2010.02.14 13:00 - Opening to authentic feelings

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

This is one of those PaB sessions which goes on for two hours or possibly a bit more, engaging the participants in speaking about the inner loneliness which we can carry and the fears which make it difficult to open up.  But once openning, how deepening the experience can be.  

I could only be present for the first hour but the reader will see the strands of conversation continue creatively needing no commentary.

The session began on this Valentine's Day with some slight melancholy: Fael brought floating hearts and others quiet warmth, but as the chatlog unfolds we came upon deeper feelings, which actually we all could relate to.  As I came to the Pavilion I saw Wol who openly shared her underlying feelings 

Wol Euler: hello maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Wol, very nice to see you
Wol Euler smiles. Thank you, Maxine. Likewise.
Maxine Walden: like your academic atmosphere
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: it suits my mood tonight
Wol Euler: I'm feeling a bit too weakly for the tough look.
Maxine Walden: ah...contemplative? philosophical?
Wol Euler: worn down :)
Wol Euler: mellow
Maxine Walden: oh, so sorry...mellow...maybe open for gentle new discoveries
Wol Euler smiles.
Maxine Walden: rather than the block-busting ones
Maxine Walden: I gather you had a very good experience at the recent retreat?
Maxine Walden: personal experience
Wol Euler: well ... yes I did
Wol Euler: and a pretty hellish middle of the week after it.
Wol Euler: hello yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Maxine Walden: oh, so sorry...what happened that is sharable?
Maxine Walden: hi, Yaku
Wol Euler: I've talked about this already, my friday morning session with Cal and Liza, so it's not private.
Wol Euler: I fell into a pretty deep pit of despair and self-loathing :)
Maxine Walden: ah...sounds very painful and debilitating perhaps
Wol Euler: it was pretty grim, yes.
Maxine Walden: do you think it had anything to do with aftermath from the retreat, rebound phenomenon or something of the like?
Wol Euler: exactly that, Maxine, it was a delayed effect of the retreat
Wol Euler: comparing the experience there to my life here.
Wol Euler: it felt absurd and hopeless to try to achieve that clarity in my RL
Wol Euler: and I condemned myself for being so weak and unable
Maxine Walden: ah...you may have fully explored that elsewhere, but I would appreciate hearing/thinking about it for learning ...you are writing about it now...and to have those wolfish voices of condemnation...as if praying on you
Maxine Walden: preying on you
Wol Euler: I'll send you in IM the URL of a blog post my typist wrote about it, before figuring out that it was "just" a feedback effect from the retreat
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Maxine Walden: Thanks, Wol, would love to read it...
Maxine Walden: hi, fael.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi fael
Fael Illyar: send me too :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eliza
Wol Euler: taski delek to you too, dear Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya, Fael, Maxine, Wol :))
Eliza Madrigal smiles THANKS
Eliza Madrigal: sorry.. hah brb
Fael Illyar: Hi Eliza :)
Fael Illyar: oh, nonmermaid adaptation :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) here now
Fael Illyar: the wing is now for sale at my shop :)
Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful glasses, Wol
Wol Euler: ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: Congrats, Fael :)) You are a good walking advertisement
Fael Illyar: doesn't help sales much :)
Maxine Walden: ah, sorry, Fael.

The first 90 second pause seemed to come surprisingly soon, catching me at least off guard a bit

--BELL--
Fael Illyar: Don't worry, I didn't expect it to sell much :)
Fael Illyar: at least not yet
Fael Illyar: I'm two weeks late putting valentine stuff for sale :P
Eliza Madrigal: :) It happens
Eliza Madrigal: They aren't just valentines wings though... cute for other times too
Eliza Madrigal: (oops, sorry bell)
Fael Illyar: yes :)

