2008.10.24 13:00 - Assumptions (continued...somewhat)

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    Solobill was the guardian, the comments are his.

    When I walked in to the Pavilion Umbriel was there with Faenik on his shoulder, and Wol quickly joined us.

    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Wol Euler: hello solo, umbriel
    Solobill Laville: hello, wol and umbriel!
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Wol Euler: I must warn you, I'm overtired and somewhat boozed from a pint of beer at dinner. I may attempt to turn this into anohter silly session.
    Umbriel Levenque: heheh
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: ANd I am still batlling a bad pita sandwich from 3 days ago...so, I may be grouchy ;)
    Wol Euler snurks.
    Umbriel Levenque: um... 3 days-old
    Wol Euler: (in a sympathetic way, of course)
    Solobill Laville nods
    Solobill Laville: Tuesday lunch... :(
    Solobill Laville: toxificated, methinks....
    Umbriel Levenque finishes his dinner... mm... chickpea stew with cous cous
    Wol Euler: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
    Solobill Laville: anyway
    Umbriel Levenque: stay away I'd say Solo
    Solobill Laville: oh, yeah
    Solobill Laville: Wol doesn't like chickpea stew with cous cous?
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Wol Euler: yes, I do i was ewwwing your three day old sandwich
    Solobill Laville: oh, thanks

    Umbriel got us on task and on topic.

    Umbriel Levenque: I was in the previous session and we had a good discussion about assumptions
    Wol Euler: that sounds like a good starting point. I haven't read the log yet, too busy working.
    Faenik: could be
    Solobill Laville: me too
    Umbriel Levenque: don't think it's up yet
    Wol Euler: ah, that might be another reason.
    Umbriel Levenque: some pointed out that assumptions are needed to make decisions in timely manner
    Wol Euler: "heuristics"
    Umbriel Levenque: I haven't really thought about assumptions that way before
    Wol Euler: rules-of-thumb: if rainy then umbrella
    Solobill Laville: Did it come up that there are different levels/types of assumptions?
    Wol Euler: mm?
    Solobill Laville: in the previous session I mean?
    Umbriel Levenque: yes, different assumptions... ie about people. how one needs to make assumptions (unavoidable in a way) in order to understand others
    Wol Euler: call it "patterns", perhaps: assumptions is emotionally (negatively) loaded
    Solobill Laville: that is true, Wol
    Umbriel Levenque: how one needs to 'wear' these assumptions lightly so that they can be adjusted as one goes along
    Umbriel Levenque: yes I agree
    Solobill Laville: Or perhaps sends up a warning flag
    Faenik: indeed?
    Umbriel Levenque: though... what is the difference between them in that case?
    Solobill Laville: Maybe a key point is the importance of being aware of the cost of an assumption being wrong
    Solobill Laville: i.e. not so big if it doesn't rain vs. congratulating a woman on being "pregnant" when she isn't...;)
    Wol Euler: perhaps only a difference of perception. But that is a huge difference, e.g. between christian sects.

    Quilty joins us.

