The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Yakuzza Lethecus: good afternoon xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Yaku! good afternoon:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zen! :)
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku, Xirana ;)
Zen Arado: sorry I'm late
Yakuzza Lethecus: np
Xirana Oximoxi: no problem! :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hope you both had a good maybe stimulating day so far
Zen Arado: I was ordering a new bed ;)
Zen Arado: uh oh
Xirana Oximoxi: he he restart:)
Zen Arado: restart
Xirana Oximoxi: yes
Zen Arado: Kira?
Xirana Oximoxi: we go to Kira?
Xirana Oximoxi: yes hello Bleu
Yakuzza Lethecus: gosh, i should have come 10 minutes later then i would have had spawned there anyway

System restart: we went to Kira:

Zen (zen.arado): Hi Bleu
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hiya
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): hey bleu, good morning
Bleu (bleu.oleander): heard your uh oh's
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): oh, xiri is getting lost in restart ?
Zen (zen.arado): maybe she is IM'ing
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): are you generally using voicetyping ?
Second Life: Xirana (xirana.oximoxi) is offline.
Zen (zen.arado): just sometimes Yaku
Zen (zen.arado): not atm
Second Life: Xirana (xirana.oximoxi) is online.
Zen (zen.arado): it's funny but I seem to find ways to type
Second Life: Pip Torok is offline.
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hey Xiri :)
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): wb xirana
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ty Yaku..I was stuck :)
Zen (zen.arado): I'm now using my forst finger right hand and I kind of hold the fisrt finger of left inder thumb
Zen (zen.arado): but my typing is bad as you can see ;)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Bleu! :)
Zen (zen.arado): wb Xiri
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ty:)
Zen (zen.arado): I still have to set up French version of voice typing

Bleu's article:

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): interesting article Bleu.....it seems dedicated to Zen and his writing course:)
Zen (zen.arado): I'm afraid my pronunciation isn't good enough
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): (that was yes to Xiri :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): Zen, don't worry at all about pronuntiation!! you will improve it slowly
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps meditation helps writers
Zen (zen.arado): but writing is making up stories
Zen (zen.arado): meditation is seeing through the stories
Bleu (bleu.oleander): inspiration from rl helps .... mindfulness can provide more inspiration I think, agreeing with the article :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I suppose every writer works different and need different context to write, to concentrate, to find sources for their writings
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): helps in art and writing, agree with your comments Zen
Zen (zen.arado): it's the mind settling part, where the mud clears part he is emphasizing
Zen (zen.arado): the snowglobe effect
Zen (zen.arado): ;)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Zen (zen.arado): I write every morning now for 1/2 hour
Zen (zen.arado): just anything
Zen (zen.arado): morning pages
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): that's a good practice
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I think he's also saying that even during the snowglobe blizzard one can practice mindfulness and be "writing" during those times
Zen (zen.arado): but I don't see any great imaginative things coming up :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi San ;)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi San :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): where is San?
s a n (santoshima): morning :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ahh I see:)
Zen (zen.arado): maybe these creative things just come up for some people?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): creativity happens
Zen (zen.arado): or it doesn't?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): haha!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes
visitor: hello nice to meet you
Zen (zen.arado): Hi visitor
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi visitor
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello visitor
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): hey san and visitor
visitor: your house is beautiful
Zen (zen.arado): this is a Play aas being meeting visitor
visitor: can i??
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): heve you been here before?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): you're welcome to join us
Zen (zen.arado): the conversations are recorded on a Wiki
Bleu (bleu.oleander): our house is your house :)
Zen (zen.arado): are you ok with that?
Zen (zen.arado): su casa mi casa ;)
visitor: i want to xxx
visitor: with zen
Zen (zen.arado): ok I sent you a notecard
Zen (zen.arado): oh
Zen (zen.arado): we just chat here visitor
Zen (zen.arado): that's all :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
visitor: do you want to sex with me zen
Zen (zen.arado): no visitor
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): wrong place visitor..you must go to adult place
visitor: sorry
visitor: but where??
Zen (zen.arado): that's funny ..someone else asked me that here a few weeks ago
s a n (santoshima): clarity
s a n (santoshima): they know what they want
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): try the serach of SL :) you type what you look for and maybe you find
visitor: can you show me the way to get there
Zen (zen.arado): hmmm maybe or they have delusions
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): search
s a n (santoshima): both
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): is the Dome already decorated? I have ot visited:)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I am sure Storm will prepare it wonderfully
Bleu (bleu.oleander): last I looked it wasn't
Zen (zen.arado): any exhibits there yet?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): Sat dec 8th installation
visitor: beye
Bleu (bleu.oleander): Storm needs to do his magic first
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): Bleu has told we can put the works on Friday
Zen (zen.arado): bye visitor
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): is that so, Bleu?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): sat.
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye bye
s a n (santoshima): bye visitor
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ah ok, thanks Bleu:)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yw!