I note my being off guard and wonder aloud

Maxine Walden: sorry, late in claiming the log, talked through the 90 second pause...I must be distracted here today. anyone else as well?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler smiles and nods.
Eliza Madrigal: contagious it seems
Wol Euler: it's the Zeitgeist in action :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Maxine Walden: hmm, what may be going on? Sometimes in a group several feel the same thing, in my experience
Eliza Madrigal: My day has been like that generally... was supposed to be at a rl event right now....
Eliza Madrigal: looked at the clock and there wasn't enough time... very odd
Eliza Madrigal is normally compulsively early
Wol Euler nods.
Fael Illyar: Wol, about that blog post. You're not quite alone with things like that :)
Fael Illyar: we're having them in sync.
Wol Euler smiles. Thank you :) and I'm sorry to hear it.
Eliza Madrigal: blog post?
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Wol Euler: the day has flashed past me too, I've started many things and finished none of them.
Maxine Walden: hi, Ara
Wol Euler: hello ara
arabella Ella: Happy Valentine to all of you and a huge hug too regardless of whether you are single or in a relationship!
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Happy Valentine Ara
Eliza Madrigal: someone on twitter posted that it is "Singles Awareness Day"
Wol Euler: Happy new year too :)
arabella Ella: oh yes Happy New Year of the Tiger to you all too!
arabella Ella: cool hearts!
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Wol Euler: hello zen, happy singles day :)
Zen Arado: Hi all:)
Fael Illyar: Hi Zen :)
Zen Arado: singles day?
arabella Ella: Hiya Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen
arabella Ella: yes singles day of course!
Zen Arado: bad typists day !
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Wol Euler: :)
Zen Arado: how do you make yourself happy to suit a certain day?
Eliza Madrigal: It is my one year PaB anniversary too, so I feel like I should come up with something brilliant to say about it... hehe but nada... just feel happy about it.
arabella Ella: by adopting a happy attitude every day?
Wol Euler: hooray, happy PaB-day
Eliza Madrigal smiles widely. Thank you :))
arabella Ella: Happy Anniversary Eliza! Wow! Cool!
Zen Arado: sure..so I have to be unhappy all the other days then?
arabella Ella: 'a happy attitude every day' I said
arabella Ella: apologies i think i have bad chat lag
Eliza Madrigal: haha, Zen... actually there are people who advocate for that.. one day to be really angry and mean... the rest to be loving :)
Zen Arado: yes I am twisting what you said:)

After what seemed like a gathering of the pulse of the group, I wonder

Maxine Walden: You know, I am wondering whether we all might be feeling something worth sharing or putting words to: a kind of 'wish I were happier' or loneliness when we 'should be happier...' something like that?
Fael Illyar lets out a giganting, roating 'MEEEP!'
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: There is the recent retreat, and then this 'happy' Valentines Day...and sometimes I feel that I should be happier in these circumstanes...sure that everyone else is having a 'good time'.
arabella Ella feels the vibes in Fael's MEEP
Wol Euler nods and raises her hand.

Once again the 90 second pause and it seems we are beginning an important exploration about underlying feelings, following a lead from Wol

--BELL--
Fael Illyar: Hi Bert :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert :)
Zen Arado: Hi Bert :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bert
Zen Arado: agrees with Maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Bert
Wol Euler: hallo bert
Zen Arado: feel 'forced to be happy'
Wol Euler: being visibly unhappy feels like an admission of failure
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Zen Arado: as if it is something you switch on and off
Bertram Jacobus: (whoow - wol wears red!) ... :-)
Wol Euler: :)
Maxine Walden: that can feel so debilitating, wol; I know that feeling
Wol Euler: it's absolute crap, of course (pardon my french) but society is set up in that way, there is a tremendous pressure to look and act happy and fulfilled
Zen Arado: so we pretend
Maxine Walden: Yes...and to hide or deny the authentic pain we may be feeling inside
arabella Ella: yet most people are in similar situations as ours
Fael Illyar: not everyone could handle seeing it either though.
Bertram Jacobus: not all parts of "society" are like that ...
Wol Euler: yes,ara, that is the bitter joke of it :)
Fael Illyar: the cultural denial of the truth
Bertram Jacobus: hi liza :-)
Zen Arado: Hi Liza :)
arabella Ella: Hi Liza
Fael Illyar: Hi Liza :)
Maxine Walden: And perhaps we carry some internal 'society' within us which does not want to face our more authentic pain...as if that would be weakness rather than strength
Zen Arado: why am I smiling ? :)
Liza Deischer: hi all
Maxine Walden: hi, Liza
Wol Euler: hello liza
Fael Illyar: Maxine, yes, very much so.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Liza
Zen Arado: Sartre's inauthenticity
Fael Illyar: it's only that internal 'society' that needs to go.

Wol may be getting to the heart of an important point we who encounter the retreat experience all may face:

