales people like to judge an ad? one way is answer to this question: how long would it take you to explain this concept to another person. they start at 15 seconds and move to one minute. good judge of how well this concept is being explained.
Raffila Millgrove: (market researchers i meant)
Raffila Millgrove: how well the ad explains.. i mean. whew i need a translator.
Bruce Mowbray: Slogans and acronyms can be efficient, of course....
Bruce Mowbray: "Are you saved?"
Bruce Mowbray: "Are you enlightened?"

Bruce Mowbray: "United we stand."
Raffila Millgrove: i don't always agree that hard is best Bruce.. that you learn more when it's hard. i think more people will drop out in learning anything.. the harder you make the learning process.
 Raffila Millgrove: in fact. i just detest a teacher who takes pride in making the learning difficult.
Alfred Kelberry: ad's goal is to make you feel inadequate :)
Bruce Mowbray: Pam just sent me a message -- her pocketbook closes in five minutes.
Bruce Mowbray: Gotta RUN run now!
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you San, Raffi, and Boxy!
Raffila Millgrove: oh ok bruce.
Alfred Kelberry: fish well!
Raffila Millgrove: no the ad's purpose boxy is to make you feel that you both want and need the product.
Alfred Kelberry: should we go and collect some money? :)
Raffila Millgrove: can't just want it.. gotta Need it.
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Alfred Kelberry: raff, which is a causal effect of feeling inadequate :)
Raffila Millgrove: nah i am skipping the 10L cause i honestly think we already cracked that mirror neuron case over here today. once you see the definition.. it's obviously a good possibility... i wonder when they'll get that all well proven.
Raffila Millgrove: yeah. i can see your point there.. boxy.
Raffila Millgrove: inadequate. meaning i need more of this or that.. to feel ok.
Santoshima Resident: *
Santoshima Resident: bye Bruce
Raffila Millgrove: is there anything boxy.. you feel.. you really need, that you don't have right now?

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: you san?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, for a mild headache to go away :)
Alfred Kelberry: less heat as well
Santoshima Resident: huh? just reading back, was afk
Raffila Millgrove pushes the correct pressure point on the side of boxy's forehead.. so that his headache will ease up. assuming it's a tension one.
Alfred Kelberry: oh, thank you :)
Raffila Millgrove: yw.
Raffila Millgrove: press the sides of your head up there.. by the forehead boxy. .it really does help if it's not a hunger or sinus headache.
Raffila Millgrove: temple.
Raffila Millgrove: that's the word. press steadily on your temples.
Raffila Millgrove: if you get stabbing in the eye pain... from headache. that's sinus..most headaches are more of the tension variety.
Santoshima Resident: a tensor bandage around the head sometimes helps, dim the lights, drink some water with juice in it
Raffila Millgrove: yeah that's very good advice. the sugar from the fruit helps if it's related to low blood sugar.
Raffila Millgrove: like hypoglycemic.
Raffila Millgrove: sp
Alfred Kelberry: you girls are pros :)
Alfred Kelberry: i usually let it be or take a pill if it becomes annoying :)
Raffila Millgrove: my husband. can come up and suck against the temple area and suck out a headache. this is either me.. being very gullible or him being talented. or both.. either way.. it actually works!
Alfred Kelberry: wow
Raffila Millgrove: he does this air sucking noise. it's very impressive.
Raffila Millgrove: the noise really makes it. i enjoy it hugely. maybe the laughing makes the headache ease.
Santoshima Resident: :) if it works ...
Santoshima Resident: oh, and boxy ... stay away from computer monitors
Raffila Millgrove: well it does work. probably because of the fun of it all.. rather than really being able to suck anything out.
Alfred Kelberry: ha! good one :)
Santoshima Resident: lol
Raffila Millgrove: my personal headache voodoo man.
Alfred Kelberry: san, it may have been the cause
Raffila Millgrove: he also makes a great chicken salad sandwich and fixes stuff. and that covers his talents.
Santoshima Resident: sound like a great cv!
Raffila Millgrove: well it's unusual set of skills.. but i find them very handy.
Alfred Kelberry: ok, folks. i'll follow san's advice and take some rest.
Raffila Millgrove: (gets both hungry for chicken sandwich and has a lot of headaches and breaks things regularly)
Alfred Kelberry: thank you for the company
Santoshima Resident: rest well, boxy ...
Santoshima Resident: and i'll head off to workday
Raffila Millgrove: bye boxy. bye san.
Raffila Millgrove: feel well soon
Santoshima Resident: bye boxy and raffi ~