2008.10.24 19:00 - Moral Matters

Adelene was the guardian for the evening. She had no comments to add.

Adelene Dawner: Hi, Steve :)
Adelene Dawner is observing a particularly intense pattern on the other screen, so is not really 'here'
Adelene Dawner: but I may be soon.
stevenaia Michinaga: I seem to be completely black tonight with blond hair, what do you see?
Bell: *ding*
Adelene Dawner: Yup, that - the new client seems to show black instead of grey for rezzing textures.
stevenaia Michinaga: well black is the new...cloud
Adelene Dawner: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: is Three coming tonight?
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: oh speak of the lion
Threedee Shepherd: you called ...
stevenaia Michinaga: questions Three... do you know a Judith E. Grisel from Boulder?
stevenaia Michinaga: Dr., rather
stevenaia Michinaga: she studied in your fiend in Boulder
Threedee Shepherd: Not immediately, say more
stevenaia Michinaga: field
stevenaia Michinaga: she's a friend of Rowan, now teaches ar Furman in SC
Threedee Shepherd: She may have been a PostDoc here, and I did not know here. Just saw her web site and did not recognize
stevenaia Michinaga: jsut checking oh how small the world is
stevenaia Michinaga: on
stevenaia Michinaga: or at least the field you are in
Threedee Shepherd: very, actually
Adelene Dawner apologizes for the interuption but she's about to vibrate right out of her skin over this. "Three, Elizer needs to be emailed. Further reading has confirmed that this will take more NT-style finessing than I'm capable of. We need to talk later. Ok?"
Threedee Shepherd: OK
stevenaia Michinaga: ok.., maybe I;ll have texture by then
Threedee Shepherd: you look more enigmatic this way
Threedee Shepherd: .
stevenaia Michinaga: rebake worked, jsut like the old days
Threedee Shepherd: not on my screen
stevenaia Michinaga: happy to look enigmatic for you
Adelene Dawner leans into Three.
Threedee Shepherd: rezzed now
Threedee Shepherd: I had lunch today with someone (who is not in SL) who would fit in here at PaB. He stards from the position thet *nothing MATTERS*
stevenaia Michinaga: and what does he do for a living?
Bell: *ding*
Threedee Shepherd: leads meditation groups and writes software
Threedee Shepherd: In the sense that "everything arises perfectly" he is right
stevenaia Michinaga: I tend to agree with that, but not that it doesn;t matter, jsut that whatever happens happens
Threedee Shepherd: ok, that's the opening I wanted ^.^ If whatever happens, happens, in the grand scheme of things, why does anything matter?
stevenaia Michinaga: I always seem to step into the path of an oncomming question
Adelene Dawner: It was directed at me, I'm sure, Steve.
stevenaia Michinaga: mumbles, I knew that...
Threedee Shepherd: at both actually
Adelene Dawner: No, no way you could have - Three is aware of my current reading and you are not.
stevenaia Michinaga: but for things to happen and not matter wouldn;t entropy take over until nothing happens and things would matter less?
stevenaia Michinaga: we would all watch nothing matter until... well nothing happens
Threedee Shepherd: that is the eventual end state, unless there is a "big bounce" billions of years from now ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: so yes, but shoudl we hasten that?
Adelene Dawner: Things have meaning iff we give them meaning.
Threedee Shepherd: exactly.
stevenaia Michinaga: who slipped emaning into the conversation?
stevenaia Michinaga: meaning
Threedee Shepherd: matter implies meaning
stevenaia Michinaga: thinking....
stevenaia Michinaga: if it does not matter, it still has meaning
stevenaia Michinaga: so everything has meaning whether it matters or not
Threedee Shepherd: .
Threedee Shepherd: Meaning is something we impute, it is not implicit to the thing/event/situation that happens
stevenaia Michinaga: agreed
Threedee Shepherd: So nothing *has* meaning
stevenaia Michinaga: so "nothing matters" has it's own meaning as well
Bell: *ding*
stevenaia Michinaga: so it is meaning that makes things happen
Threedee Shepherd: not trying to be puzzzling, I would restate as follows: nothing HAS implicit meqaning and thus nothing matters implicitely, as well. We imput matters the same way we impute meaning.
stevenaia Michinaga: so how does your friend "act" on what he thinks nothing matter means?