Wol Euler: I think that is part of what happened to me after the retreat, that after living without those compromises I saw myself mired in them here.
Maxine Walden: doubt that you were alone in that, Wol, feeling the mire after the freedom from such at the retreat
Eliza Madrigal nods, wow... yes. It can be painful to see that parts of one's life are buried... and can feel impossible to get to
Zen Arado: but even at a retreat don't you play a role a little?
Fael Illyar: Ah, so the retreat opened your eyes again
Wol Euler: sure! but a different one. A much cleaner one.
Wol Euler: you get a taste of a simple and clean and worthy life.
Wol Euler: and then come home and go back to work.
Zen Arado: we so want to please others and want them to like us
Zen Arado: or maybe that is just me :(
Wol Euler: no, zen, not at all "just you"
Eliza Madrigal: maybe it can be a good pain... and I don't say that to be dismissive AT ALL....
Maxine Walden: And if we could realize that 'going back to work' involves allowing those old mires...maybe that could be informing...and allow us to be more compassionate about our 'everyday' selves
Eliza Madrigal: but when I'm overwhelmed I often think "yeah, but I'm feeling something, seeing something"
Eliza Madrigal nods to Maxine
Wol Euler: true, maxine, and true eliza.
Fael Illyar: the mires need accepting, not hiding :)
Maxine Walden: Stim might suggest that we accept the mires as part of ourselves as well...yes, Fael
Maxine Walden: hi, Qt
arabella Ella: ciao Qt!
Zen Arado: yes Maxine
Qt Core: hi all
Wol Euler: I think that at least some of the distress I felt was due to the unexpectedness of this fall into the mire. I'd have been less shocked and dismayed if I had known that shock and dismay were possible results.
Wol Euler: hello qg
Zen Arado: accepting our unhappy times too
Wol Euler: *qt
Zen Arado: Hi Qt
Bertram Jacobus: there is a story from the famous author stanislaw lem : a crew is missed on a foreigen planet, where robots do mining works and a few people are stationed. another crew goes there to search the first crew. they disapper, too. the next one then finds out, that there was a disfunction of the robots and all humans had hidden themselfs behind robot masks because they all feared to get hurt or killed by the others ...
Fael Illyar: they're always possible results :)
Eliza Madrigal nods... I mentioned feeling a bit like that one day to Stim and he said "yes, I see, Good" or something to that affect
Maxine Walden: very good point, Wol. A falling into the pit without recognition that it might be coming
Wol Euler: Stim is so refreshingly bracing :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes and helpful to discuss for everyone and for future new retreaters. Thank you for that Wol
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: the danger is assuming they aren't :)
arabella Ella: it is true though that our daily life ... and work ... tends to bog us down so much
Maxine Walden: in my experience when I cannot think about a state of mind I am in, I feel condemned to 'being' in that state as if forever
arabella Ella: interesting story Bert :)
Wol Euler nods
Zen Arado: nods
Eliza Madrigal: yes, or fearful that you'll forget and it will just come up again around the corner....
Maxine Walden: until I can again think about where I have been
Zen Arado: we have natural cycles of ups and dwons
Zen Arado: downs
Maxine Walden: yes, do not want to make light of it, but maybe we should have in a retreat handbook, something like the letdown phenomena we are articulating
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, and weather! Wol you went from varying to snow snow snow, right? :)
Wol Euler: that too :) from relative warmth and bright sun to grey dull dark blah.
Eliza Madrigal: that's a wonderful idea actually, Maxine
--BELL--
arabella Ella: each retreat has a different 'personality' ... at the last retreat we all felt very natural with each other ... but we were i admit in a 'safe' haven
Wol Euler: though actually Lia and Bert and Yaku did too
Zen Arado: good article on 'allowing disturbing states' http://www.beyond-karma.com/how-to/a...urbing-states/
Maxine Walden: thanks for the link, Zen
Eliza Madrigal: Bert, Ara, Ya... May I ask if you have felt at all as Wol has?
Eliza Madrigal: If too personal, please don't answer....
Eliza Madrigal: but I wondered post-retreat
arabella Ella: i had felt like Wol feels on another occasion ... perhaps i was prepared this time around ... and my life situation is different too
Zen Arado: I usually feel very peaceful and calm for a few days after a zen retreat
Zen Arado: but I don't have to go back to work
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, shoot.... unexpected company
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye guys
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
Maxine Walden: encountering the unexpected, perhaps, whether company (Eliza just now) or feeling states especially after such a lovely retreat experience...the unexpected can trigger various 'old stuff'
Maxine Walden: of maybe interesting new stuff...but just thinking of the 'unexpected' can be slightly jarring
arabella Ella: oh yes it certainly can as it is a time for reflection
Zen Arado: a retreat is an 'up' and so has a corresponding 'down'?
arabella Ella: a retreat is a safe place where you put aside your daily worries and stresses ... which you have to immerse yourself in once again after the retreat
Liza Deischer: but why the 'up' and why the 'down'?
Maxine Walden: hmm, yes, ara

Yakuzza offers some of his experience after the retreat

Yakuzza Lethecus: i was asking myself during the reatreat how it would be after the retreat how i could take the things i felt over to real life and how to keep up with my unauthenthicity since i told everyone that i am on malta on vacation or some even that i meet some friends from sl but nobody that it´s a retreat
Bertram Jacobus: "why" leads to eternity ... ;-)
Zen Arado: dropping daily worries gives an 'up'?
Yakuzza Lethecus: the retreat was so safe and secure, but it´s a problem for me to talk about my thoughts in real life often
Zen Arado: but why worry any time ?
Wol Euler nods to Yaku.
Liza Deischer: Bertram, of couse that is not what i mean
Liza Deischer: becasue we do Zen
arabella Ella: please go on Yaku ... you can explain things well here too :)

The hour had flown for me and I had to go, leaving what felt like a discussion which had just begun.

