Page last modified 03:12, 18 Sep 2012 by eliza
2012.09.17 19:00 - So Many Angles to Ethics
Table of contents
No headersThe Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
Pila Mulligan: how are you?
Eliza Madrigal: quite alright tonight thank you, you?
Pila Mulligan: fine, thanks
Pila Mulligan: I was just looking back in recorded history to 2009
Pila Mulligan: seems like quite a while ago :)
Eliza Madrigal: seems far away :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Pila Mulligan: that was the year Stim did Ways of Knowing
Eliza Madrigal: yes, he began right around the time I came to SL/PaB/Kira
Pila Mulligan: then we started the I Ching Workshop in 2010
Pila Mulligan: meeting less often, many of the same people
Eliza Madrigal: goodness... 2 years?
Pila Mulligan: 3 :)
Pila Mulligan: counting 2012
Eliza Madrigal: nice... now that seems a blip!
Pila Mulligan: yep :)
Eliza Madrigal: you've done a marvelous job with that workshop Pila
Pila Mulligan: I've been reading some of the discussions about finding new directions for PAB meetings, schedules, etc
Pila Mulligan: thatk you, it was fun
Pila Mulligan: and I'm wondering about the next year
Pila Mulligan: I was thinkinig three years is plenty for a workshop
Eliza Madrigal: Hm... always difficult to say....
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ewan :)
Pila Mulligan: it is nice to be included in the list of affiliated activites with PAB when you guys dicsuss things
Pila Mulligan: hi Ewan
Eliza Madrigal: well it seems natural Pila
Pila Mulligan: :) yes, me too
Pila Mulligan: and now I have an idea, just in the past few minutes
Eliza Madrigal listens
Pila Mulligan: how are you Ewan?
Ewan Bonham: greetings folks..
Eliza Madrigal: greetings :)
Ewan Bonham: I am doing well.. and you folks?
Pila Mulligan: fine, thanks
Eliza Madrigal: yes fine too :)
Ewan Bonham: Have not seen especially you Pila in a long time...and good to see you again Eliza..
Pila Mulligan: same here Ewan
Pila Mulligan: we were talking about ideas for future activities
Eliza Madrigal: good to see you as well :)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pila Mulligan: the Sunday at 2 pm SLT meeting time has been working okay this year
Pila Mulligan: as a special schedule thing
Eliza Madrigal: well attended
Pila Mulligan: and Storm made a nice place
Pila Mulligan: helping make it 'mo bettah'
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Pila Mulligan: maybe that time and place could continue with a new theme, and new guidance
Pila Mulligan: but I'd like to recommend the theme :)
Pila Mulligan: Ethics
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhhh
Eliza Madrigal: why new guidance... seems right up your alley :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, but too much trouble trying to lead sessions, this years individual theme session were easier
Pila Mulligan: each month a new person or group
Eliza Madrigal: we 'touched on' ethics in WoK... deeply in points but always felt there was rich ground there
Pila Mulligan: doing a theme
Pila Mulligan: yes, it was Stim's big one too
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Pila Mulligan: so that would be my 2 cents for the new directions discussion
Ewan Bonham: Hmmm... there are so many angles to Ethics..
Eliza Madrigal: would it be 'angles of ethics' or something like that
Eliza Madrigal: snap :)
Pila Mulligan: angles, curves, levels, all of it
Ewan Bonham: Hmmm..
Pila Mulligan: an unlimited approach
Ewan Bonham: Would his relate to the concept of 'Right Living'?
Pila Mulligan: it could
Pila Mulligan: quite naturally
Eliza Madrigal: 'Buddhist ethics' is particular perhaps
Pila Mulligan: yes
Ewan Bonham: Yes
Pila Mulligan: how about '__________' [any religion] ethics, too
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce has mentioned emergent ethics a few times in recent weeks
Ewan Bonham: Emergent?
Eliza Madrigal: how SL has its own peculiar ethics that arises from the medium... something like that
Eliza Madrigal: have meant to ask him more about it
Ewan Bonham: I think I understand..
Eliza Madrigal: wb Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: clunk
Pila Mulligan: ty
Ewan Bonham: Like the ethics connected with 'tipping'..
Eliza Madrigal: say more?
Ewan Bonham: If a performer has given her talent to bring some pleasure to the audience, then the least I can do is tip her..
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ah, nods....
Eliza Madrigal: and usually those who have performed or waited tables, are decent tippers :)
Ewan Bonham: Nod
Pila Mulligan: I was typing another (non SL) example of a sub-theme when I crashed ...
Eliza Madrigal: however there is another level that would question whether a tipping economy discourages fair wages
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: true
Eliza Madrigal: but that's a larger case and shouldn't be taken out on performer :))
Ewan Bonham: Yes....but in the sl culture..there realy are no wages... cause there is no admission fee
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes indeed.. flew out of SL for a moment
Eliza Madrigal: Pila, another level?
Pila Mulligan: in law school ethics classes they usually bring in hypotehtical situations, as a case study, to discuss
Eliza Madrigal: ah, like Professor Singer [added: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer]
Pila Mulligan: tipping could be an example, but with a background story
Pila Mulligan: tipping could be an example, but with a background story
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: this is tying the chat to a pragmatic level, it may be helpful sometimes
Pila Mulligan: but then again, free thinking, concepts etc are also helpful
Eliza Madrigal: I wrote a whole paper in an ethics class, about returning grocery carts, haha
Pila Mulligan: cool
Ewan Bonham: Lol...but good example..
Ewan Bonham: Here another ethical issue may have to do with what language you use..
Eliza Madrigal: oh interesting
Pila Mulligan: one of the more in teresting episodes in Gandhi's writings, for me, is a true story about his ashram, and how they addressed a monkey problem
Ewan Bonham: And how well you want to respect a person's sense of space..