Difficulty of clarity:

Zen (zen.arado): clarity is difficult for me
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...not easy:)
Zen (zen.arado): I don't think there is any real clarity underneath
asfyna: shouts: no
Zen (zen.arado): just an inexplicable happening
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): that is the way I have 'interpreted' clarity...as something not easy to find
Bleu (bleu.oleander): something to strive for perhaps?
Zen (zen.arado): clarity we impose on reality but it is a false clarity perhaps
Bleu (bleu.oleander): how does one know?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): maybe momentan or changing clarity
Bleu (bleu.oleander): illusive?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): clarity of what?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi druth :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello druth
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Druth
druth Vlodovic: ty for the tp :)
Zen (zen.arado): clarity is of seeing to me
Zen (zen.arado): of vision
Bleu (bleu.oleander): clarity of perception?
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): clarity of mind?
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): hey druth
druth Vlodovic: hi guys
Zen (zen.arado): I think it started with seeing and we expanded the term
s a n (santoshima): hi druth
Zen (zen.arado): what is a clear mind?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): the quality or state of being clear
Zen (zen.arado): is it possible?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...but what is clear for someone may seem dark for another
druth Vlodovic: I suspect it is a matter of degree :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes :)
Zen (zen.arado): relative clarity
Bleu (bleu.oleander): subjective?
Zen (zen.arado): transparency
Zen (zen.arado): it isn't necessarily orderly?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Eliza :)
Zen (zen.arado): though we seem to associate it with orderliness
druth Vlodovic: orderly would be one way of fooling yourself into thinking you are thinking clearly
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Eliza :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi everyone :) sorry to land on you Bleu
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Eliza:)
druth Vlodovic: another is to have a strong belief that you can use to test reality against
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ha! np
druth Vlodovic: hi eliza
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): morning eliza
Zen (zen.arado): false clarity of orderliness
Zen (zen.arado): clear because you leave a lot of things out by simplifying
Sunshine (szavanna): hi all :)
druth Vlodovic: not sure about "false" necessarily, but a "type" certainly
druth Vlodovic: hi sun
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Sunji ;)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Sunji:)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hey Sunji :)
Sunshine (szavanna): :) nice to see everyone
s a n (santoshima): hello
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): nice to see you too:)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you landed well in a soft open chair ^^
Sunshine (szavanna): ;o)
Zen (zen.arado): heh I had a clear offer anyway :)
Sunshine (szavanna): I did? I am always afraid I will sit on someone hehe :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :) Zen
s a n (santoshima): needing to go ~ bye folks
Zen (zen.arado): all these women wanting to have sex with me, sighs
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me waves
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Sunshine (szavanna): what?
Sunshine (szavanna): what is the topic
Second Life: s a n (santoshima) is offline.
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): we are still trying to clarify how to approach clarity:)
Sunshine (szavanna): oh °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): byee san
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): we obviously arrived at an exciting time Sunji
Sunshine (szavanna): clarity and sex?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye san
Sunshine (szavanna): hmm yes carry on °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): cools down
druth Vlodovic: like zen's clear concept of what is wanted from him ;)
Sunshine (szavanna): ;))
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Zen (zen.arado): [07:26] visitor: do you want to sex with me zen
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me grins
druth Vlodovic: lol
Sunshine (szavanna): ;))
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): he has had an offer :))
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes:)
Zen (zen.arado): looks for frame ;)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but suggests you edit when posting to wiki :)
druth Vlodovic: she didn't even reply to me,I must not be her type
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): just name
Zen (zen.arado): I know
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I guess what happens in SL is that people come in with an objective as though shopping
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes... she has not agreed to be published, at least in open chat
Zen (zen.arado): it happened a few weeks ago here too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and they push buttons until someone says "oh sure"
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): must hang about here more often ;)
Sunshine (szavanna): ;o)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ha!
druth Vlodovic: well,you never know until you ask, right?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): guess so!
Sunshine (szavanna): lol what a chat
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me thinks of all the questions we might go around asking others
Zen (zen.arado): but I didnt ask
Zen (zen.arado): probably kids
Bleu (bleu.oleander): /me is wondering what Zen will title this session :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hehe
Sunshine (szavanna): :))
Second Life: Ari (arisia.vita) is offline.
Zen (zen.arado): propositional clarity?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well, her question was very clear
Bleu (bleu.oleander): clarity in questions
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): concise
Zen (zen.arado): true
Sunshine (szavanna): hmm
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): she's probably a master twitterer
Bleu (bleu.oleander): clear and present danger ... hehe
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hehehe
Zen (zen.arado): hmm doesn't happen that often in RL
Zen (zen.arado): in fact not ever nowadays