Maxine Walden: Have to go to another meeting, and don't want to interrupt this conversation...look forward to picking up the log and 'seeing how it comes out' as it were. So much to think about in this area
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye maxine
Maxine Walden: bye all
arabella Ella: bye Maxine
Wol Euler: bye maxine, thank you.
Zen Arado: I wonder if I still did a lot of meditation all the time, not just at retreats, could I preserve my peacefulness  bye Maxine
Zen Arado: wb Eliza
Wol Euler: wb elza
Liza Deischer: wb eliza
Qt Core: rl calling with some insistence, have to go, bye
arabella Ella: bye Qt
Zen Arado: bye Qt
Wol Euler: bye qt, buona notte
Liza Deischer: bye QT
Eliza Madrigal: thanks :) Now on lap top
arabella Ella: wb Eliza!
Fael Illyar: wb Eliza :)
arabella Ella: I can really identify with what Wol said even though ... for various reasons ... I did not have this experience this time around
arabella Ella: but it is tough to move from a safe and caring environment with trusted friends back to the stresses of work and the conflicts which may arise
Eliza Madrigal: yes it seems like something universal, though sometimes a turning point for some... time of re=evaluating etc
Eliza Madrigal nods to ara
Eliza Madrigal admits to one good cry after returning from Princeton in Nov :)
Wol Euler smiles and nods.
Zen Arado: I think it is worse if you have a spell in hospital where you are the center of care and attention and have to go back to living alone caring for yourself
arabella Ella nods
Wol Euler nods thoughtfully. In my case that was part of it, yes. I hadn'T thought of that before.

The discussion identifies the isolation of RL after a rich, sharing retreat experience

Eliza Madrigal: hm.. feeling of isolation Zen?
Zen Arado: this was a long time ago
Zen Arado: but I remember being depressed for a while
Wol Euler: going from the retreat where we could talk freely and calmly about almost anything, to having nobody to talk about it with (as Yaku said)
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes
Zen Arado: different to a zen retreat which is silent :)
Zen Arado: I miss the silence
Wol Euler: different but surely also very similar :)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: yes
Liza Deischer: is it about sharing or about opening things, or both maybe?
Wol Euler: what's missing is the community not the words-coming-out-of-my-mouth
Zen Arado: yes I suppose
Liza Deischer: the feeling of people around you with the same ideas about life, sharing it in different ways (not anly talking) ?
arabella Ella: the feeling one gets of a supportive and trusting environment
Zen Arado: and freedom from cooking etc
Zen Arado: but I find zen retreats very difficult too
Eliza Madrigal: play as being is very unique... we're so close under the av-skin, so to speak....
Wol Euler nods.
Liza Deischer: yes
Zen Arado: so many hours just meditating
Eliza Madrigal: feels like getting to see your self only a few times or once, a year... maybe an exaggeration but not too much
Eliza Madrigal: or never...
Eliza Madrigal: it seems a new challenge for this setting
Zen Arado: see my racing mind that never stops....
Liza Deischer: i think so too Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Wol did you feel like that after the blissful wedding?
Wol Euler: heh, yes, there was something similar. That was rather sad and wistfl than the crushing loathing I felt this time
Wol Euler: the common ground was the missing community.
Wol Euler: *missing the community
Wol Euler: try that again.
--BELL--
arabella Ella: I think what we are discussing here also involves the way in which the work / life balance today seems to have changed so much ... work stress can get to us anywhere all the time ... we are always connected
Eliza Madrigal: true ara... and disconnect within relationships offline too..
arabella Ella: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: it shows up some things
arabella Ella: which results in more of a 'loss of community' in our daily RL TOO
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Wol Euler: yep
Zen Arado: nods
arabella Ella: except of course for the communities with which we have responsibilities to interact with
arabella Ella: family and work mainly
arabella Ella: but that is more of a 'must' or 'have to' responsibility
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm, i partly disagree, there have been some discussions in which I´ve been more confident after being able to elaborate upon these topics in second life
Eliza Madrigal: strangely some of us I think, compartmentalize more, offline
Wol Euler: SL is a way of practicing other styles of being
arabella Ella nods
Wol Euler: I would never have gone on a retreat without having been in this group first.
Zen Arado: surprising
Yakuzza Lethecus: second life can be very complementary, but i still don´t know where the ideal line is and i am even scared to have just one group in second life or to be too focused on one person
arabella Ella: it is amazing how much trust and respect we build in this group
Bertram Jacobus: sry, i wasn´t very present - but ty all anyway ! have a good time and - may all beings be happy, please (!) ...
Wol Euler: bye bert, schlaf gut
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes I guess it always varies... I definitely talk to more 'strangers' now
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bert
Wol Euler: yes, eliza, me too.
Fael Illyar: I'm quite a bit readier to speak with people I don't know than before :)
Wol Euler: do you find that they are very happy to be spoken to?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, almost always... refreshing surprise
arabella Ella: generally yes
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Fael Illyar: I remember scaring one older lady in the bus, talking to her since I thought she looked familiar.
Eliza Madrigal: :) That's a gift
arabella Ella: (although Germany may be different)
Zen Arado: but doean't that vary with where you live in RL?
Wol Euler: oh no, it works here too :)))
arabella Ella: ah
arabella Ella smiles
Zen Arado: I live in a small towm where everyone speaks to you
Yakuzza Lethecus: but for me there is also the issue that it´s easier to talk to strangers then to ppl who have actually meaning for me
Eliza Madrigal: I look people more deeply in the eyes too.. which I was surprised to hear others talking about in a log... like there is an eye hunger
Zen Arado: would be different if I lived in London
Wol Euler nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i usually liked the issue that everyone isn't close by around here
arabella Ella: i must go bye everyone and thanks for the interesting discussion!
Wol Euler: bye ara, take care
Liza Deischer: bye ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
Wol Euler: 'night yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, when we lose someone we love it often helps to reflect on how wonderful it was to know them at all... guess it can be a little the same... back to good sadness :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: yes
Fael Illyar: yes... consider it a loan, not owned.
Zen Arado: all so temporary....
Zen Arado: I don't think I knew anyone here a year ago
Wol Euler: :)
Liza Deischer: I think you talk about compassing Eliza
Wol Euler: and now you have a community.
Fael Illyar smiles.
Liza Deischer: which is quite important
Liza Deischer: *compassiong
Liza Deischer: compassion
Fael Illyar: hmm, I think Eliza and Wol are going to the same glasses shop :)
Eliza Madrigal: for ourselves you mean Liza? foibles and worries and sadness and all ? :)
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and typos and messes, large scale and otherwise?
Liza Deischer: yes, you have this silent, smooth sadness, like excepting it
Liza Deischer: and the one that makes you restless
Wol Euler: foibles and worries and sadness, oh my ;)
Eliza Madrigal: what else can we do :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe Wol
Liza Deischer: and is hunting you
--BELL--
Wol Euler: we two might be the only ones who get that reference :)
Zen Arado: 'silent, smooth sadness'
Liza Deischer: I on't quite get what you mean wol
Zen Arado: hmmmm....
Liza Deischer: you know that zen?
Wol Euler: it was a movie reference, to the Wizard of Oz.
Zen Arado: no I didn't :)

