2012.07.02 19:00 - Happiness is a Powerful Force

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Pema Pera: hi O !
Pema Pera: slow connection?
Pema Pera: intermittent is more aggrevating than slow . .
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: how are things with you?
oO0Oo Resident: Couple of really inspiring sessions recently
Pema Pera: hi Steve and hi Alfred!
oO0Oo Resident: Fine thanks, hope you too !
Alfred Kelberry: mr pema :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema, Boxie, Sam
Pema Pera: I should say "ALFRED, SURPRISE, YOU'RE HERE!"
Pema Pera: :-)
Alfred Kelberry: welcome to san fransisco :)
oO0Oo Resident: Too predictable Pema
Pema Pera: thanks, yes, just arrived
stevenaia Michinaga: he's been staying up late recently :)
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Stev, Boxy
Pema Pera: a bit of a delay in my flight from NYC,
Alfred Kelberry: or up early
stevenaia Michinaga: awww, summer in Japan?
Pema Pera: so I'm now trying to have dinner, drink an IPA on tap AND be in SL all at the same time :)
Pema Pera: shows I'm not a zen type, I guess
Alfred Kelberry: pema, first class with champagne on board? :)
oO0Oo Resident notes Alfred's firearm
Pema Pera: nono, economy, and you have to pay for crackers even . .. .
Alfred Kelberry: eh, those lousy low costs :)
Pema Pera: but I'm in Berkeley now, in a nice bar, so I'm happy :)
Alfred Kelberry: very good, pema :)
Pema Pera: pasta with smoked Gouda cheese, feel very much at home
Pema Pera: (with the Dutch cheese I mean)
stevenaia Michinaga: I read last week in a loval paper about the B612 project, can you fill us in on anything about that? Strange what you find in a small town paper
stevenaia Michinaga: *local
Pema Pera: oh yes, it's a great adventure!
Pema Pera: We're going to be the first non-government organization traveling well away from the Earth
Pema Pera: to spot asteroids, and later hopefully visit them
oO0Oo Resident smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: suprising results in such a short time( less than a lifetime)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: I remember Sputnik . . . .
Pema Pera: just barely
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pema Pera: I was five.
Alfred Kelberry: PemaX? :)
Pema Pera: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Eliza
Alfred Kelberry: ah, that soviet nemesis beeping above your head? :)
Alfred Kelberry: ms eliza :)
Pema Pera: the key for B612 is that in Silicon Valley there are many people who are: 1) rich; 2) feel they have to give away some fraction of their money; 3) love Science Fiction
Pema Pera: so those three together guarantees funding for us :)
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Pema Pera: hi ELiza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi all :)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, great juncture
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Eliza
stevenaia Michinaga: the perfect convergence of people and toys and imagination
Pema Pera nods
oO0Oo Resident: Here we are
Pema Pera: O, you said there were some fun sessions lately?
Alfred Kelberry: pema, how much money have you scraped from them?
oO0Oo Resident: Inspiring.. yes
oO0Oo Resident: Aph's and Eliza's
Pema Pera: almost enough, Boxy
Pema Pera: can you summarize?
Alfred Kelberry: oh! very cool
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Storm
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :)
Pema Pera: I mean, on the trajectory to almost enough -- these things go in stages
Pema Pera: hi Storm!
Storm Nordwind: Greetings fellow playbeings :)
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Mr. Happy ;)
Storm Nordwind laughs
Alfred Kelberry: pema, but do you think a threat of an asteroid is that real?
Alfred Kelberry: mr storm
--BELL--
oO0Oo Resident listens to Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: surprising to see you
Pema Pera: I'm looking forward to watching Mr. Happy but most of my waking time I'm in an environment where I can't play videos with sound, not having earphones at hand -- but I'm looking forward to watching it.
Pema Pera: and sure, Boxy, ask any dinosaur!
Pema Pera: Dinosaurs regretted not having a space program . . . .
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind: But not for very long
Pema Pera: if they had, we would have scales
Eliza Madrigal hides scales
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: some people make it through anything!
Storm Nordwind: Instead we have balances
Eliza Madrigal smiles
oO0Oo Resident thinks of Stim
Alfred Kelberry: pema, by the time the next naughty asteroid decides to visit us we may not exist on this planet :)
Pema Pera: well, we don't know
Pema Pera: it's all statistical
Alfred Kelberry: yes, like halftime
Pema Pera: a dinosaur (or mammel) killer comes around every hundred million years
Pema Pera: but a city killer, potentially, every few centuries at least
Pema Pera: think Tunguska, a hundred years ago
Alfred Kelberry: yea, that was grand
stevenaia Michinaga: was that confirmed to ba an asueroid, not a black hole or something else?