Marriage clarity:

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): in all seriousness it is very hard to ask a clear question and answer just that
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and/or
Zen (zen.arado): we like to qualify a lot
Bleu (bleu.oleander): very true Eliza
Zen (zen.arado): fear of refusal or rejection
Sunshine (szavanna): will you marry me ...
Zen (zen.arado): so we flirt etc
Bleu (bleu.oleander): don't always get an answer we want
Zen (zen.arado): test out the waters
Sunshine (szavanna): all these scary questions
Zen (zen.arado): hint
Bleu (bleu.oleander): friend of mine asked "Siri" to marry him
Bleu (bleu.oleander): Siri said not now
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me grins
Bleu (bleu.oleander): haha
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): lol
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
druth Vlodovic: lol
Sunshine (szavanna): later?
Zen (zen.arado): I got one marriage proposal
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): like a magic 8 ball
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you are quite in demand Zen
Zen (zen.arado): was more like person wanted all the ceremony
Bleu (bleu.oleander): must be your rose colored glasses
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): think it is the hair, and well.. glasses....
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ah, she wanted to play out an adventure with you :)
Zen (zen.arado): the person didn't come into SL even all that much
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): play "wedding"
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Wyven, welcome back
Zen (zen.arado): wonder how much of that is in RL too
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Wyven
Wyven: hey eliza
Wyven: is this pab too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): we had a restart so meet here today
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Wyven
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Wyven: hey blue
Bleu (bleu.oleander): moved - region restart
Wyven: oh
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): possibly a lot... of all the weddings I've attended, many were huge and yet the marriages themselves were quite short
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Wyven
Wyven: hi
druth Vlodovic: I keep thinking that people shouldn't be allowed to marry without a prenuptual agreement
Zen (zen.arado): you have been at PaB meetingsd before Wyven?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): more ceremony less substance?
Wyven: i was at one yesteday i think
druth Vlodovic: that way they would each know exactly what was expected
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): perhaps... or the compelling order or linear ritual
Zen (zen.arado): so ok that meetings are recorded and put on a Wiki Wyven?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe druth but people change drastically along the way
Wyven: yea
Zen (zen.arado): great !
druth Vlodovic: maybe an expiry date :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): I'm long past mine :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes or an intermission to revisit... a pause
Bleu (bleu.oleander): what happened to marrying for love? :)
Zen (zen.arado): best before 1970 :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me grins
Sunshine (szavanna): no ways Zenji °͜°
druth Vlodovic: marrying for love isn't really the best way to know it will last
Bleu (bleu.oleander): can you know anything will last?
druth Vlodovic: marry for security and child rearing and have love on the side, like in the old days lol
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :P
Bleu (bleu.oleander): lol
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps a good arrangement
Zen (zen.arado): better for men I suspect
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): one can marry for all the 'right reasons' and find everything wrong, and vice versa
Bleu (bleu.oleander): take it one day at a time perhaps?
Zen (zen.arado): polyamory
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) the theory of polyamore...
Sunshine (szavanna): I am not sure what it is .... the more people I listen to ...the more confused I am about it hmm
Zen (zen.arado): the practice of it
Zen (zen.arado): more difficult
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): has all the downsides of a traditional relationship
Zen (zen.arado): it's too complicated
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): more than one love at the same time? 'poli' ?
Zen (zen.arado): yes Xiri
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): managing time especially and feeling secure
Bleu (bleu.oleander): need clarity there
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): a big muddle I suspect
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): on paper it is a great idea
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): what complexity
Bleu (bleu.oleander): "in theory"
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Sunshine (szavanna): muddle °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): one relationship is complicated enough
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you just communicate a lot and are completely honest with one another...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that's really easy ^^
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): lol
Zen (zen.arado): oh yeh?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): haha
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Sunshine (szavanna): life is poly .... we have relationships of all kinds
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): haha :)) yes...so easy:))
druth Vlodovic: gosh,i wonder if that would work in other situations too eliza?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hard enough to be honest with yourself :)
druth Vlodovic: nahh, I don't think I'll try it
Zen (zen.arado): 'I'm off to have sex with my other partner' byee ;)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): but I love you too:)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) indeed Bleu
druth Vlodovic: have fun all of you :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you too Druth :)
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps I am too jealous
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye druth, have a nice time:)
druth Vlodovic: posessive
druth Vlodovic: it is all about ownership
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well if we are dispassionate for a moment we can see that it perhaps puts sex in a less important place...
Zen (zen.arado): yeh that too
Sunshine (szavanna): hugs Druthy
druth Vlodovic: lol,sorry I thought zen was leaving
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): which may be a healthy thing
Sunshine (szavanna): ahh °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): just rhetorical druth
druth Vlodovic: though I appreciate the hug :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Sunshine (szavanna): hugs Druthy again °͜°
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ahhh :)) ok then nice you still stay
druth Vlodovic: squish!
Sunshine (szavanna): ;D
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ((( group hug )))
Zen (zen.arado): nice ;)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (((((((bleusunwyvenzenxiridruthyaku))))
Sunshine (szavanna): ((( group hug back ;)))
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :D
Zen (zen.arado): clarity in relationships
Sunshine (szavanna): ;p
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): ((((hug)))))
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ty:)) (((group hug too)))
Bleu (bleu.oleander): quite a range ... this session! :)
Zen (zen.arado): is that possible?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I think it is Zen... but hm...
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): it may be Zen's sex appeal....
druth Vlodovic: it is a balance between honouring the other person and honouring yourself
Bleu (bleu.oleander): this could be the "luv session" Zenji