Eliza touches on something very significant about openness with pain amidst friends

Eliza Madrigal: I may be very wrong, but I think it goes together in some way... when you open up to others, it brings both joy and sadness... at once
Wol Euler: as Dorothy and crew make their way through the forest towards Oz, they work themselves into a lather of fear
Wol Euler: saying "lions and tigers and bears, oh my!"
Liza Deischer: ah!
Liza Deischer: I think wo Eliza
Liza Deischer: so
Eliza Madrigal: and when you see the difference between that and being ' numb' it feels hm, good overall somehow... hah
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Liza Deischer: well waid
Liza Deischer: said
Zen Arado: so hard to be open
Zen Arado: maybe harder for men
Liza Deischer: I'm not so sure Zen :-)
Eliza Madrigal: or in different ways
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: I can see that it might be, sure.
Zen Arado: men tend to be more afraid of showing emotion
Wol Euler: Being brought up to be silent and strong, and equating emotion to weakness
Zen Arado: yes Wol
Wol Euler: (when I was growing up at .least)
Eliza Madrigal: the feeling of putting on a happy face might be stronger in some settings... to be responsible for everyone else's comfort first...
Liza Deischer: at the same time, society fit the way of men better, leaving women 'behind' with their sensitivity
Zen Arado: yes agree with that too Liza
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: sensitivity is so misunderstood
Zen Arado: macho society
Zen Arado: even yet
Eliza Madrigal: its a ferociously powerful thing
Wol Euler nods. The *inferiority* of displaying any emotion ( except anger, that was OK for men)
Liza Deischer: it is, but when it can't express itself, it can turn into a distructive power, mostly used upon themselfs, ourselfs
Eliza Madrigal nods
Liza Deischer: (but I agree with you too Zen)
Zen Arado: violent outbursts
Zen Arado: beating up their partner
Liza Deischer: outburst mibht be, but that is more manlike
Liza Deischer: depression is another way of 'self'destruction
Zen Arado: yes
Liza Deischer: or any negative feeling about yourself
Zen Arado: inward anger
Liza Deischer: yes
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Liza Deischer: or pointed at yourself
Eliza Madrigal: yes, there is a spectrum to consider...
Eliza Madrigal: and a timeline
Eliza Madrigal: numbness can be depression too
Liza Deischer: yes
Zen Arado: never experienced that one though
Wol Euler: definitely
Liza Deischer: but numbness is a way of not wanting to feel
Liza Deischer: most of the time there hides aggresion
Liza Deischer: underneath it
Liza Deischer: and other feelings of course
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and a feeling of not being able to 'be' ...
Zen Arado: like burying yourself in distractions or work?
Liza Deischer: yes (both to Eliza and Zen)
Eliza Madrigal: you know I have a special relationship with my grandfather for instance, but he shows little respect for my practices and such... sometimes I feel sad when I'm around him...
Eliza Madrigal: because I can share so little
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: without there being an argument or something.. it creates such a tension....
Eliza Madrigal: authenticity? Consideration?
Liza Deischer: that's painful Eliza
Zen Arado: my grandfather died about 50 years ago :(
Wol Euler gives your hand a squeeze.
Eliza Madrigal: thank you wol :) That helps...
Zen Arado: you are at least lucky he is still around
Eliza Madrigal: and seems a part of that disconnect between what we find here...
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I know zen, which IS makes it impossible sometimes...
Zen Arado: sorry that is a bit insensitive Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Does he know me? Or just this aspect/compartment of safe me?
Wol Euler: safe is probably the right word.
Wol Euler: that other stuff you do threatens him in some way
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: hard for old ppl to adjust to your changes
Eliza Madrigal: seems a familiar tightrope
Eliza Madrigal: and not just on that level... it seeps everywhere... sometimes causes me to avoid him like a child... then feel bad, etc.
Liza Deischer: yes, but whatver the reason is, and how much we can understand why somebody is acting in a certain way, it is still painful
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler nods.
Zen Arado: yes
Liza Deischer: and it is not easy to deal with that
Eliza Madrigal: there are says I step on pab ledges with him and it works wonderously
Eliza Madrigal: *days
Eliza Madrigal: but not always :)
Liza Deischer: and hope and fear get in, going up and down
Eliza Madrigal nods!
Zen Arado: I find this with friends even
Zen Arado: SL is in a compaetment they wouldn't understand
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: as is zen Buddhism
Zen Arado: so I keep quiet about that when I am ith them
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, thinks of my grandfather's feeling toward deities and such... oh me oh my :)
