The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray.

Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Kori.
Korel Laloix: I think you are the only guy AV I have met that wears shorts on a regular basis.
Korel Laloix: Congratulations.
stevenaia Michinaga: hi bruce, Korel
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, steve!
Bruce Mowbray: SO SORRY that I completely forgot about the WG mtg this week.
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, my typist also wears shorts on a regular basis in RL.
Korel Laloix: Only when I run.
Korel Laloix: I try not to inflict my legs on anyone else's eyes.
stevenaia Michinaga: no problem, I think we got done what needed to get done
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Tiger-man Eos!
Korel Laloix: Heya
Eos Amaterasu: HI Bruce, Korel, Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: I'll be working on the summary unless you free the urge :)
Bruce Mowbray: No, please go ahead, steve.
Bruce Mowbray: I have too many forks in the air right now.
Korel Laloix: Forks in the air?
Korel Laloix: You will have to tell me where that idiom came from, please.
Bruce Mowbray: If you need my help, though -- posting or whatever -- please call out, OK?
Bruce Mowbray: I idiomized whatever noun popped into my mind at the moment.
Bruce Mowbray: It could have been "too many shorts in the air...."
Bruce Mowbray: as per our earlier discussion of shorts and running.
stevenaia Michinaga: possibly irons in the fire?
Bruce Mowbray: Or spoons in the soup....?
Korel Laloix: OH OK... smiles
Korel Laloix: I just have to ask about these things... sorry.
stevenaia Michinaga: How are you, Eos
Bruce Mowbray is an iconoclast when it comes to breaking up tired old idioms.
Eos Amaterasu: just here briefly, stevenaia
Korel Laloix: iconoclast is a lovely word.
Eos Amaterasu: (referring to session, not lifetime - but actually, both)
Korel Laloix: I keep trying to use it, but fail.
Bruce Mowbray: any outworn idiomatic expressions you'd like to refresh for us, Eos?
stevenaia Michinaga: brb, kitchen duty calls
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Eos Amaterasu: define 'iconoclast'
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, steve.
Bruce Mowbray: "Iconoclast" -- (freelance definition) : One who breaks up icons.
Eos Amaterasu: is it possible to be without images?
Korel Laloix: I have been called that a couple of times... but never managed to use it.
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Boxy!
Eos Amaterasu is an iconoiconoclast
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Iconoclast par excellence!
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh!
Bruce Mowbray loves "iconoiconoclast"
Alfred Kelberry: hi
Bruce Mowbray: I don't really break them, of course. I just tilt them a bit.
Korel Laloix: Icons of icons?

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: Hi xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone:)
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, good Xirana . . . and artist exceptionale -- and perhaps also an iconoclast, as many artists are.
Eos Amaterasu: hi mp
Xirana Oximoxi: well...some are...but I think I am not:)
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Xirana Oximoxi: ty Eos:)
Bruce Mowbray: Thou hast not the Shiva-zest in ye?
Alfred Kelberry: what?
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eos Amaterasu: ¿
Bruce Mowbray: Isn't Shiva the Hindu god of destruction?
Xirana Oximoxi: visual artists usually 'create' images'... even if these images are not a reproduction of 'what we see'...
Bruce Mowbray: Brahma - creation. Vishnu-sustaining. Shiva-destruction.
Bruce Mowbray looks around for the god of correct spelling.
Eos Amaterasu: spring summer fall
Alfred Kelberry: xiri, is the fall already noticeable in your area?
Bruce Mowbray: beautiful analogy, Eos.
Xirana Oximoxi: but I don't believe these images have to become a symbol for others
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Xirana Oximoxi: what 'fall' boxy?
Bruce Mowbray: Autumn.
Alfred Kelberry: autumn :)
Alfred Kelberry: sorry
Bruce Mowbray notes: Noticeable here last night - when the temps dropped into the lower 40's (F).
Xirana Oximoxi: ahhh yes... sorry:)) here the fall is not nice this years...more than 2 months without rain has made the trees and leaves too dry and they have fallen before time
Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, wow - that's cold
Bruce Mowbray wonders how a phrase becomes a cliché --  becomes an idiom -- and how an image becomes an icon.
Korel Laloix: Sooooo not looking forward to winter.... grrr
Eos Amaterasu: that's 4.4444 celsius
Alfred Kelberry: kori, you don't ski?
Korel Laloix: Heck no.
Alfred Kelberry: why not? almost like running :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Xir -- we also have that drought thing with the trees and the bushes.... not really like a "real" autumn, is it?
Korel Laloix: Snow is tangle proof of Satan... I stay away at all costs.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: ah, ok :)
Xirana Oximoxi: I suppose an image becomes an 'icon' when someone starts giving it some special meaning and a lot of people believe it
Bruce Mowbray: Snow purifies, Kori.