Falsity and Ego:

Zen (zen.arado): if we have ego we are false
Zen (zen.arado): aren't we?
druth Vlodovic: or "respecting" and "accommodating" if you prefer
druth Vlodovic: nah, ego is us
Zen (zen.arado): ego is a front
druth Vlodovic: ego is a necessary part of being human
druth Vlodovic: though it can get out of hand
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so many factors
Zen (zen.arado): our construction of how we want others to see us?
Wyven: ego is something that helps us to look after ourselves and our best interests
druth Vlodovic: right now I'm considering the relationship between ego and flow
druth Vlodovic: they are hardly opposites,but they do need to be balanced
Bleu (bleu.oleander): interesting druth
Zen (zen.arado): but our survival needs deception maybe
druth Vlodovic: ah, ego is our construction of who we think we are
druth Vlodovic: it is our ability to be forceful
Zen (zen.arado): ego wants to be static
Zen (zen.arado): it doesn't like flow
Zen (zen.arado): flow is uncertain
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods.... balanced implies alongside when maybe it is more like interwoven? both allowed for?
druth Vlodovic: ego wants to control the flow
Wyven: what about people who define themselves as ever-changine? :)
druth Vlodovic: determine the outcome
Zen (zen.arado): yes druth
Wyven: changing
Sunshine (szavanna): we do change all the time
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): those are the flow-ers :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): everyone is ever-changing
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): the waves
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): who marry particles
Zen (zen.arado): heh a static flow
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): lol
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Sunshine (szavanna): static flow yes hmm
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): maybe it depends on the speed of changes
Zen (zen.arado): slow change is still change and flow
Zen (zen.arado): mountains flow
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): mmmm
Sunshine (szavanna): ;)))
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that is lovely
Sunshine (szavanna): mmmm
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): if they are too quick, it would be very difficult to 'follow' this person
Zen (zen.arado): just change the time scale
druth Vlodovic: well,we change and still consider ourselves to be the same person
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): true Xiri
druth Vlodovic: we are our own result in many ways
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I like what someone said this morning.... she said that we take credit for all kinds of things but it is sort of like a person who is born in a ski resort to skiiing parents taking credit for knowing how to ski
Zen (zen.arado): are you clear who you are?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there are so many conditions and factors
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I am thinking of a better word 'follow' is not good
Sunshine (szavanna): I wanted to say that liz !...sulks
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): aw Sun
Sunshine (szavanna): giggles
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I take it back :)
Sunshine (szavanna): ty °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): agrees with Liz
Sunshine (szavanna): I just thought of that also Liz
Zen (zen.arado): we are compelled to be who we are
Sunshine (szavanna): hi Aph °͜°
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hey Aph :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Zen that is such a great, but horribly difficult to answer question
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aph ;)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I must go now...take care all and see you soon! :)
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): bye xiana
Aphrodite Macbain: hello