Zen Arado: even the word ' meditation' horrifies some
Eliza Madrigal: he's well meaning but that would be so unfamiliar and frightening I think
Liza Deischer: but somehow we have this childish wish (I have) somebody is out there that understands us completely
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Eliza Madrigal: :)) good point Liza
Fael Illyar: Always a challenge to find the common language with a generation gap :)
Wol Euler: which is what happens when we fall in love :)
Eliza Madrigal: sigh
Zen Arado: and we get disappointed again :(
Liza Deischer: is that what happens, or is that wishfull thinking, (refering to falling in love)
Zen Arado: true too Fael
Wol Euler: um, I meant that the wish to be fully understood happens, we think "ah, this is my soulmate who will understand me!"
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and I do make compromises for him I wouldn't make for someone as a friend, etc...
Fael Illyar: the only way to truly be understood is behind sweat and sometimes blood.
Liza Deischer: ah yes wol
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Liza Deischer: family is different then a friend in a way, they were there when you were raised
Liza Deischer: children make deeper connetions
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi.
Liza Deischer: hi lawrence
Zen Arado: Hi Lawrence
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and it would be wrong to expect a drastic leap...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lawrence
Wol Euler: hello lawrence
Lawrence Vyceratops: What's goin' on, guys? :)
Liza Deischer: true Eliza, but that is where we are good at: thinking for others
Liza Deischer: :-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh... there is recording happening at this time?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Serious day today... heh.. talking about disconnect and such
Eliza Madrigal: yes always Lawrence :)
Eliza Madrigal: heh
Eliza Madrigal: haha Liza, true!
Wol Euler: :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Is there a topic being discussed?
Liza Deischer: oh YES!
Wol Euler grins.
Liza Deischer: but hard to explain Lawrence
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: I'm afraid
Liza Deischer: the later it gets, it becomes more about connecting then about talking
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, true... funny
Lawrence Vyceratops: Communication becomes easier, through connection, right? ;)
Zen Arado: or vice versa
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes. :)
Zen Arado: soemtimes talkng is overated :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ha... yes.
Eliza Madrigal: I wonder if anyone here has had the experience of thinking "I absolutely cannot discuss___ with someone (insert name), but talking about it here
Eliza Madrigal: and then hearing yourself bring it up?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm new here... :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Lawrence Vyceratops: I mean, I've been only a few times.
Wol Euler: talking about it with the person you said you couldn't?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: I am aware of recording though :)
Eliza Madrigal: like some kind of hm, boldness kicks in
Wol Euler: yes, that has happened a few times.
Wol Euler: perhaps by thinking about talking about it, you realize that they would not react badly?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, or a kind of fear is broken down... deflating the subject as having as much power as you may have thought...
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Liza Deischer: yes, I know the experience in rl that is
Eliza Madrigal: maybe meditation does that in general, too... in a strange way
Eliza Madrigal: takes an edge off of fear...
Zen Arado: the older I get the less I am afraid of revealing things about myself
Eliza Madrigal: donno.. thinking aloud and maybe getting too chatty :)
Liza Deischer: :-)
Liza Deischer: but meditation can do that
Wol Euler: what does "too" mean in that sentence?
Liza Deischer: it builds up this inner strength
Zen Arado: you realize we are so similar not so unique as we thought
Eliza Madrigal: well, our talking and sharing here is generally mindful sharing...
Liza Deischer: dealing with unwanted emotions
Lawrence Vyceratops: What about unnecessary emotions?
Liza Deischer: makes you stronger
Eliza Madrigal: safe exposures almost, on occasion... and in meditation we face things like that too
Liza Deischer: hmmmm, stronger is not the right word
Zen Arado: I just notice the feeling
Eliza Madrigal: like contained explosions..heheh
Zen Arado: or try to.....
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: and finding this place in yourself
Liza Deischer: on a mental level
Zen Arado: separate the feeling from the thughts
Liza Deischer: deeper then the psychological level
Eliza Madrigal: nods
Lawrence Vyceratops: How do you separate feeling from thought?