Alfred Kelberry: i kind of miss snow
Korel Laloix: By killing of people?
Xirana Oximoxi: 'icon'
Xirana Oximoxi: yes Eos:) like here:)
Bruce Mowbray: So, if we could hire enough folks to bow down to some image, we could create an icon out of almost anything.....(?)
Eos Amaterasu: seems to be what happens
Korel Laloix: Snow makes for a very unhappy chat... I like Xirana's idea better.
Xirana Oximoxi: well...it takes a lot of time...and generations maybe:)
Eos Amaterasu: places and icons get special through use
Bruce Mowbray shuffles around -  not remembering Xir's idea....
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
stevenaia Michinaga: back
Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, brand consultants are trying hard to make it happen :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi steve:)
Korel Laloix: You can say that Michael Jordan is a basketball icon.
stevenaia Michinaga: waves to everyone who arrived
Alfred Kelberry: morning, stev :)
Bruce Mowbray: Many things around my household also get special through use of them.... and as I grow older, I revere their being here... in a way, they become a sort of comfort.
stevenaia Michinaga: (afternoon)
Korel Laloix: So I am not sure about the bow-down thing.
Korel Laloix: Example, Bruce, please.
Eos Amaterasu: I have a pine cone under my monitor
Bruce Mowbray: example of an icon?
Eos Amaterasu: less than an inch high
Eos Amaterasu: it's special, now
Korel Laloix: Please
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh -- a pine cone under the monitor! wonderful!
Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, what things do you revere in the house?
Korel Laloix: Is that an Icon?
Eos Amaterasu: I would say so
Eos Amaterasu: in my context
Bruce Mowbray: I revere my potbelly stove... 40 years old.
Bruce Mowbray: I revere gifts given to me by dear friends, now sadly departed.
Korel Laloix: Not really icons though?
Xirana Oximoxi: Bruce... ':)' ... this is an icon of a smile :)
Bruce Mowbray: I revere pictures that hung on my mother's walls (in Iowa and Orgeon) over 50 years ago.
Xirana Oximoxi: emot-icon
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: :)
Korel Laloix: lol
Xirana Oximoxi: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: well, I guess that's also a sort of icon.
Bruce Mowbray: hehe
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Korel Laloix: What is the difference between an Icon and an Avatar?
Bruce Mowbray was just thinking about this today, in fact.
Bruce Mowbray: looking at an Audubon print of cardinals that she had....
Bruce Mowbray: Good question, Kori.
Eos Amaterasu: avatar generally refers to an embodiment of a person
Eos Amaterasu: (not necessarily human)
Eos Amaterasu: Krishna is an avatar of Vishnu, I believe

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: yes, I think so, Eos.
Alfred Kelberry: icon - a person or thing regarded as a representative symbol of something
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i like dictionaries
Alfred Kelberry: kori, anything interesting on the lectures?
Bruce Mowbray: Some things and/or individuals are said to be "iconic."
Korel Laloix: I have an icon on the in/out board at work.
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...in religions usually it is full of images that are 'icons'.... the virgin Maria, and saints that protect different subjects...
Korel Laloix: It is a twig on a magnet... smiles
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Walter Cronkite is an icon of television journalism, for example.
Eos Amaterasu: the playgoda is iconic
Korel Laloix: Benford Newcomb law
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it is.
Eos Amaterasu: gotta boogie (speaking of idioms) - bye all!
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps all mandalas are also iconic, in a sense.
Korel Laloix: I know the name Walter C.. but no idea of who or what he is.. or was.
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Eos:)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Eos!
Alfred Kelberry: kori, good one
Bruce Mowbray: Wow.
Korel Laloix: wow what?
Xirana Oximoxi: mandalas also follow the idea of a 'center'....so yes, probably they are iconic too
Bruce Mowbray recalls Walter Cronkite announcing JFK's death -- at the student union at SMU in Dallas -- only a few minutes after Bruce's typist had welcomed JFK to the city -- Gate 24, Love Field.
Alfred Kelberry: kori, used in accounting fraud detection - neat :)
Bruce Mowbray: powerful icon.
Korel Laloix: That is what the block is on.. stats in criminal justice.
Bruce Mowbray: So, an icon is something that leaves a lasting impression, or is meant to do that?
Alfred Kelberry: kori, i will now cross-check each statistical data against benford's law on integrity :)
Korel Laloix: Just keep in mind, it is not a law really.. just a rule.. many many exceptions... the big one being normal distributions.
Xirana Oximoxi: yes... if it does not last...it is only a mode....
Korel Laloix: Icons can be good or bad though.