    Wol Euler: hello quilty, welcome bak.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Thank you and hello all.
    Quilty Bookmite: And thanks Wol for filling in for me!
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Quilty!
    Umbriel Levenque: I stay about from congratulating women being pregnant Solo for that precise reasons
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Wol Euler smiles. A pleasure.
    Quilty Bookmite: Peace and Love Umbriel.
    Solobill Laville: Right, but that was a light comment, assumptions about Being might be more germane
    Umbriel Levenque: cost of assumptions...
    Solobill Laville wonders if Wol had Newcastle
    Wol Euler: Kronsteiner, actually.
    Wol Euler: semi-local brewery
    Solobill Laville: ah...
    Solobill Laville: yes, assumptions is the topic at the moment Quilty, feel free to join in
    Quilty Bookmite: I wouldn't presume to assume. :-)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: I assumed you would
    Solobill Laville: ;)
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: My wife is pregnant at the moment and not many people comment on it. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Probably being cautious.
    Solobill Laville: Well, congatulations!!!
    Umbriel Levenque: :D
    Quilty Bookmite: Thanks.
    A Kool-aid curveball...
    Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Ai...he_Kool-Aid.22
    Wol Euler: oh damn, wrong window. sorry.
    Umbriel Levenque: yes congratulations Quilty and the family
    Umbriel Levenque: too much beer... :-)
    Wol Euler: oh congrats! well cone :-)
    Wol Euler: *done even
    Umbriel Levenque: beer and PaB don't mix it seems
    Wol Euler: beer and Being mix very well, perhaps.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Solobill Laville: I was wondering about the kool-aid tie-in.. :)
    Wol Euler: well, I was talking to an absent newish member of the group, who was vaguely unsettled by the things she was starting to believe...
    Quilty Bookmite: Drinking kool-aid means comitting suicide?
    Solobill Laville: No
    Wol Euler: rather: it means swallowing the ideology
    Solobill Laville: It means "buying in" to some belief set
    Quilty Bookmite: I suddenly feel like I am flaunting my virility. It wasn't my intention. :-)
    Wol Euler laughs and thwaps you with a pillow
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Solobill Laville thinks "damn, Quilty is viril!"
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Solobill Laville thinks he might be a bit viral at the moment
    Quilty Bookmite: Well, I don't like to blow my own trumpet. :-)
    Wol Euler is feeling very virtual.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Quilty Bookmite: I think you may be very virtuous.
    Umbriel Levenque: didn't know the phrase... interesting
    Solobill Laville thinks it is best to let other people blow your trumpet
    Quilty Bookmite: Indeed.
    Wol Euler laughs and thwaps you with a pillow
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Solobill Laville: lol
    Solobill Laville: I'm feeling a little better now
    Quilty Bookmite: OK, I've done it again. Please continue with the serious conversation.
    Wol Euler: heheheheheh
    Umbriel Levenque: :D
    Umbriel Levenque: um... reading back
    Quilty Bookmite: That's killed it.
    Solobill Laville: yes, keep us on track please, umbriel :)
    Quilty Bookmite: I missed the start so I can't read back.

    Geo joins the group.

    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Geo.
    Wol Euler: hello Geo, nice to see you again
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Geo
    Geo Netizen: Hello everyone
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Umbriel Levenque: Geo we are continuing the discussion on assumptions
    Solobill Laville: ...or trying to...hehe
    Geo Netizen: Good ... it's a very intesting topic
    Geo Netizen: with a few distractions I'm sure
    Geo Netizen: :)

    Wol throws out some festivity, for which we were unprepared...

    Wol Euler: onigokko
    Solobill Laville smiles
    Solobill Laville: uh oh, there she goes
    Wol Euler: awwww, buncha spoilsports.
    Wol Euler: stop
    Umbriel Levenque: yep
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry. I wasn't tailed up.
    Solobill Laville: me neither
    Wol Euler: unreadiness is no excuse :-/
    Solobill Laville: I assumed she would do that (see how I stay on topic!)
    Quilty Bookmite: onigokko
    Faenik: ah :)
    Geo Netizen: Was there meaning to the exhibition?
    Quilty Bookmite: stop
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: *sulks*
    Quilty Bookmite: None at all, I think.
    Solobill Laville: I think the meaning is "Play" :)
    Wol Euler: just wear it :-) say "onigokko" to start and "stop" to, well, stop.
    Geo Netizen: Of course .... I should have known
    Quilty Bookmite: I assumed that Wol would still have hers switched on.
    Wol Euler: the meaning is probably "I had two glasses of beer and one of Schnapps on top of four hours' sleep"
    Solobill Laville nods appreciatively

    And Unbriel with Herculean efforts brings us back once more...