Predictability in relationships:

druth Vlodovic: well,we like others to be predictable
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Xiri :)
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): ehy aph
Zen (zen.arado): byee Xiri
Bleu (bleu.oleander): bye Xiri
Sunshine (szavanna): take care Xiri °͜°
druth Vlodovic: cya xir
druth Vlodovic: hi aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: rumours are the convereation is fascinating
Sunshine (szavanna): true Aph °͜°
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ah, saw the sexy bat signal
Bleu (bleu.oleander): lol
Zen (zen.arado): just not clear ;)
Aphrodite Macbain: sexy bat?
druth Vlodovic: when people aren't predictable we treat them as being more dangerous than someone who we know to be dangerous but in a predictable manner
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me giggles
Sunshine (szavanna): sexy bat??
druth Vlodovic: that would be zen :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): should title the session "see, we do sometimes talk about sex in pab"
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ha!
Aphrodite Macbain: better the devil you know than the devil you dont
Sunshine (szavanna): ;p
Zen (zen.arado): has to censored though ;(
druth Vlodovic: we have to increase traffic somehow ;)
Zen (zen.arado): be
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): only names
Bleu (bleu.oleander): sex therapy
Zen (zen.arado): hmmm true
Sunshine (szavanna): ;o)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that's interesting Druth
Zen (zen.arado): could raise my status :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :) druth
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there is a lojong saying "don't be predictable"
Zen (zen.arado): should we be predictable?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): gives new meaning to the 90 sec pause perhaps?
Zen (zen.arado): ah yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me giggles Bleu
Bleu (bleu.oleander): lol
Aphrodite Macbain: /me listens in bewilderment
Zen (zen.arado): me too Aph :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) sorry... we've gone all over the road....
Bleu (bleu.oleander): "had to be there" :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I do think that relationships are the hardest thing in the world
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): also the most rewarding
Zen (zen.arado): funny I find people seem to find it so easy
Bleu (bleu.oleander): starting with our relationship to the world :)
Sunshine (szavanna): we are products of relationships
Zen (zen.arado): I always found it difficult
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes!, and as you said, our relationshiop to ourselves
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes!
Zen (zen.arado): maybe we think too much
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): relationship, not shop, hehe
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Aphrodite Macbain: we are social beings - some are equipped with social skills, some not
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): relationships as a lab :)
Zen (zen.arado): hmmm thanks Aoh ;)
druth Vlodovic: I see a two person relationship as having three people, each participant and the two of them together
Zen (zen.arado): or relative proportions of social skills
druth Vlodovic: grossly oversimplified,of course
Zen (zen.arado): (hopefully)
Aphrodite Macbain: ideally druth :-)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well social skills are generalized whereas relationships are specific and intimate implies by its nature something very particular
druth Vlodovic: but it also depends on how deeply you want to dig,and how much accommodation you are accustomed to
Bleu (bleu.oleander): actually maybe many more involved in 2 person relationship :)
Sunshine (szavanna): reminds me of Zakir Hussain that talked about his group - Shakti ...as if groupmembers would make up one person ....one member would be the arm, another the legs etc ....and they function in great harmony
Aphrodite Macbain: and how much accommodation you are willing to make druth
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): mmm, love that
Wyven: i see it as more than that... its how they see you and how you are and how you see them and how they are... do we ever really *see* someone totally
Zen (zen.arado): they used that analogy in Christianity a lot
Zen (zen.arado): Paul had a verse about it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): we can't Wyven... true...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): are we safer or better with people when we see our unseeing
Wyven: its also how we see ourselves..
Wyven: which again may be removed from the truth
Zen (zen.arado): I am a mystery to me
Aphrodite Macbain: Paul had verses about a lot of things
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜° Zenji
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps others see us more clearly?
Sunshine (szavanna): Zenji is a mystery
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it is a good question
Aphrodite Macbain: they see parts of us more clearly
Zen (zen.arado): or they see what they want to see?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): they say if you want to know something about yourself ... ask others
Zen (zen.arado): love is like that
Sunshine (szavanna): they can see my nose better ;p
Aphrodite Macbain: as do we

