2008.10.19 07:00 - Argument Against the Argument

Adams Rubble was the guardian and recorder of the chat and responsible for comments

I was myself for a short time and about to fill the void with song when Doug rezzed into the pavilion

Adams Rubble: Hi Doug :)
doug Sosa: morning.
Adams Rubble: Lovely morning it is ")
doug Sosa: still dark here, well glow of dawn.
Adams Rubble: Ah, the sun is in its full glory here lighting up the changing leaves
doug Sosa: we have soem poplars outside that are just pure gold in about an hour, amazing.
Adams Rubble: Yes, every fall it is amazing all over again :)
doug Sosa: only problem is that they are closer together.
Adams Rubble: We used to have a poplar but it was getting too tall to fast and was to close to the house. We miss it
Adams Rubble: Yes, it seems that way Doug :)
doug Sosa: the ones we have were part of a planting in the 20's and they are comng to their end, so the regular pattern is now looking like an old crones toothwork.
Adams Rubble: Hmmm
Adams Rubble: Ours was only about six-eight years old and it was the tallest tree around
doug Sosa: it has a mission :)
Adams Rubble: :)
doug Sosa: "had..
Adams Rubble looks away guiltily
doug Sosa: hm, why?
Adams Rubble cut it down
doug Sosa: ah,
Adams Rubble notes it was before PaB
Adams Rubble: The group in Princeton is planning to come in mass to the guardian meeting this morning
doug Sosa: this one?
Adams Rubble: No the 8am meeting
doug Sosa: hm, 8am SL time?
Adams Rubble: yes
doug Sosa: Hm. Ah, forgot, sunday!

Corvi and a newcomer, Corry, arrived

Adams Rubble: Hello Corvi :)
doug Sosa: I notice there are things I won't say because of being recorded.
corry Scarmon: hi there
doug Sosa: hi,
Adams Rubble: Hello Corry :)
corry Scarmon: hi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all
corry Scarmon: tried
Adams Rubble: Corry have you been to a PaB meeting before?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Corry has
corry Scarmon: no
doug Sosa: ah. well, friendly here in our little meditation group.
Adams Rubble: We are a Play-as-Being group
Adams Rubble: We explore the nature of reality
Adams Rubble: We meet every day at 7,1,7 and 1--four times a day-every six ours
Adams Rubble: I am going to give you a notecard with more information
doug Sosa: yes.
corry Scarmon: sound boring
corry Scarmon: sounds
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Might be, Corry.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Might be fun.
corry Scarmon: might
doug Sosa: is
Adams Rubble: Well if one is bored with life changing experiences, I guess it is boring :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire grinds at Doug.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: *grins*
doug Sosa: i like grinds, got my attention!
Corvuscorva Nightfire *laughs with Doug*
Adams Rubble: We record our conversations and the log is placed on the Wiki. Do either of you have an objection to that?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am sorry I came so in the middle...did we have a topic of discussion?
corry Scarmon: sex
Adams Rubble: We were discussing the fall changes and I had mention the Princton group will be coming to the guardian meeting
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Corry, do you mind if we put your words on the website, along with our own?
corry Scarmon: no
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thank you.
Adams Rubble: Thank you Corry
corry Scarmon: yw
doug Sosa: talking about "fall" must be related to our mortality. Hence sex.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: A brilliant seque
doug Sosa: bows.
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles at Doug.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Can we talk about free will for a bit?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: this came up yesterday.
Adams Rubble: Please Corvi
Adams Rubble: It did in Princeton too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: What was said in Princeton?
Adams Rubble: :)

At that point Gen arrived and I was very glad to see her because I had put myself out on a limb and couldn't see a way back. I forgotten the details of the free will conversation

Adams Rubble: Let's see if I can get it right :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Gen :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, Gen.
genesis Zhangsun: Hi all
genesis Zhangsun: Sorry to pop in the middle
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no worries..we were just about to begin talking about free will.
Adams Rubble: Gen, Corry just brought up free will and I mentioned that it came up in Princeton
Adams Rubble: I am trying to remember what was said :)
genesis Zhangsun: Ah yes great topic
genesis Zhangsun: well I think we were talking about free will as a dimension
genesis Zhangsun: like time/space
Adams Rubble: Ah yes
corry Scarmon: brb
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh!
genesis Zhangsun: Yes I think there was something like we would need at least six dimensions in order to allow for free will
Adams Rubble: Yes... :)

Then Fael appeared

doug Sosa: why can't we have free will in one dimension?
Adams Rubble: Hello Fael (reinforcements arriving by the minute)
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: We are discussing free will Fael :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
corry Scarmon: hi hi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh good, Fael was here last night, too.
Hihi, Corry.
Adams Rubble: Wow, I am very fuzzy on this one :(
Adams Rubble: I know it was said that we can get ourselves in a position where we think there is no free will
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Last night here, we talked about choice being important in free will, though Fael says it is not necessary to have choice to have free will...at least...well I think I have that wrong, somehow.
Adams Rubble seems to remember that the idea we do have free will sounded more likely

