2008.10.24 13:00 - Assumptions (continued...somewhat)

Solobill was the guardian, the comments are his.

When I walked in to the Pavilion Umbriel was there with Faenik on his shoulder, and Wol quickly joined us.

Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Wol Euler: hello solo, umbriel
Solobill Laville: hello, wol and umbriel!
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Wol Euler: I must warn you, I'm overtired and somewhat boozed from a pint of beer at dinner. I may attempt to turn this into anohter silly session.
Umbriel Levenque: heheh
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: ANd I am still batlling a bad pita sandwich from 3 days ago...so, I may be grouchy ;)
Wol Euler snurks.
Umbriel Levenque: um... 3 days-old
Wol Euler: (in a sympathetic way, of course)
Solobill Laville nods
Solobill Laville: Tuesday lunch... :(
Solobill Laville: toxificated, methinks....
Umbriel Levenque finishes his dinner... mm... chickpea stew with cous cous
Wol Euler: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Solobill Laville: anyway
Umbriel Levenque: stay away I'd say Solo
Solobill Laville: oh, yeah
Solobill Laville: Wol doesn't like chickpea stew with cous cous?
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Wol Euler: yes, I do i was ewwwing your three day old sandwich
Solobill Laville: oh, thanks

Umbriel got us on task and on topic.

Umbriel Levenque: I was in the previous session and we had a good discussion about assumptions
Wol Euler: that sounds like a good starting point. I haven't read the log yet, too busy working.
Faenik: could be
Solobill Laville: me too
Umbriel Levenque: don't think it's up yet
Wol Euler: ah, that might be another reason.
Umbriel Levenque: some pointed out that assumptions are needed to make decisions in timely manner
Wol Euler: "heuristics"
Umbriel Levenque: I haven't really thought about assumptions that way before
Wol Euler: rules-of-thumb: if rainy then umbrella
Solobill Laville: Did it come up that there are different levels/types of assumptions?
Wol Euler: mm?
Solobill Laville: in the previous session I mean?
Umbriel Levenque: yes, different assumptions... ie about people. how one needs to make assumptions (unavoidable in a way) in order to understand others
Wol Euler: call it "patterns", perhaps: assumptions is emotionally (negatively) loaded
Solobill Laville: that is true, Wol
Umbriel Levenque: how one needs to 'wear' these assumptions lightly so that they can be adjusted as one goes along
Umbriel Levenque: yes I agree
Solobill Laville: Or perhaps sends up a warning flag
Faenik: indeed?
Umbriel Levenque: though... what is the difference between them in that case?
Solobill Laville: Maybe a key point is the importance of being aware of the cost of an assumption being wrong
Solobill Laville: i.e. not so big if it doesn't rain vs. congratulating a woman on being "pregnant" when she isn't...;)
Wol Euler: perhaps only a difference of perception. But that is a huge difference, e.g. between christian sects.

Quilty joins us.

Wol Euler: hello quilty, welcome bak.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Thank you and hello all.
Quilty Bookmite: And thanks Wol for filling in for me!
Solobill Laville: Hi, Quilty!
Umbriel Levenque: I stay about from congratulating women being pregnant Solo for that precise reasons
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Wol Euler smiles. A pleasure.
Quilty Bookmite: Peace and Love Umbriel.
Solobill Laville: Right, but that was a light comment, assumptions about Being might be more germane
Umbriel Levenque: cost of assumptions...
Solobill Laville wonders if Wol had Newcastle
Wol Euler: Kronsteiner, actually.
Wol Euler: semi-local brewery
Solobill Laville: ah...
Solobill Laville: yes, assumptions is the topic at the moment Quilty, feel free to join in
Quilty Bookmite: I wouldn't presume to assume. :-)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Solobill Laville: I assumed you would
Solobill Laville: ;)
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Quilty Bookmite: My wife is pregnant at the moment and not many people comment on it. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Probably being cautious.
Solobill Laville: Well, congatulations!!!
Umbriel Levenque: :D
Quilty Bookmite: Thanks.

Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Ai...he_Kool-Aid.22
Wol Euler: oh damn, wrong window. sorry.
Umbriel Levenque: yes congratulations Quilty and the family
Umbriel Levenque: too much beer... :-)
Wol Euler: oh congrats! well cone :-)
Wol Euler: *done even
Umbriel Levenque: beer and PaB don't mix it seems
Wol Euler: beer and Being mix very well, perhaps.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Solobill Laville: I was wondering about the kool-aid tie-in.. :)
Wol Euler: well, I was talking to an absent newish member of the group, who was vaguely unsettled by the things she was starting to believe...
Quilty Bookmite: Drinking kool-aid means comitting suicide?
Solobill Laville: No
Wol Euler: rather: it means swallowing the ideology
Solobill Laville: It means "buying in" to some belief set
Quilty Bookmite: I suddenly feel like I am flaunting my virility. It wasn't my intention. :-)
Wol Euler laughs and thwaps you with a pillow
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Solobill Laville thinks "damn, Quilty is viril!"
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Solobill Laville thinks he might be a bit viral at the moment
Quilty Bookmite: Well, I don't like to blow my own trumpet. :-)
Wol Euler is feeling very virtual.
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Quilty Bookmite: I think you may be very virtuous.
Umbriel Levenque: didn't know the phrase... interesting
Solobill Laville thinks it is best to let other people blow your trumpet
Quilty Bookmite: Indeed.
Wol Euler laughs and thwaps you with a pillow
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Solobill Laville: lol
Solobill Laville: I'm feeling a little better now
Quilty Bookmite: OK, I've done it again. Please continue with the serious conversation.
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Umbriel Levenque: :D
Umbriel Levenque: um... reading back
Quilty Bookmite: That's killed it.
Solobill Laville: yes, keep us on track please, umbriel :)
Quilty Bookmite: I missed the start so I can't read back.

Geo joins the group.

Quilty Bookmite: Hi Geo.
Wol Euler: hello Geo, nice to see you again
Solobill Laville: Hi, Geo
Geo Netizen: Hello everyone
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Umbriel Levenque: Geo we are continuing the discussion on assumptions
Solobill Laville: ...or trying to...hehe
Geo Netizen: Good ... it's a very intesting topic
Geo Netizen: with a few distractions I'm sure
Geo Netizen: :)

Wol throws out some festivity, for which we were unprepared...

Wol Euler: onigokko
Solobill Laville smiles
Solobill Laville: uh oh, there she goes
Wol Euler: awwww, buncha spoilsports.
Wol Euler: stop
Umbriel Levenque: yep
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry. I wasn't tailed up.
Solobill Laville: me neither
Wol Euler: unreadiness is no excuse :-/
Solobill Laville: I assumed she would do that (see how I stay on topic!)
Quilty Bookmite: onigokko
Faenik: ah :)
Geo Netizen: Was there meaning to the exhibition?
Quilty Bookmite: stop
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Quilty Bookmite: *sulks*
Quilty Bookmite: None at all, I think.
Solobill Laville: I think the meaning is "Play" :)
Wol Euler: just wear it :-) say "onigokko" to start and "stop" to, well, stop.
Geo Netizen: Of course .... I should have known
Quilty Bookmite: I assumed that Wol would still have hers switched on.
Wol Euler: the meaning is probably "I had two glasses of beer and one of Schnapps on top of four hours' sleep"
Solobill Laville nods appreciatively

And Unbriel with Herculean efforts brings us back once more...