Pema Pera: and unlike Earthquakes and vulcanos, we *can* predict and protect
Pema Pera: so why not do it?
Pema Pera: an asteroid, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pema Pera: the black hole was red (as in herring)
Alfred Kelberry: are you supported by the same nasa program as spacex?
Pema Pera: no support from NASA
Pema Pera: that's the point
Pema Pera: apart from indirect help with some aspects
oO0Oo Resident: Interesting segueway into Boxy's theme? Predict and protect?
Pema Pera: like using their interplanetary communications
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: Play as Nasa
Pema Pera: (next best thing to Being in the US)
Alfred Kelberry: pema, pretty significant help if you ask me. you'll be using their deep space network.
Pema Pera: oh yes, for sure
Alfred Kelberry: without it - no program
Pema Pera: but the main thing, build and launch (and pay) will be private
stevenaia Michinaga: where does the data go?
Pema Pera: not sure about that, boxy, but it would add costs
Alfred Kelberry: who will be launching it?
Pema Pera: a Falcon
Pema Pera: private space craft
Alfred Kelberry: cool
Pema Pera: much cheaper
stevenaia Michinaga: open source asteroid database?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, i'm very excited for spacex
Pema Pera: they just delivered a payload to the Space Station
Pema Pera: well, yes, Steve, wanna invest in asteroid mining?
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, looks at protfolio
Alfred Kelberry: ha! another financial bubble :)
stevenaia Michinaga: *portfolio
stevenaia Michinaga: is that part of the goal, to find somethng local for mining to?
Eliza Madrigal: brb
stevenaia Michinaga: I read about that recentl too
Pema Pera: it's part of the whole infrastructure
stevenaia Michinaga: someone seems to thing there are goodies up there for the taking
Pema Pera: the bigger the commercial activities, the cheaper each mission
Pema Pera: so if and when there is a blossoming mining culture, then when the next asteroid thread appears, you just call the Ace Asteroid Mining Company Inc.
Pema Pera: you don't need NASA then
stevenaia Michinaga: planetary ecotourism just around the corner to stand in your way :)
Pema Pera: sure!
Pema Pera: we become cave men (in asteroids)
Pema Pera: caves protect from cosmic rays
Pema Pera: very useful
Alfred Kelberry: pema, is asteroid mining economically viable?
Storm Nordwind: Why not mine at L4 and L5? That seems to be a quick(ish) win
Pema Pera: hard to get an asteroid to sit there
Pema Pera: they pass through at high speed
oO0Oo Resident wonders about scaling some of our short sighted tendencies on Earth into further reaches. In terms of effects we have had.. and might have.. not really knowing.
Storm Nordwind: I thought things were stable there?
Pema Pera: yes, but very costly to change the orbit of a mountain :)
Eliza Madrigal: (here)
Pema Pera: once they're there they are stable, but almost impossible to get them there
Pema Pera: yes, Sam, I think it helps psychologically too that we can take a long view and really offer protection
Pema Pera: for things the dinos wish they had had (not really kidding here)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: you see, there is an upper limit to the destruction caused by a single earthquake, or a single vulcano: rocks are only so strong and can build up only so much pressure -- but there is no limit to the amount of destruction that an asteroid can cause on Earth -- so it SHOULD be priority number one to worry about -- in the long run that is.
stevenaia Michinaga: Here is as close as hollywood gets...w/ Sean Connery http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082869/
stevenaia Michinaga: (one for Boxy to watch)
Alfred Kelberry: i think humanity possesses well enough ability to destroy itself before any asteroid
Pema Pera: by the way, on a different topic, I was very fortunate to attend a retreat by Namkhai Norbu, this last weekend in New York City -- unbeknownst to me, he appeared just during the three days I was planning already to be there.
oO0Oo Resident: Love the idea of marrying wisdom with a long term benevolent view. ::: thinks of Mr. Happy :::
Alfred Kelberry: stev, thank you :)
stevenaia Michinaga: the race is off!
Eliza Madrigal: different sort of 'long view'.. appreciate the point about the psychological effect of this scope
oO0Oo Resident listens for news of retreat
Alfred Kelberry: there's a theory actually that states that any sufficiently advanced civilization reaches a point of self destruction. this is why no one has ever visited us yet here on earth :)
Pema Pera: yes, there are many possible reasons
Pema Pera: but you would think a few would somehow muddle through . . .
Pema Pera: but perhaps only the shy ones?