Threedee Shepherd: by the wy, looots of lag and dropped bits
stevenaia Michinaga: haven;t noticed
Threedee Shepherd: as best I can tell, morally
stevenaia Michinaga: and don;t we all stive for that?
stevenaia Michinaga: strive
Threedee Shepherd: (aside to Steve: the ' key is immediately to the RIGHT of the ; key) ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: yes. why?
Threedee Shepherd: that is, Yes. Why do we?
stevenaia Michinaga: why do we.... especially if nothing matters
Adelene Dawner: why not?
Threedee Shepherd: exactly, and why do so many different cultures define *morally* in roughly similar ways?
Threedee Shepherd: Ade, actually in this case "Why Not?" is the same question as "Why?" ^.^
Adelene Dawner: sounds like a question whose answer is 'memes' in some form.
stevenaia Michinaga: memes?
Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
Threedee Shepherd: A meme (pronounced /miːm/)[1] consists of any idea or behavior that can pass from one person to another by learning or imitation. Examples include thoughts, ideas, theories, gestures, practices, fashions, habits, songs, and dances. Memes propagate themselves and can move through the cultural sociosphere in a manner similar to the contagious behavior of a virus.
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm
Adelene Dawner: "Memeticists argue that the memes most beneficial to their hosts will not necessarily survive; rather, those memes that replicate the most effectively spread best, which allows for the possibility that successful memes may prove detrimental to their hosts."
stevenaia Michinaga: when why not immorlity as well, seems to work in some places
Adelene Dawner: For similar reasons, memes don't have to be true to be widespread.
Threedee Shepherd is Offline
stevenaia Michinaga: Three departed?
Adelene Dawner: probably crashed.
stevenaia Michinaga: well I am no moral philosopher, but I suspect it probably reals to doing the least amount of harm done to another
stevenaia Michinaga: relates
Threedee Shepherd is Online
Adelene Dawner: hold on
stevenaia Michinaga: wb
Adelene Dawner: [19:43] stevenaia Michinaga: well I am no moral philosopher, but I suspect it probably reals to doing the least amount of harm done to another
stevenaia Michinaga: relates
stevenaia Michinaga: otherwise there would be no one to continue
Bell: *ding*
Threedee Shepherd: serioius SL crash that practically locked up my computer
stevenaia Michinaga: an unfortunate side affect of Sl
Threedee Shepherd: Ah, so *moral* behavior is better for the perpetuation of a social animal, than immoral bvehavior?
stevenaia Michinaga: well if everyone would kill each other... i'd say yes
Threedee Shepherd: kill is extreme, there are levels less than that. And sharks are neither moral or immoral and usually don't eat other sharks
stevenaia Michinaga: few creatures do
stevenaia Michinaga: not sure why
Threedee Shepherd: stealing is easier than working for it. Look at all those tribes that plundered in the middle ages.
Threedee Shepherd: "[19:47] stevenaia Michinaga: few creatures do
tevenaia Michinaga: not sure why"
xample of natural selection at work ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: well not just then, and they were good christians with the rule of law too
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Threedee Shepherd: So, I guess we agree with the rather mundane explanation to why human tend to be morel: Because it works.
Threedee Shepherd: moral
stevenaia Michinaga: but wouldn;t natural selection lead the stronge to prevail?
Threedee Shepherd: Although sometimes with all the shit that's piled on us, I do feel like a morel ;)
Threedee Shepherd: For not eating your own kind: Those that did tended to have a lower longterm contribution to the gene pool, or their species died out due to cannibalism even before natural selection has time to "act"
stevenaia Michinaga: but why would immorality not prevail?
Adelene Dawner: Because it doesn't *work*.
Adelene Dawner: Any sexually-reproducing species has to be at least minimally social.
stevenaia Michinaga: well two of them have to
Adelene Dawner: So there're pressures because of that to form *some* kind of functional social pattern.