Umbriel Levenque: do we need to be aware of 'cost of assumptions' or that they are assumptions?
Wol Euler coughs and adjusts her facial expresssion.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Solobill Laville: awareness is always good
Quilty Bookmite: We make assumptions all the time. It's difficult to function without them.
Solobill Laville: but I'd argue moreso on the potential negative outcome of the assumption being wrong
Solobill Laville thinks Wol's expression looks fairly convincing
Umbriel Levenque: your assumptions include patterns or are they different things? sorry I'm losing the track a bit here
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe we don't always voice those assumptions. That's what can get us into trouble.
Geo Netizen: But I suggest that without some simplifying assumptions … we’d be paralyzed by complexity.
Umbriel Levenque: easy to put on an expression in SL while downing beer in RL
Solobill Laville: Umbriel, to me, assumptions are assumptions, but they are on a scale of relative impact
Quilty Bookmite: Exactly Geo.
Wol Euler: an assumption is a prediction based on an observed pattern. "Fred always eats salad, I won't make steak for the group"
Umbriel Levenque: yes Quilty
Solobill Laville nods
Umbriel Levenque: I find it uncomfortable when I have to 'voice' assumptions
Geo Netizen: Yes even coming up with a menu could be impossible without some assumptions.
Wol Euler smiles
Quilty Bookmite: So is it better to ask a woman if she is pregnant or is that just as bad as assuming she is?
Solobill Laville: defining even basic words requires assumptions at some level
Geo Netizen: Oooo … risky business :)
Wol Euler: at some level we _need_ assumptions, we cannot question everything. "Is this still the gas pedal? How do I now that it is still the gas pedal -- just because it was so yesterday"
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe better to keep mum.
Solobill Laville: To quote Dave Barry, "Never congratulate a woman on being pregnant unless you actually see a baby coming out of her at that very moment."
Geo Netizen: We cannot wait to act until we have *all* the facts
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Geo Netizen: At least our ancestors could not afford that luxury
Quilty Bookmite: Our ancestors were probably less sensitive.
Geo Netizen: Maybe .... or
Wol Euler: ... but they faced problems that we do not.
Wol Euler: we can go to the store and trust that everything there is edible,
Solobill Laville: They may not have had as much luxury to question assumptions either
Solobill Laville won't assume the food is edible where he ate lunch Tuesday
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Wol Euler: on tuesday it probably was. today is friday.
Quilty Bookmite: I guess it's about probability. There is a low probability of buying food that will poison us therefore we assume it's safe.
Solobill Laville: ahhhh
Geo Netizen: Yes … I would agree that we are in a better position to examine many things.
Geo Netizen: But still .... we need to make some assuptions to be functional
Geo Netizen: to be social
Faenik: could be
Quilty Bookmite: Yes, otherwise we would have to have all food lab tested before we eat it. :-)
Geo Netizen: Precisely Quilty

A visual appeared in my head...

Solobill Laville: I guess I see it as a kind of scale
Solobill Laville: on one side is any one assumption
Solobill Laville: on the other is the weight of its impact if wrong
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Quilty Bookmite: But I don't think we make such calculations all the time.
Geo Netizen: We assume restaurant food is safe but ...
Geo Netizen: It isn’t always ...
Wol Euler nods
Geo Netizen: but the probably that I will be the one to die is
Geo Netizen: relatively low
Wol Euler: but it's more likely to be safe than eating a handful of berries that you've never seen growing before.
Quilty Bookmite: Umbriel mentioned patterns, which I think is relevant. We see patterns in things and assume they will continue in that way.
Geo Netizen: The cost of not making that assumption is considered much higher
Umbriel Levenque: yes Quilty
Geo Netizen: True, assumptions have the basis
Umbriel Levenque: there is cost for not making assumptions?
Geo Netizen: Yes ...
Wol Euler: effort, delay
Wol Euler: inconvenience
Geo Netizen: lost opportunities
Quilty Bookmite: We can hardly function without assumptions.
Solobill Laville: True
Quilty Bookmite: So we've covered that then? :-)
Faenik: なるほど^^
Geo Netizen: But if we do not allow those assumptions to be questioned … and take the time to reflect …
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Geo Netizen: That is when they get us into trouble
Geo Netizen: Just to mention the other side:)
Geo Netizen: Is Faenik a bot?
Umbriel Levenque: well... to be aware of assumptions, one must question them often I suppose
Umbriel Levenque: he talks at a random interval Geo
Solobill Laville: I think that is a good practice, Umbriel
Solobill Laville: Especially about those with large impact
Umbriel Levenque: not sure if I do that Solo... I just know I get it wrong almost most of time

Wol recommends a book.

Wol Euler: let me recommend a novel related to questioning assumptions, btw: "The dice man" by Luke Rhinehart.
Geo Netizen: It is good for me to be reminded :)
Geo Netizen: Thanks Wol
Umbriel Levenque: thank you Wol. will make a note on my reading list
Wol Euler: executive summary: He creates a new "religion" of not following any practice or habit or assumption, but letting his every action be determined ty tossing dice.
Wol Euler: quite amusing, and thought-provoking too.
Umbriel Levenque: sounds it
Solobill Laville: Sounds like a reality show
Wol Euler: heheheh
Geo Netizen: I’d think that system would quickly end in death
Solobill Laville: Depends on how the "actions" are determined, I would guess
Wol Euler: the novel ends pretty abruptly, yes.
Solobill Laville: oh, there you go!
Solobill Laville: Geez, thanks, Wol, now I don't have to read it ;)
Wol Euler: pah.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Wol Euler: I didn't give away any more than you wouldn't have learned on page 4.
Solobill Laville: hehe

Here I decided to ask Wol about a log I had just read between her and Storm...but things quickly get crazy!