Xirana Oximoxi: or some tendency that lose meaning very quick
Alfred Kelberry: kori: yes, an observation with statistical significance
Korel Laloix: Like the Walter C comment... a fading Icon I guess.
Xirana Oximoxi: yes Kori:) both senses have icons
Korel Laloix: And sometimes you try to make yourself an Icon.
Korel Laloix: Of an ideal you have.
Bruce Mowbray wonders how the image of Cronkite announcing the death of JFK could fade.
Bruce Mowbray: [understands]
Korel Laloix: Well.. when I think about it... it is distant history to me.
Bruce Mowbray: "That's one step for a man - one giant leap for mankind." --- an icon? Also fading? Neil's memorial service was held this week at Washington's National Cathedral.
Xirana Oximoxi: it depends on the television. if they keep remembering it and reproducing the images again and again. it will not fade...
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, distant history.... but perhaps icons reach beyond history. . .
Korel Laloix: When you look at it, those where small events in human history... well, maybe not the mood landing thing.
Alfred Kelberry: kori: ok, here's one for you - betterige's law of headlines :)
Bruce Mowbray recalls the desert monks -- keeping alive icons that everyone else had forgotten.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray also ponders "the mood landing thing."
Korel Laloix: Interesting.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Bruce Mowbray: a new icon?
Korel Laloix: Or Godwins Law.
Xirana Oximoxi: Ame also ponders... :)
Alfred Kelberry: kori, ha - right :)
Xirana Oximoxi also ponders
Korel Laloix: Ignore my typing today please.
Bruce Mowbray willingly steps aside so that new icons may emerge.
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Korel Laloix: But I do like he term 'mood landing' ... smiles
Alfred Kelberry: kori, which i find often holds in heated debates
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray joins in group smile.
Korel Laloix: So are Icons good, bad, or just a tool?
Bruce Mowbray: Icons are points of touching.
Bruce Mowbray: Neither good nor bad.
Bruce Mowbray: Just a point of reference for what our souls feel is worthy.
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe we need them as another kind of 'language'
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, they are a sort of language -- as art is.
Korel Laloix: I think putting a soul-oriented connotation is a bit excessive.
Bruce Mowbray: really?
Korel Laloix: In my Faith.. they mean one thing.. but in general today, they are just something on the computer.
Bruce Mowbray ponders Kori's soul-involvement when she runs.
Korel Laloix: Well, that is my main prayer and mediation time.. but not iconic.
Xirana Oximoxi: when an artist creates an 'abstract'...can we see it as iconic to some kind of subjective reality?
Bruce Mowbray: OH!
Bruce Mowbray: Well, pardon my arrogance here, but I do feel that your running in soul, Kori, is highly iconic.
Bruce Mowbray: It inspires me, nonetheless.
Korel Laloix: OH OK.. smiles
Bruce Mowbray: a point of touching the real, for me.
stevenaia Michinaga: bye my friends Kitchen cleanup calls
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye steve:)
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, steve.\
Korel Laloix: For me abstract art is iconic of the artist's lack of talent.
Bruce Mowbray ponders "kitchen cleanup."
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Bruce Mowbray: Really???!!!
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my.
Xirana Oximoxi: ok Korel:) I can understand your point of view...but I don't see it like you:)
Bruce Mowbray: Some abstract art (so-called) brings me to tears, literally.
Bruce Mowbray: I make pilgrimages to it -- literally.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Korel Laloix: Agreed.. thinking of all the taxpayer money that could have been used to fight breast cancer that instead went to buying a paper bag with elephant dung in it...
Korel Laloix: Agreed.. to tears.
Bruce Mowbray ponders "lowest common denominators...."
Bruce Mowbray: Rothko.
Bruce Mowbray: Zen's abstracts.
Bruce Mowbray: many others.
Bruce Mowbray: They lift my spirit --
Bruce Mowbray: Xir's work, also.
Xirana Oximoxi: it's not possible to value the price of works of art comparing it to more elemental needs of people....but, the market of art, like for example sports. is a big business
Bruce Mowbray: wonderful.
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, big business does not equal "value"
Xirana Oximoxi: it will be always a 'pain' to think of the money that is paid to it at the place of giving care to them
Xirana Oximoxi: but...on the other hand..we need room for culture and other needs that are not so basic too..
Bruce Mowbray: Money can be quite a distraction from value, actually.
Korel Laloix: I like that statement Bruce..
Korel Laloix: I will have use for it.. thanks.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: ahhh! TY.
Bruce Mowbray: Time for moi to move on. Thank you all!
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Santoshima Resident: and me also
Santoshima Resident: bye!
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Bruce:)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi San :)
Xirana Oximoxi: I will also go... have a nice time Korel and mighty:)
Korel Laloix: Take care.
Xirana Oximoxi: you too:)