    Umbriel Levenque: do we need to be aware of 'cost of assumptions' or that they are assumptions?
    Wol Euler coughs and adjusts her facial expresssion.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Solobill Laville: awareness is always good
    Quilty Bookmite: We make assumptions all the time. It's difficult to function without them.
    Solobill Laville: but I'd argue moreso on the potential negative outcome of the assumption being wrong
    Solobill Laville thinks Wol's expression looks fairly convincing
    Umbriel Levenque: your assumptions include patterns or are they different things? sorry I'm losing the track a bit here
    Quilty Bookmite: Maybe we don't always voice those assumptions. That's what can get us into trouble.
    Geo Netizen: But I suggest that without some simplifying assumptions … we’d be paralyzed by complexity.
    Umbriel Levenque: easy to put on an expression in SL while downing beer in RL
    Solobill Laville: Umbriel, to me, assumptions are assumptions, but they are on a scale of relative impact
    Quilty Bookmite: Exactly Geo.
    Wol Euler: an assumption is a prediction based on an observed pattern. "Fred always eats salad, I won't make steak for the group"
    Umbriel Levenque: yes Quilty
    Solobill Laville nods
    Umbriel Levenque: I find it uncomfortable when I have to 'voice' assumptions
    Geo Netizen: Yes even coming up with a menu could be impossible without some assumptions.
    Wol Euler smiles
    Quilty Bookmite: So is it better to ask a woman if she is pregnant or is that just as bad as assuming she is?
    Solobill Laville: defining even basic words requires assumptions at some level
    Geo Netizen: Oooo … risky business :)
    Wol Euler: at some level we _need_ assumptions, we cannot question everything. "Is this still the gas pedal? How do I now that it is still the gas pedal -- just because it was so yesterday"
    Quilty Bookmite: Maybe better to keep mum.
    Solobill Laville: To quote Dave Barry, "Never congratulate a woman on being pregnant unless you actually see a baby coming out of her at that very moment."
    Geo Netizen: We cannot wait to act until we have *all* the facts
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Geo Netizen: At least our ancestors could not afford that luxury
    Quilty Bookmite: Our ancestors were probably less sensitive.
    Geo Netizen: Maybe .... or
    Wol Euler: ... but they faced problems that we do not.
    Wol Euler: we can go to the store and trust that everything there is edible,
    Solobill Laville: They may not have had as much luxury to question assumptions either
    Solobill Laville won't assume the food is edible where he ate lunch Tuesday
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Wol Euler: on tuesday it probably was. today is friday.
    Quilty Bookmite: I guess it's about probability. There is a low probability of buying food that will poison us therefore we assume it's safe.
    Solobill Laville: ahhhh
    Geo Netizen: Yes … I would agree that we are in a better position to examine many things.
    Geo Netizen: But still .... we need to make some assuptions to be functional
    Geo Netizen: to be social
    Faenik: could be
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, otherwise we would have to have all food lab tested before we eat it. :-)
    Geo Netizen: Precisely Quilty

    A visual appeared in my head...

    Solobill Laville: I guess I see it as a kind of scale
    Solobill Laville: on one side is any one assumption
    Solobill Laville: on the other is the weight of its impact if wrong
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Quilty Bookmite: But I don't think we make such calculations all the time.
    Geo Netizen: We assume restaurant food is safe but ...
    Geo Netizen: It isn’t always ...
    Wol Euler nods
    Geo Netizen: but the probably that I will be the one to die is
    Geo Netizen: relatively low
    Wol Euler: but it's more likely to be safe than eating a handful of berries that you've never seen growing before.
    Quilty Bookmite: Umbriel mentioned patterns, which I think is relevant. We see patterns in things and assume they will continue in that way.
    Geo Netizen: The cost of not making that assumption is considered much higher
    Umbriel Levenque: yes Quilty
    Geo Netizen: True, assumptions have the basis
    Umbriel Levenque: there is cost for not making assumptions?
    Geo Netizen: Yes ...
    Wol Euler: effort, delay
    Wol Euler: inconvenience
    Geo Netizen: lost opportunities
    Quilty Bookmite: We can hardly function without assumptions.
    Solobill Laville: True
    Quilty Bookmite: So we've covered that then? :-)
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Geo Netizen: But if we do not allow those assumptions to be questioned … and take the time to reflect …
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Geo Netizen: That is when they get us into trouble
    Geo Netizen: Just to mention the other side:)
    Geo Netizen: Is Faenik a bot?
    Umbriel Levenque: well... to be aware of assumptions, one must question them often I suppose
    Umbriel Levenque: he talks at a random interval Geo
    Solobill Laville: I think that is a good practice, Umbriel
    Solobill Laville: Especially about those with large impact
    Umbriel Levenque: not sure if I do that Solo... I just know I get it wrong almost most of time

    Wol recommends a book.

    Wol Euler: let me recommend a novel related to questioning assumptions, btw: "The dice man" by Luke Rhinehart.
    Geo Netizen: It is good for me to be reminded :)
    Geo Netizen: Thanks Wol
    Umbriel Levenque: thank you Wol. will make a note on my reading list
    Wol Euler: executive summary: He creates a new "religion" of not following any practice or habit or assumption, but letting his every action be determined ty tossing dice.
    Wol Euler: quite amusing, and thought-provoking too.
    Umbriel Levenque: sounds it
    Solobill Laville: Sounds like a reality show
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Geo Netizen: I’d think that system would quickly end in death
    Solobill Laville: Depends on how the "actions" are determined, I would guess
    Wol Euler: the novel ends pretty abruptly, yes.
    Solobill Laville: oh, there you go!
    Solobill Laville: Geez, thanks, Wol, now I don't have to read it ;)
    Wol Euler: pah.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Wol Euler: I didn't give away any more than you wouldn't have learned on page 4.
    Solobill Laville: hehe

    Here I decided to ask Wol about a log I had just read between her and Storm...but things quickly get crazy!