Pema Pera: Who wait and don't speak up first?
Alfred Kelberry: apparently :)
Pema Pera: O, it was a great retreat, as always very very simple but very very direct
stevenaia Michinaga: sounds refreshing
oO0Oo Resident smiles
Eliza Madrigal: often it seems the most simple impartations that unpack in many ways and things over time
Alfred Kelberry: we often think of ourselves as almost omnipotent beings here on earth, but our infrastructure is very fragile. take electricity away and we're fucked.
Pema Pera: by some measure at least he may be the most impressive human being I've ever met
Pema Pera: or take the internet away, that will do it
oO0Oo Resident: predict and protect.. the shy ones.. hmm Boxy, fragile indeed.
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Paradise
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise :)
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Para :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Pema Pera: hi Paradise!

Alfred Kelberry: pema, re: Namkhai Norbu - this is interesting. can you disclose your measurement of awesomeness? :)
Alfred Kelberry: para girl :)
Pema Pera: I'd love to, Boxy
Eliza Madrigal: that is the question I wanted to ask too :)
Pema Pera: but it's not so easy
oO0Oo Resident: He seems to all the time (pema)
Paradise Tennant: hiya everyone :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hands pema another ale and listens
Alfred Kelberry: pema, or simply say why you like him :)
Pema Pera is thinking about a Pinot Noir
Pema Pera: (they have three brands here, by the glass!)
Alfred Kelberry: take the cheapest one
Pema Pera: the simplest way to say it is that Namkhai Norbu talks about the nature of reality the way we normally talk about pots and pans and chairs
Pema Pera: and although I can't judge the details of what he says, everything he says and is certainly matches what I've learned so far
Alfred Kelberry: can you give an example?
Pema Pera: let me start with a metaphor
Pema Pera: if I have visited a certain city, say Tokyo, quite a few times
Pema Pera: and then I meet somebody who claims to have lived there most of his life
Pema Pera: it's pretty straightforward to check whether he makes sense
Pema Pera: and when he does, I can learn a lot from him about the city
Pema Pera: beyond what I had already learned myself
Pema Pera: so that's the metaphor
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: confirmed
Pema Pera: I'm not sure what to say about the more concrete aspects
Eliza Madrigal: very nice... huge difference for a local to show one around
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: pema, what do you draw from this metaphor?
Pema Pera: in trying to be more concrete: the first time I met him changed my life: my own exploration of the nature of reality became much more focused, intense, and precise -- that's pretty concrete, for me at least :-) Like struggling with math in high school and suddenly getting a much better teacher
oO0Oo Resident: takes one to know one they say
Pema Pera: u c, we have been talking a lot about "no hope no fear" and "starting at the end" and "going beyond time" but actually meeting somebody who does that and shows it, as a matter of fact, the way others may role a cigaret, is something else
Alfred Kelberry: this is what we need :)
oO0Oo Resident: how can we value and protect what we do not see?
Pema Pera: :-)
Alfred Kelberry: we can talk, but no one can show :)
Pema Pera: by learning to see it, perhaps?
oO0Oo Resident: me nods
Pema Pera: One person cannot unilaterally show -- it has to be a collaboration
Alfred Kelberry: since pema is not here, we're left poking in the dark :)
Pema Pera: One person can share, if the other is sufficiently open
Alfred Kelberry: pema, but he did show to you, no?
Pema Pera: interestingly, Namkhai Norbu teaches on the internet now
oO0Oo Resident: Time to step up Alfred
Eliza Madrigal: was noticing that Pema
Pema Pera: oh, he shows to everybody, Alfred
Pema Pera: but the more preparation, the more you have struggled with these topics, the easier it is to recognize what he is showing
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps there is a potential capacity to develop greater night vision... then see Pema is still here :)
Pema Pera: if somebody talks about life in Timbuktu, I can only vaguely imagine
Pema Pera: but when somebody talks about Tokyo I have a pretty good idea :)
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, as a rare guest :)
Pema Pera smiles at Eliza
Pema Pera picture a puppy eating carrots
Paradise Tennant: know that one well :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: Boxy, let me ask a simple question
Alfred Kelberry: you say that practice aids understanding, which is true
Pema Pera: what is your guess
Pema Pera: about future progress of science?
Pema Pera: do you think we've seen it all, or most of it, the surprises
Pema Pera: like quantum mechanics, a bolt out of the blue, and relativity
Pema Pera: and also natural evolution and before that the Copernican revolutioin
Pema Pera: do you think those are it?
Alfred Kelberry: why would it be it?