Threedee Shepherd: if 2 --> 4--->8---> in a social species, minimal behaviors need to prevail
stevenaia Michinaga: I would certainly agree, however tehre are other ways to reproduce not invoolving the willing
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, and there are many species that are not *social* in the sense of the phrase *social primate*
Adelene Dawner: 'functional' doesn't always mean 'nice' but it does seem like rape is not the most efficient method of distributing genes - if it was, it'd be more common.
stevenaia Michinaga: well look at stalinist russia, not a pleasent place if you happen to disagree with his moral character
Threedee Shepherd: rape is less common only recently. In fact, it's how mongols spread their genes throughout asia and eastern europe
Bell: *ding*
Adelene Dawner shrugs.
stevenaia Michinaga: and most conquoring (im-moral) tibes
Adelene Dawner: That seems to imply that "[19:55] stevenaia Michinaga: but why would immorality not prevail?" is not the right question.
Threedee Shepherd: Either that, or morality has little to due with reproductive behavior
Adelene Dawner: 'reproductive behavior' is a lot more complicated than you might expect, in a species that takes over a decade to mature.
Threedee Shepherd: cheating and stealing don't work on a mass scale because if everyone did it, there would be nothing produced to steal. Reproduction is different from that
stevenaia Michinaga: it would seem so
Threedee Shepherd: So the creationists are right (he said tongue in cheek) when they say "Because God said so" except they have the wrong god, and don't realize that Darwin is god ^.^
Adelene Dawner grins at Three. ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: I wonder if Immoral people ahve the same conversations?
Adelene Dawner: ... 'immoral people'?
Threedee Shepherd: good question. They have rationalizations that explain away their immorality.
stevenaia Michinaga: you know, "those" peole
Adelene Dawner: No, I don't know. What are you talking about?
Threedee Shepherd: As in The Mafia
stevenaia Michinaga: they must set up the rules, this good person is bad, send them to the SIberia
Threedee Shepherd: Or, crime syndicates, or street gangs (Crips and Bloods), etc.
Adelene Dawner rather suspects that they're doing the best they know how, just like everyone else. Or are you talking about something else? If so, please define your terms...
Threedee Shepherd: And, with great subtlety, Adelene has led us back to the initial point; Nothing Matters ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: from their perspective, you are probably correct
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: I suspected it was just a matter of time
Adelene Dawner: Well, Steve, why should my perspective be more relevant than theirs?
stevenaia Michinaga: because it is yours
Adelene Dawner: ...so?
stevenaia Michinaga: so, it matters to you, not them
Threedee Shepherd: OK, so here is another way to look at it. Is length of life a useful concept?
Adelene Dawner: hm... a rephrasing. What basis do I have to think of my judgement of them as 'immoral' is more true than their judgement of themselves as 'moral'?
stevenaia Michinaga: it;s all relative since both perspectives exist
stevenaia Michinaga: length of life... not useful since it only eacists for the dead
stevenaia Michinaga: exists
stevenaia Michinaga: and anyone's could end tomarrow
Threedee Shepherd: As Socrates might have said: Would you agree, Idioticus, that all else being equal it is better to live a long than a short life?"
stevenaia Michinaga: better for who?
Threedee Shepherd: for the one living it
stevenaia Michinaga: we are wired to continue
Threedee Shepherd: and in a social group, for the group as well
Bell: *ding*
stevenaia Michinaga: but we (humans) didn't always live as long as we do now
Threedee Shepherd: you have not answered the question!
stevenaia Michinaga: we live as long as we do, some of us accomplish more in a short life than ohers do in a long life
stevenaia Michinaga: the answer... it doesn;t matter
Threedee Shepherd: nihilist!
stevenaia Michinaga: haha
stevenaia Michinaga: even if it does, we couldn;t do much about it
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm not sure living forever would be best, of longer was better
Threedee Shepherd: Plato would have had Socrates take that opening response of "Yes, of course", replied Idioticus and gottn all the way to showing that human *PROGRESS* existed and was good.
Adelene Dawner jerks awake for the third time, purrs sleepily in Three's general direction, and wordlessly teleports home.