Solobill Laville: So, Wol...
Wol Euler: mm?
Faenik: why not?
Umbriel Levenque: so assumptions done... what's next Quilty?
Wol Euler: world peace? can we solve that in 17 minutes?
Solobill Laville: I was reading back a few logs, and saw on titled something like "Wol gets APAPB"
Quilty Bookmite: I don't have a list.
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Solobill Laville: How did your assumptions play in to that, before?
Quilty Bookmite: How about - Jaffa cakes - cake or biscuit?
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Umbriel Levenque: No man is an island
Wol Euler: oooh, jaffa cakes. yes please.
Solobill Laville shakes his head
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Quilty Bookmite passes Wol a jaffa cake.
Solobill Laville: man these Friday afternoon sessions... :))
Wol Euler: heheheheheheh
Wol Euler: mnomm mnommm
Geo Netizen: Anyone for Banan Nut Muffins?
Solobill Laville: Just tryin' to pull it all together here... :))
Wol Euler applauds. My hero!
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry *hangs head*
Solobill Laville: ooh, that does sound good, I think I may have one ready
Banana Nut Muffin whispers: Hmmm, a fresh baked muffin!
Wol Euler: !

Out come the drinks!

GreenTea(Matcha): Mmmhh... enjoy the best green tea Quilty Bookmite
Sake (koshu) whispers: Enjoy the best sake Geo Netizen
Umbriel Levenque goes to the kitchen and fetches his Bavarian Weissbier
Quilty Bookmite: Sounds good.
Newcastle Ale Mug : Ice Cold Draught mmmmm!
Quilty Bookmite: I'll stick with tea though.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Solobill Laville: So, I covered Pia's Saturday morning session, now there's a different demographic!
Solobill Laville: I had post-party vampires showing up...hehe
Umbriel Levenque: :-) more alert that bunch?
Wol Euler chuckles. And the 7pm's, where threedee and adelene do philosophy.
Solobill Laville: exactly!
Solobill Laville: :)
Wol Euler: 4 a.m. for me :-(
Solobill Laville: This must be the wind-down session...
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Quilty Bookmite: And 3 a.m. for me

Isen drops in.

Wol Euler: hello isen
Umbriel Levenque: yep 3 am for me too
Quilty Bookmite: Well, it is POETS day
Geo Netizen: Hi Isen
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Solobill Laville: Hey, Isen!
Isen Enzo: Greetings gates!
Wol Euler: ha! haven't heard that in ages.
Isen Enzo: Poet's day?
Wol Euler chuckles
Umbriel Levenque: Quilty I haven't had alcohol for months (except a half glass of wine a few weeks ago) since coming to PaB
Quilty Bookmite: The polite version...
Faenik: ah :)
Quilty Bookmite: Push Off Early Tomorrows Saturday.
Wol Euler: :-)
Solobill Laville: Wow, Umbriel, that is something, er, is it?
Umbriel Levenque: yeah... this beer was bought for me... haven't bought alcohol myself really
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Isen.
Quilty Bookmite: I have had the odd whisky.
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, I didn't notice your arrival.
Wol Euler: Laphroaig, for instance: very odd.
Isen Enzo: odd whisky?
Wol Euler: boom boom
Umbriel Levenque: thought you took precepts and all Quilty
Solobill Laville: Really, what's so odd about it? nyuk, nyuk
Quilty Bookmite: What's odd about it?
Isen Enzo: rimshot!
Wol Euler: ah the old jokes are the best
Umbriel Levenque: John Simpson loves that stuff
Umbriel Levenque: real strong Solo
Quilty Bookmite: It is an acquired taste.
Solobill Laville: :) and peaty
Umbriel Levenque: according to Simpson, life is somewhat sad when one needs to drink water :-)
Wol Euler: ah :)
Geo Netizen: Agreed :))
Solobill Laville thinks, hmmm, I'm drinking water now...
Umbriel Levenque: (instead of achohol for him that is I infer)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Geo Netizen: Wine fruit of the vine, work of human hands and nectar of the gods!
Solobill Laville: Indeed
Wol Euler raise her stein in salute
Geo Netizen: Say Wol… you’re slamming them back pretty seriously over there :)
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Wol Euler hiccups.
Quilty Bookmite: Well, it's Friday, why not?
Geo Netizen: Yes ... why not ...
Solobill Laville: there aren't many dainty alcohol comsuming anims I've seen in SL... :)
Wol Euler: true dat.
Solobill Laville: And, you know, it's Wol
Sake (koshu) whispers: Enjoy the best sake Geo Netizen
Umbriel Levenque: yes
Wol Euler laughs and thwaps you with a pillow.
Umbriel Levenque: :-) it is Wol yes
Quilty Bookmite: She always seemed such a delicate flower to me.
Wol Euler wonders what that means...
Solobill Laville: does this con-farned auto-recording thingy work yet?
Wol Euler: short answer: no.
Solobill Laville: long answer? no
Solobill Laville: hehe
Wol Euler: longer answer: sometimes, but not often enough.
Quilty Bookmite: noooooooooo?
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Wol Euler: it sometimes doesn't start itself, and I can't figure out why.
Umbriel Levenque: 'delicate flower'....
Faenik: indeed?
Wol Euler: fu@*&!' right I am.
Solobill Laville: hehe
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Geo Netizen: Faenik can sometimes sound intelligent
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Adams
Faenik: ^^
Solobill Laville: When we met, WOl's avatar actually beat up my avatar behind the Tea House
Wol Euler: hello adams, nice to see you.
Wol Euler: lol
Geo Netizen: Hi Adams
Wol Euler: did not, you tripped.
Umbriel Levenque: oh
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Solobill Laville: Hey, Adams!
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone. Not my most graceful entrance :)
Wol Euler: it's another silly session, I'm afraid.
Geo Netizen: Lag's bad again today
Geo Netizen: Hey I thought we did a good job with asumptions
Geo Netizen: or did I just assume that?
Solobill Laville: hehe
Wol Euler: hahahah!
Umbriel Levenque: :-) we did indeed
Umbriel Levenque: I've learnt more at least