Pema Pera: Or do you think there may be another half dozen or more to come?
Alfred Kelberry: all those changes are progress of science
Pema Pera: so you would be comfortable with a lot more of those?
Alfred Kelberry: this is why people keep doing research
Pema Pera: well, *if* other discoveries are made, on the level of surprise of quantum mechanics, *then* it is quite possible that, in retrospect, a deepened understanding of the nature of space and time and matter would finally show a way to scientifically understand what somebody like Namkhai Norbu is talking about experientially
Pema Pera: wouldn't you agree?
Alfred Kelberry: no
Paradise Tennant: how does he get there first :)
Pema Pera: why not?
Alfred Kelberry: there's no scientific point of reference in spiritual teaching
Pema Pera: look at my field, astronomy. The Babylonians gathered all the facts, over a couple thousand years, and THEN the Greeks and later Newton ultimately, came up with a theory that is universal and simple
Pema Pera: but without the observations there would have been no hook for a theory
Pema Pera: Namkhai Norbu is a Babylonian
Alfred Kelberry: in your eyes :)
Pema Pera: doing pretty damn good observations, as far as I can see
Pema Pera: but to make contact with modern culture, society, including science, we need to find ways to translate
Alfred Kelberry: like the one with tokyo?
Pema Pera: but unless we understand the observations, we are left with an empty plate
Pema Pera: yes, Tokyo as a metaphor
Alfred Kelberry: how would you translate it into the language of science?
Pema Pera: I'm not saying that I'm buying into his cultural metaphors -- but I do sense that there is a core of empirical facts there that has not yet been discussed by science
Eliza Madrigal: people do measurements of change with meditation effects now and find 'results' but glad people didn't wait for that validation to experiment on their own
Pema Pera: that's the challenge, Boxy
--BELL--
Pema Pera: After the Babylonians, it take quite a while to get to Hipparchos and Galileo and Newton . . . . so from Namkhai Norbu to a scientific description may easily take a few hundred years; partly because that is not what science is focused on now, so progress is likely to be quite slow for a while at least
Alfred Kelberry: newton and einstein had a unified language for their observation - math and physics. and their work is built on previous research. where does namkhai stand here?
Pema Pera: Newton did not follow Babylonians
Pema Pera: there were *many* steps in between
Pema Pera: if NN is a Babylonian, perhaps I can be an "early Greek"
Alfred Kelberry: perhaps :)
Eliza Madrigal: zorba...
oO0Oo Resident: each link with it's blissful drops
Pema Pera: hahaha, yes
Pema Pera: dancing with it
Pema Pera: and yes, in research everything is "perhaps"
Pema Pera: I can be wrong, like everybody
Alfred Kelberry: or you also could be that guy who is preaching about the end of the world :)
Pema Pera: but it's exciting to explore
Pema Pera: an asteroid will hit, the sky will fall !!
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Pema Pera: give me your money!
Eliza Madrigal: blue pancake
Storm Nordwind: Until someone actually engages epoche and makes the effort - even to get a few yards - no one is going anywhere.
Alfred Kelberry: pema, giving the occam's razor who that might be? :)
Pema Pera: yes, was thinking about blue pancakes
Pema Pera: anyone who seriously tries
Pema Pera: I've tried since I was 17
oO0Oo Resident: Motivations?
Pema Pera: and have found a few fun things here and there
Pema Pera: some of which I'm now trying to pass on to the next generations
oO0Oo Resident: me smiles
Pema Pera: motivation is exploration for me
Eliza Madrigal wishes Pema long life
Pema Pera: doing good is too dangerous for me :)
oO0Oo Resident: me lifts glass
Pema Pera: feeling good is good enough for me
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: happiness is a powerful force
Pema Pera: Boxy, if you would try some form of exploration of, say, dzogchen, and would want to compare notes, I'd be happy to do so
Pema Pera: it's not that hard, if you're serious
Pema Pera: but unless you start, there is very little I can convey
Eliza Madrigal: really like the phrase "actually engages epoche", Storm... would like to pick that up some time
Alfred Kelberry: pema, what is the goal of your research?
Storm Nordwind smiles
oO0Oo Resident: What a nice offer Pema
Pema Pera: understanding reality better
Storm Nordwind: Can we all try? :)
Pema Pera: since I belief that seeing clearly is better than trying to be nice -- too many examples of do-gooders who created havoc
Pema Pera: sure, Storm! :-)
Alfred Kelberry: do-gooders? who are they?