    Solobill Laville: So, Wol...
    Wol Euler: mm?
    Faenik: why not?
    Umbriel Levenque: so assumptions done... what's next Quilty?
    Wol Euler: world peace? can we solve that in 17 minutes?
    Solobill Laville: I was reading back a few logs, and saw on titled something like "Wol gets APAPB"
    Quilty Bookmite: I don't have a list.
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Solobill Laville: How did your assumptions play in to that, before?
    Quilty Bookmite: How about - Jaffa cakes - cake or biscuit?
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Umbriel Levenque: No man is an island
    Wol Euler: oooh, jaffa cakes. yes please.
    Solobill Laville shakes his head
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Quilty Bookmite passes Wol a jaffa cake.
    Solobill Laville: man these Friday afternoon sessions... :))
    Wol Euler: heheheheheheh
    Wol Euler: mnomm mnommm
    Geo Netizen: Anyone for Banan Nut Muffins?
    Solobill Laville: Just tryin' to pull it all together here... :))
    Wol Euler applauds. My hero!
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry *hangs head*
    Solobill Laville: ooh, that does sound good, I think I may have one ready
    Banana Nut Muffin whispers: Hmmm, a fresh baked muffin!
    Wol Euler: !

    Out come the drinks!

    GreenTea(Matcha): Mmmhh... enjoy the best green tea Quilty Bookmite
    Sake (koshu) whispers: Enjoy the best sake Geo Netizen
    Umbriel Levenque goes to the kitchen and fetches his Bavarian Weissbier
    Quilty Bookmite: Sounds good.
    Newcastle Ale Mug : Ice Cold Draught mmmmm!
    Quilty Bookmite: I'll stick with tea though.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Solobill Laville: So, I covered Pia's Saturday morning session, now there's a different demographic!
    Solobill Laville: I had post-party vampires showing up...hehe
    Umbriel Levenque: :-) more alert that bunch?
    Wol Euler chuckles. And the 7pm's, where threedee and adelene do philosophy.
    Solobill Laville: exactly!
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Wol Euler: 4 a.m. for me :-(
    Solobill Laville: This must be the wind-down session...
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: And 3 a.m. for me

    Isen drops in.

    Wol Euler: hello isen
    Umbriel Levenque: yep 3 am for me too
    Quilty Bookmite: Well, it is POETS day
    Geo Netizen: Hi Isen
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Solobill Laville: Hey, Isen!
    Isen Enzo: Greetings gates!
    Wol Euler: ha! haven't heard that in ages.
    Isen Enzo: Poet's day?
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Umbriel Levenque: Quilty I haven't had alcohol for months (except a half glass of wine a few weeks ago) since coming to PaB
    Quilty Bookmite: The polite version...
    Faenik: ah :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Push Off Early Tomorrows Saturday.
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Solobill Laville: Wow, Umbriel, that is something, er, is it?
    Umbriel Levenque: yeah... this beer was bought for me... haven't bought alcohol myself really
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Isen.
    Quilty Bookmite: I have had the odd whisky.
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, I didn't notice your arrival.
    Wol Euler: Laphroaig, for instance: very odd.
    Isen Enzo: odd whisky?
    Wol Euler: boom boom
    Umbriel Levenque: thought you took precepts and all Quilty
    Solobill Laville: Really, what's so odd about it? nyuk, nyuk
    Quilty Bookmite: What's odd about it?
    Isen Enzo: rimshot!
    Wol Euler: ah the old jokes are the best
    Umbriel Levenque: John Simpson loves that stuff
    Umbriel Levenque: real strong Solo
    Quilty Bookmite: It is an acquired taste.
    Solobill Laville: :) and peaty
    Umbriel Levenque: according to Simpson, life is somewhat sad when one needs to drink water :-)
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Geo Netizen: Agreed :))
    Solobill Laville thinks, hmmm, I'm drinking water now...
    Umbriel Levenque: (instead of achohol for him that is I infer)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Geo Netizen: Wine fruit of the vine, work of human hands and nectar of the gods!
    Solobill Laville: Indeed
    Wol Euler raise her stein in salute
    Geo Netizen: Say Wol… you’re slamming them back pretty seriously over there :)
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Wol Euler hiccups.
    Quilty Bookmite: Well, it's Friday, why not?
    Geo Netizen: Yes ... why not ...
    Solobill Laville: there aren't many dainty alcohol comsuming anims I've seen in SL... :)
    Wol Euler: true dat.
    Solobill Laville: And, you know, it's Wol
    Sake (koshu) whispers: Enjoy the best sake Geo Netizen
    Umbriel Levenque: yes
    Wol Euler laughs and thwaps you with a pillow.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-) it is Wol yes
    Quilty Bookmite: She always seemed such a delicate flower to me.
    Wol Euler wonders what that means...
    Solobill Laville: does this con-farned auto-recording thingy work yet?
    Wol Euler: short answer: no.
    Solobill Laville: long answer? no
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Wol Euler: longer answer: sometimes, but not often enough.
    Quilty Bookmite: noooooooooo?
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Wol Euler: it sometimes doesn't start itself, and I can't figure out why.
    Umbriel Levenque: 'delicate flower'....
    Faenik: indeed?
    Wol Euler: fu@*&!' right I am.
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Geo Netizen: Faenik can sometimes sound intelligent
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Adams
    Faenik: ^^
    Solobill Laville: When we met, WOl's avatar actually beat up my avatar behind the Tea House
    Wol Euler: hello adams, nice to see you.
    Wol Euler: lol
    Geo Netizen: Hi Adams
    Wol Euler: did not, you tripped.
    Umbriel Levenque: oh
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Solobill Laville: Hey, Adams!
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone. Not my most graceful entrance :)
    Wol Euler: it's another silly session, I'm afraid.
    Geo Netizen: Lag's bad again today
    Geo Netizen: Hey I thought we did a good job with asumptions
    Geo Netizen: or did I just assume that?
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Wol Euler: hahahah!
    Umbriel Levenque: :-) we did indeed
    Umbriel Levenque: I've learnt more at least