I suddenly levitated.

Solobill Laville: weeeee, I'm flyin'!
Umbriel Levenque: heheh
Quilty Bookmite: Solo did a saintly job. He's quite elevated.
Quilty Bookmite: And you haven't touched a drop.
Geo Netizen: Levitation …. I’m impressed
Umbriel Levenque: it's the sandwich
Adams Rubble: Oh, I must go already. Good to see you all :)
Solobill Laville: nope, just did, Guinness
Wol Euler: jet-propelled
Wol Euler: awwww, bye adams take care
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Solobill Laville: Bye adams
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Quilty Bookmite: I should be going.
Faenik: ah :)
Umbriel Levenque: yes about time
Solobill Laville: Good to see you Quilty
Geo Netizen: Bye Quilty
Wol Euler sighs and nods and drains her glass
Wol Euler: bye quilty, take care
Quilty Bookmite: Bye all.
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Umbriel Levenque: Good night/day to you
Umbriel Levenque: another enjoyable Solo session :-)
Wol Euler: very!
Geo Netizen: Goodbye Umbriel Pax et bonum
Wol Euler: ooh, floating too.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Geo Netizen: Okay …enuff sake for me …… thik I’ll call it a …. well … bie everyone …
Wol Euler: bye geo, enjoy the weekend.
Solobill Laville: Bye, Geo
Geo Netizen: You too ... bye all

One final thought...

Solobill Laville: you know, it is so interesting to how folks communicate one on one versus in a larger PaB group
Isen Enzo: yes
Wol Euler: mmhmm, very true.
Solobill Laville: just like RL, methinks
Isen Enzo: one on one is the way to go..
Isen Enzo: methinks
Wol Euler: easier than RL in some ways, Cal and Maxine talked about that recently
Isen Enzo: dokusan!
Wol Euler: mm?
Solobill Laville: true, that Isen
Solobill Laville: one on one
Isen Enzo: well, I'm gonna take my thousand yard stare..
Isen Enzo: and away
Wol Euler: ah
Solobill Laville: but there is a different dynamic of course
Wol Euler: bye isen, enjoy the weekend
Solobill Laville: OK, bye Isen, maybe I'll make it later
Isen Enzo: Thanks for the Heart Sutra
Solobill Laville: yw
Solobill Laville: I have many more...
Isen Enzo: Bye for now
Solobill Laville: Bye
Wol Euler: mm?
Isen Enzo: Blessings
Wol Euler: ah
Solobill Laville: ty, to you as well, Isen