Pema Pera: btw, my computer is running out of battery power :(
oO0Oo Resident laughs.. Alfred.. your destiny awaits you :)))
Alfred Kelberry: pema, for the record, i believe the same thing :)
Pema Pera: oh, many people with a fixed belief in a framwork, Boxy
Pema Pera: whether spiritual, scientific, communist, capitalist
Pema Pera: they all try to do good
Alfred Kelberry: pema, which includes both you and me :)
Pema Pera: yes, I sense that you are driven by a similar curiosity as I am
Pema Pera: which makes it so much fun to talk with you
Pema Pera: I, too, am skeptical
Pema Pera: and I, too, don't want to take anything on face value or as fashion
Alfred Kelberry: my problem with your approach is that, as you stated, there is no shared language to describe observations, so no current scientific methods can be applied to your research
oO0Oo Resident: Maybe things need not be so adversarial.. but could be more collegial.. in having Alred Pema talks.
Alfred Kelberry: which puts this undertaking in the realm of spiritual cult
Pema Pera: we can try an exercise, in another week, and start from scratch
Eliza Madrigal: but if one continually just balks against something it takes time from trying it ....finding out
Pema Pera: no need for traditions
Pema Pera: for example, we can spend a week, you and I and anyone who wants
Pema Pera: to try to live as if there were no tomorrow
Pema Pera: and no yesterday
Pema Pera: everything contained in the moment
Pema Pera: what would that *really* be like
Pema Pera: in dirty detail?
Pema Pera: we could compare notes
Pema Pera: nothing "spiritual" about it
Pema Pera: no spirits, hey?
Pema Pera: :-)
Storm Nordwind: delicious :)
Pema Pera: wanna do that, Boxy?
Pema Pera: a form of phenomenology if you like
Pema Pera: but a pretty advanced one :)
Alfred Kelberry: what this experiment would test or what question answer?
Pema Pera: hm my computer tells me it's going to sleep in two minutes
Pema Pera: it would explore the nature of time, Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Pema Pera: pretty fundamental
Eliza Madrigal: :)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: next best thing to Being
Pema Pera: (excuse me & my batteries -- bfn)
Storm Nordwind: Bye Pema!
Eliza Madrigal: bye Pema :)
oO0Oo Resident waves
Paradise Tennant: thank you pema :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: in the moment :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: this would not be an experiment, but a presentation of pemayana
Paradise Tennant: getting late here .. my main processor is shutting down too I am afraid .. thank you friends lots to ponder as I stroll with the dog :))
Eliza Madrigal: sense of 'immediacy' with Pema... somehow want to write NN a thank you letter :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night Paradise, so lovely to see you... rare treat
Paradise Tennant: or take little steps to hear his talks :))
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night Para, time for me to sleep too
Eliza Madrigal: I watched My Reincarnation today
Paradise Tennant: namaste :)
Eliza Madrigal: it is available online until September I think... about Namkhai Norbu and his son...
Storm Nordwind waves
Alfred Kelberry: besides, how can you test anything that has no way of being described and then later relayed to in a shared framework
Storm Nordwind: URL Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: sure, moment...
Eliza Madrigal: http://www.pbs.org/pov/myreincarnation/?ref=povhptopr
Storm Nordwind: Thank you! :)
Eliza Madrigal: recurring themes lately... really enjoyed this
Eliza Madrigal: maybe reading some thoughts expressed already in sessions this week... there are some angles you might appreciate boxy
Alfred Kelberry: i hope the same for my typing, eliza :)
Alfred Kelberry: i rarely read meeting logs though
Eliza Madrigal: interesting to see the community response to questions you are asking... layers of communicativeness...
Eliza Madrigal: one who doesn't at least peek/skim will/may miss quite a lot
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: can't have everything :)
Eliza Madrigal: for me the logs are a key component of what makes a lab here... but there is being in the moment I guess, each session new :)
Eliza Madrigal: anyway, be well and happy friends
Storm Nordwind: You too :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) ty ::receives that appreciatively:::
Alfred Kelberry: lab... heh :)
Alfred Kelberry: you're truly a soul of this group, eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) thank you boxy ... I love it here because we are, so many of us, so curious... so willing to explore
Eliza Madrigal: Carl Sagan said something like, scientists are the true worshipers...
Alfred Kelberry: i like being here because of people i've met, no the "explorations"
Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure of his breed, but boxy may be able to tell us a lot about "life as a lab" :)
Eliza Madrigal: daring to stare reality in the face and listen
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Alfred Kelberry: i love labs. cutest creature :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) nite
Storm Nordwind waves
Alfred Kelberry: "daring to stare reality in the face" - what does it even mean?