    I suddenly levitated.

    Solobill Laville: weeeee, I'm flyin'!
    Umbriel Levenque: heheh
    Quilty Bookmite: Solo did a saintly job. He's quite elevated.
    Quilty Bookmite: And you haven't touched a drop.
    Geo Netizen: Levitation …. I’m impressed
    Umbriel Levenque: it's the sandwich
    Adams Rubble: Oh, I must go already. Good to see you all :)
    Solobill Laville: nope, just did, Guinness
    Wol Euler: jet-propelled
    Wol Euler: awwww, bye adams take care
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Solobill Laville: Bye adams
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Quilty Bookmite: I should be going.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Umbriel Levenque: yes about time
    Solobill Laville: Good to see you Quilty
    Geo Netizen: Bye Quilty
    Wol Euler sighs and nods and drains her glass
    Wol Euler: bye quilty, take care
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye all.
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Umbriel Levenque: Good night/day to you
    Umbriel Levenque: another enjoyable Solo session :-)
    Wol Euler: very!
    Geo Netizen: Goodbye Umbriel Pax et bonum
    Wol Euler: ooh, floating too.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Geo Netizen: Okay …enuff sake for me …… thik I’ll call it a …. well … bie everyone …
    Wol Euler: bye geo, enjoy the weekend.
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Geo
    Geo Netizen: You too ... bye all

    One final thought...

    Solobill Laville: you know, it is so interesting to how folks communicate one on one versus in a larger PaB group
    Isen Enzo: yes
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, very true.
    Solobill Laville: just like RL, methinks
    Isen Enzo: one on one is the way to go..
    Isen Enzo: methinks
    Wol Euler: easier than RL in some ways, Cal and Maxine talked about that recently
    Isen Enzo: dokusan!
    Wol Euler: mm?
    Solobill Laville: true, that Isen
    Solobill Laville: one on one
    Isen Enzo: well, I'm gonna take my thousand yard stare..
    Isen Enzo: and away
    Wol Euler: ah
    Solobill Laville: but there is a different dynamic of course
    Wol Euler: bye isen, enjoy the weekend
    Solobill Laville: OK, bye Isen, maybe I'll make it later
    Isen Enzo: Thanks for the Heart Sutra
    Solobill Laville: yw
    Solobill Laville: I have many more...
    Isen Enzo: Bye for now
    Solobill Laville: Bye
    Wol Euler: mm?
    Isen Enzo: Blessings
    Wol Euler: ah
    Solobill Laville: ty, to you as well, Isen
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