Pila Mulligan: a gang of monkies was destroying their crops and orchards
Pila Mulligan: they discussed for months what to do about it
Pila Mulligan: finally decided to use force, believe it or not
Eliza Madrigal: oh?
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: only instance I've ver heard of in Gandhi's life
Eliza Madrigal: what was the reasoning behind the force?
Eliza Madrigal: the larger good of the crops?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Eliza Madrigal: those are tough decisions... we were sort of talking about this just this morning here.. 'critter boundaries'
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: gets into territories of diet also :)
Eliza Madrigal: endless
Eliza Madrigal: Ewan would you say more about giving space and language re ethics?
Ewan Bonham: Well, I was thinking of griefers
Ewan Bonham: And how i is so clear that a particular group is meeting for a certain purpose.
Ewan Bonham: And so I believe it is ethical behavior to respect the space which has a purpose for that point in time..
Pila Mulligan: FYI -- http://www.mkgandhi.org/g_ganga/chap52.htm
Ewan Bonham: And many folks who have also attended to come together for that purpose..
Eliza Madrigal: ty Pila
Eliza Madrigal: yes Ewan me too
Ewan Bonham: It is unlike rl, in that there are not as many physical barriers in sl..
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: true
Eliza Madrigal: and few people who disrupt a typical discussion could be called "griefers" ... perhaps differences in senses of manners
Ewan Bonham: Yes, that is where ethics comes in...cause these are not laws..
Ewan Bonham: But they are behaviors based on cultural expectations..
Eliza Madrigal: so language then becomes skillful, by necessity?
Pila Mulligan: I've recently enocuntered aituations where disrupting RL public proceedings seems to ethically necessary
Eliza Madrigal: really! :::Listens:::
Pila Mulligan: we are dealing with some issues here, where people want to industrialize a quiet rural area
Pila Mulligan: there have been some government meetings on the subject
Pila Mulligan: they have set up the procedure to inhibit discussion, allowing mostly one way lectures from the governemnt
Pila Mulligan: so people have leanred to interpose themselves and turn it around, asking questions instead of listening
Pila Mulligan: contrary to the established procedure
Pila Mulligan: it works :)
Eliza Madrigal: that's great... so it is a new form that arises from the limitation in a way
Eliza Madrigal: does it seem to help?
Pila Mulligan: by breaking the direction out enought so public voices can be heard
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: some government people have started repeating the public views
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: wish you all well with that Pila
Pila Mulligan: it is like a 3rd world country here in many ways
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Pila Mulligan: plantation mentality
Ewan Bonham: Lol
Pila Mulligan: ethics is indeed the rules you make for yourself, as Ewan noted earlier
Pila Mulligan: where laws don't apply
Eliza Madrigal: Eos likes to quote Bob Dylan "To live above the law you must be honest"
Pila Mulligan: yep
Ewan Bonham: nod
Pila Mulligan: SL griefers may be like Gandhi's monkeys
Pila Mulligan: unaware and in need of restraint
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: boundaries are tricky....
Ewan Bonham: nods
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes it is indeed appropriate to derail a session for the sake of someone coming in 'off key'
Eliza Madrigal: and to find a new key
Pila Mulligan: :)
Ewan Bonham: I like the way that is put..
Eliza Madrigal: see it happen all the time... but then at other times one disrupts and sort of saps the group energy...
Eliza Madrigal: again, endlessly fascinating :)
Ewan Bonham: Yes, that may be another example of ethics..
Ewan Bonham: To be not only present but involved..
Pila Mulligan: and balanced
Eliza Madrigal: equanimity
Eliza Madrigal: So Pila I think it is a good idea
Eliza Madrigal: :D
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Pila Mulligan: the established time and place may help perpetuate a new theme and method
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: maybe there is a better approach that can be devised, or maybe the idea will fizzle, whatevers :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Can bring it to the table and see
Pila Mulligan: :)
Ewan Bonham: Well, I think it would be facinating to kinda gather some of the sl ethics that we come across.
Eliza Madrigal: it would be.... snapshots of ethics in action
Pila Mulligan: SL as ethics lab
Eliza Madrigal: :) love it
Pila Mulligan: with field trips :)
Eliza Madrigal: haha... well there are some corners of SL I've not ventured into yet
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Pila Mulligan: but follow the Prime Directive :)
Pila Mulligan: (Star Trek)
Eliza Madrigal: refresh my memory Pila?
Pila Mulligan: In the universe of Star Trek, the Prime Directive, Starfleet's General Order #1, is the most prominent guiding principle of the United Federation of Planets. The Prime Directive dictates that there can be no interference with the internal development of alien civilizations.
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: would occupants of dark corners of SL be alien
Pila Mulligan: ?
Ewan Bonham: Alien....to what...smile?
Eliza Madrigal: alien ethics... there's another angle :)
Pila Mulligan: yes
Eliza Madrigal: go lightly...
Eliza Madrigal tries to remember the line from Desiderata... has been years...
Eliza Madrigal: Go placidly amidst the noise and haste...
Pila Mulligan: yep
Ewan Bonham: wind at your back..?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.
Eliza Madrigal: forgot how lovely that is, thanks
Eliza Madrigal: and thanks for this session too, much appreciated
Eliza Madrigal: time for bed :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza, thnak you
Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams
Ewan Bonham: nite...Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Good Night and Pleasant sleep
Ewan Bonham: nite Pila..
Pila Mulligan: nite Ewan
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you
Ewan Bonham: and you..
Pila Mulligan: :)
Full Text of Desiderata:
Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its shams, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy. -Max Ehrmann
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