Liza Deischer: starting to know and understand that
Liza Deischer: gives you another perspective on life
Liza Deischer: and on yourself
Zen Arado: if someone hurts you go to where the hurt feeling is
Liza Deischer: i don't lawrence
Liza Deischer: to me it is the same thing
Liza Deischer: we all think differently
Lawrence Vyceratops: To me also.
Eliza Madrigal: i can look at feelings objectively I think...
Liza Deischer: yes Zen and explore the feeling
Liza Deischer: making space
Eliza Madrigal: which seems the same
Zen Arado: yes exactly
Eliza Madrigal: yes, space
Zen Arado: make a space around the feeling
Liza Deischer: I dare to challenge that eliza :-)
Eliza Madrigal: or see that it is already there
Lawrence Vyceratops: Are we speaking metaphorically here?
Eliza Madrigal: sure
Zen Arado: no- it is a real feeling
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Liza... sure too!
Liza Deischer: because there is no such thing as objectivity
Zen Arado: I get a feeling in my stomach
Lawrence Vyceratops: What does it mean to make a space around the feeling.
Lawrence Vyceratops: ?
Zen Arado: ah that bit is metaphorical
Liza Deischer: good question lawrence but hard to answer
Zen Arado: you visualize it
Liza Deischer: get fimiliar with it
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, we use a feeling to look at a feeling?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, well that is what I could call taking a more expansive view Liza, that sees the feelings as just component of what seems to be going on
Liza Deischer: make it your friend as it were
Liza Deischer: yes
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Liza Deischer: not quite lawrence
Zen Arado: be the feeling they say
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, that's what I'm saying.
Liza Deischer: but not getting attached to it
Liza Deischer: that is the hard part
Liza Deischer: and that is space
Eliza Madrigal: not following the road?
Liza Deischer: to me getting befriended with it is the closest thing
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, when we make space around a feeling, what we mean is that we use thoughts to examine thoughts?
Eliza Madrigal: or at least leaving it open ended I guess... hehe.. so many pictures and metaphors
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: i mean to explain what happens
Liza Deischer: in a way but they have different meaning
Liza Deischer: in the and it is a feeling examening a feeling, examening a feeling, examening a feeling
Liza Deischer: but then you get to the philosophical part of meditation
Lawrence Vyceratops: Which is? :)
Zen Arado: the mind wants to analyse and understand but sometimes you have to just do it
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes. What are we doing?
Liza Deischer: make your own conclusions when you examine a feeling that goes on forever
Liza Deischer: :-)
Zen Arado: noticing a feeling
Zen Arado: very simple
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah. What was the point of this... sorry, I lost track.... :(
Fael Illyar: thoughts to examine thoughts... that only brings more chaos :) ... well, depends on what you mean with a thought.
Liza Deischer: i mean the noticing (better word), goes on forever
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, that can be a source of confusion... what is meant by thought.
Liza Deischer: I guess it stoppes somewhere :-)
Zen Arado: awareness is better
Liza Deischer: enlightenment?
Liza Deischer: yes Zen, you're right
Liza Deischer: and it doesn't stop either
Liza Deischer: i think I stop here :-)
Zen Arado: you disengage the thoughts and concentrate on the feeling
Lawrence Vyceratops: Wait... I'm lost on what we are discussing...
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Liza Deischer: right lawrence, that is exactly what happens
Liza Deischer: that is space
Zen Arado: emotions
Eliza Madrigal: compassion for our confusion
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Lawrence Vyceratops: Right, but why are we talking about this space?
Liza Deischer: you were
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: I was? haha
Zen Arado: if someone hurts you you look for where the hurt pain is in your body
Lawrence Vyceratops: I asked about the space. I was seeing a metaphor in the discussion and requested clarification...
Zen Arado: does that make sense?
Liza Deischer: yes Zen, it does
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, but, what are we talking about...
Eliza Madrigal is all talked about and just sharing space now...
Wol Euler: life.
Eliza Madrigal: out=about
Eliza Madrigal: maybe its a bit like that :)
Liza Deischer: right eliza ;-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha... I'm asking if this imagining of the space, in which there is feeling, is leading to some point.
Liza Deischer: you opened sort of a new discussion Lawrence, so you tell me :-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, I thought I dropped into the middle of a discussion :)
Liza Deischer: eh....the point is there is non