Steve came next, I was feeling more confident we would have an answer for Corvi

Adams Rubble: Hello Steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Adams Rubble: Steve we are discussing free will and I seem to have forgoten the details from yesterday :)
stevenaia Michinaga: the morning guardians are arriving, Stim is here we can ask him
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: Hello Steve :)
Adams Rubble: Yes, it was Stim who was talking about free will
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..I think I just want to know that it exists.
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: It is a bit complicated but I ended up with the feeling it wasn't something we should worry about :)
stevenaia Michinaga: ThreeDee goes with James, better to behave as if it does
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok..no real names here, I'll just get confused.
Adams Rubble: As you once said to Quilty, Corvi, "Don't worry your pretty head about it". hehe
Corvuscorva Nightfire snickers.
Fael Illyar grins.
genesis Zhangsun: free will is a bogus framing according to Stim
genesis Zhangsun: he says an argument for or against is probably wrong
stevenaia Michinaga: James = Williams James, not an Avatar
Adams Rubble: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh thank God, Steve.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I thought I had to learn another name and it was hurting my head.
stevenaia Michinaga: ......smile
genesis Zhangsun: My thought is that the only choice we have is to be ourselves or not to be ourselves
Adams Rubble: Sounds right Gen
stevenaia Michinaga: actually Stim has an argument against the argument that is it does or does not exist
doug Sosa: ourself?
genesis Zhangsun: yourself
genesis Zhangsun: or not yourself
doug Sosa: yes, but that changes. this came up here last night.
doug Sosa: Is there a core self, or not.
Adams Rubble: That is why we have trouble understanding Stim, Steve :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..
doug Sosa: Buddha says self is like a cart. there is no essential cart, only the organization of the pieces.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I guess that was a big question for me after yesterday, too, Dough.
genesis Zhangsun: yes that is interesting what do we thing about that, does the self change?
genesis Zhangsun: Yes on the relative level
doug Sosa: why not at all levels?
genesis Zhangsun: is there a self that doesn't change
doug Sosa: I don't think so, attractive though it is.
genesis Zhangsun: seems like the thing that is most "real" is thing that is left, the unchanging
Fael Illyar: the only constant is change.
doug Sosa: Buddha's views was that as you take away pieces of the cart, or levels of the onion, it all changes.
doug Sosa: We are a comple gestalt, not a pearl in an oyster.
genesis Zhangsun: but when we thing about Being could we say this is an unchanging thing
doug Sosa: being is not a self. it is much more, and more again.
genesis Zhangsun: and if we say Being is everything doesn't that include the self in it
doug Sosa: yes, but as an appearance.
Fael Illyar: of course, all selves
Adams Rubble: And the appearance changes
genesis Zhangsun: ok what about the only choice is to be or not to be ;) I think I might have stolen that
Adams Rubble: hehe
genesis Zhangsun: I think I equate true self with Being
genesis Zhangsun: so for me to know thyself and to know Being are the same thing
Corvuscorva Nightfire ponders.
Falmer Owatatsumi is Offline
Fael Illyar: true self is the combination of all clothes after inner conflicts are resolved.
doug Sosa: if self is the same as being, and anther self is the same as that being (being no other being) then the first self and the second self are the same.
genesis Zhangsun: yes
Adams Rubble: I think that is getting close Doug
Corvuscorva Nightfire feels a little ill with head spinniness.
genesis Zhangsun: same at the core
genesis Zhangsun: taking on different forms and manifestation
genesis Zhangsun: appearance as you said
Adams Rubble: yes Gen
genesis Zhangsun: this is the unchanging self
genesis Zhangsun: the "core" self
genesis Zhangsun: It is when you know what your not that you what you are
Adams Rubble: The person who was there at our birth and will be there when we die
doug Sosa: if the core self is being then all things are the same. But, as the tao says "to see the same, be without desire. To see the differene, have desire"
Adams Rubble: Interesting thought Doug
genesis Zhangsun: to be without desire you actually have to know what you are desiring
Adams Rubble: :)
genesis Zhangsun: often we don't even realize that you desire something

Geo Joined us

Adams Rubble: Yes
Adams Rubble: Hello Geo
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Geo
doug Sosa: As the tao goes on to say, desiring and not diverge in speech but ar really the same.
Fael Illyar: Hi Geo :)
Geo Netizen: Hello everyone ... nice to see you all agina.
Adams Rubble: diverge in speech?
genesis Zhangsun: could you explain?
Adams Rubble: Doug?
genesis Zhangsun: Guardian meeting is starting shall we continue there?
Fael Illyar: Ah, guardian meeting starting.
doug Sosa: speech makes things different that are closely related. good and bad for example.
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go as well
doug Sosa: yes, let's go.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah darn!
Adams Rubble: Yes. Let us go forth....
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins...come with, Geo?
Geo Netizen: Ok ... where is everyone going?
Fael Illyar: follow the crowd of green dots on the map (on this same sim) if you're interested :)
Geo Netizen: Ok