Wol Euler: you did, lawrence, but you changed its direction
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah... haha
Eliza Madrigal: it happens :)
Liza Deischer: not on a philosophical level
Lawrence Vyceratops: In these discussions, there is commonly confusion on definitions of concepts... I was only seeking clarification. sorry... :)
Liza Deischer: thats okay
Eliza Madrigal: someone just imed me that I've been online a lot today... they are Right! I'd better get going :) I appreciate you all, and the letting our hair down today :)
Zen Arado: we were really talking about Vipassana meditation in a way
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
Zen Arado: sure Bye Eliza
Wol Euler: thank you for the discussion
Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Eliza :)
Fael Illyar: have fun Eliza :)
Liza Deischer: our hair down ?
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Wol :)
Liza Deischer: bye eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone, Bye for now :))))
Eliza Madrigal: Hugs
Liza Deischer: and thanks for 'be'ing here
Lawrence Vyceratops: I am not familiar wit Vipassana meditation.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Zen Arado: nite Eliza
Liza Deischer: yes Zen, that is my meditation practice I'm afraid
Zen Arado: well - it is a type of meditation where you notice what is going on in your body - examine all the sensations
Zen Arado: is that right Liza?
Liza Deischer: eh... it is an approach, much used
Liza Deischer: because it is 'close to home'
Lawrence Vyceratops: Is that called meditation? ;)
Liza Deischer: but it actually is a meditation based on concentration
Zen Arado: it is one type
Liza Deischer: and above that getting insight
Zen Arado: yes the shamatha is the concentration part
Zen Arado: vipassana is the insight?
Liza Deischer: concentration, awareness !?
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, this is something that everyone does naturally...
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: in a way, but shamatha vipashana is actually the same thing
Zen Arado: you have to work at it Lawrence
Liza Deischer: but different qualities, so to speak
Zen Arado: ok liza
Liza Deischer: in the same meditation
Lawrence Vyceratops: No, I'm saying that everyday people do this naturally... every day.
Liza Deischer: meditation is not that
Lawrence Vyceratops: Unless I am missing some important aspect...
Liza Deischer: i understand what you mean
Liza Deischer: but meditation is an activity
Zen Arado: you can try to be present all fay
Zen Arado: day
Lawrence Vyceratops: Present?
Liza Deischer: it is a way to set the mind
Liza Deischer: on purpose
Liza Deischer: not just letting it happen naturally
Zen Arado: live in the present moment instead of going back and forth from the past to the future
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, you are talking about clinging to ideas.
Zen Arado: in a way
Lawrence Vyceratops: The past and the future are ideas.
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: but take place here and now
Lawrence Vyceratops: Right, that is what I meant by "clinging" to ideas, as in presently.
Zen Arado: sure
Lawrence Vyceratops: In the present, we hold onto ideas, which are based on the past and may be about the future.
Zen Arado: we let these ideas shut out the actual present
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes. That is apparent. :)
Zen Arado: which is all that really exists
Lawrence Vyceratops: Obviously.
Zen Arado: apparent but so many of us do it :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Of course. That is why we are all here.
Lawrence Vyceratops: To discuss this problem.
Zen Arado: yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: Isn't it?
Zen Arado: and others :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, why is this such a problem and why is no one concerned with the issue?
Zen Arado: though problems are illusions I think
Zen Arado: we love our problems
Zen Arado: they give us an identity
Zen Arado: we feel important
Lawrence Vyceratops: And we must enjoy that! haha
Zen Arado: and my problems are so much worse that yours :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Look how everyone seeks an identity...
Zen Arado: the world is insane
Zen Arado: except us of course :)
Wol Euler: on this happy note, I must leave you. My bed is calling, and behind it I hear the snuffling of the beast Work.
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha Of course! haha ;)
Wol Euler: thank you so much for the discussion this evening.
Zen Arado: yes I better go too
Lawrence Vyceratops: 'Night, Wol.
Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care
Liza Deischer: same here
Zen Arado: thanks for discussion everyone
Liza Deischer: thanks all
Zen Arado: bye
Lawrence Vyceratops: 'Night Zen and Liza :)
Fael Illyar: good night Wol :)
Fael Illyar: And everyone :)
Liza Deischer: nite everyone
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm leaving to go eat :) 'Night, Fael.