Open or secretive?

druth Vlodovic: I get accused of beign secretive,and I think I'm finally figuring out that part of that is that I engage in entirely too much accomodation, hence my defence of ego :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me giggles Sun
Zen (zen.arado): you see an idealized verson of person
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Wyven: they can see us more clearly in some areas we are blind to.. but miss things about us that they either cant or wont see
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): druth, trying to please everyone? be protective?
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting druth by being secretive you are defending your ego?
druth Vlodovic: changing myself to "fit" the person or situation better
Zen (zen.arado): I can see that
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): impossible trap
Aphrodite Macbain: and then you disappear?
Zen (zen.arado): less they know less vulnerability
druth Vlodovic: I was never trying to be secretive in the first place, and was always surprised to be accused of it
Aphrodite Macbain: as social beings we all do that to some extent
Sunshine (szavanna): yes hmm
Zen (zen.arado): yes...protective barriers
Zen (zen.arado): 'let down our guard' as we go along
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I'm not sure anyone can handle the totality of another person
druth Vlodovic: peoplesee your more forceful bits much more easily
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps those who accuse you aren't hearing you properly
Bleu (bleu.oleander): my dog likes to be secretive and hide his head ... doesn't realize that we can see the other 90lbs of him haha
Zen (zen.arado): being secretive is counter productive though?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): heheh Bleu
Zen (zen.arado): :) Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: it's being self protective
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): exactly
Zen (zen.arado): the more pen we are the more likelihood people won't misunderstand us?
druth Vlodovic: people can hardly adjust to accommodate to needs they don't know you have
Zen (zen.arado): open
Zen (zen.arado): yes Druth
Wyven: has anyone heard of the johari window
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Ohh yes...
Zen (zen.arado): no Wyven?
Wyven: if you havent id recommend you look it up sometime
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "how do you present?"
Wyven: interesting theory about group dynamics and secrecy and self knowledge and such
Aphrodite Macbain: what is it Wyven?
Zen (zen.arado): can you elaborate Wy?
Wyven: its a theory that is visualised as four squares
Wyven: they all shrink and grow depending on what you decide to focus on
Zen (zen.arado): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window
Wyven: yea wikipedia will probably explain it better than my typing
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): shows up the filters?
Zen (zen.arado): not necessarily Wy
Zen (zen.arado): just added information
druth Vlodovic: I'd like to hear your take on it wyv
Wyven: what i found interesting was how the theory suggested that as we know more about ourselves, the other windows shrink.. more is known to others by default but also our own blind spot shrinks
Zen (zen.arado): hmmm yes makes sense
Aphrodite Macbain: “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.”
ʉۥ Rumi
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "coming out"
Zen (zen.arado): yes Aph ;)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): nice, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: I've been reading Rumi
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Zen (zen.arado): and faults we see in others are ones we have too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "how do porcupines mate?" (thomas crown)
Aphrodite Macbain: crefully
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): heheheh
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Aphrodite Macbain: carefully
Bleu (bleu.oleander): lol
Zen (zen.arado): but the more I examine 'myself' the more it disappears
Zen (zen.arado): it is made of ideas
Aphrodite Macbain: slipsiding away
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods... like if you try to write your life story and find there is no 'my' life's story
Zen (zen.arado): if I don't believe the ideas what is left?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): seems many of the adjectives used could be defined in different ways so maybe hard to rely on the johari window?
Wyven: but it also seemed to suggest that the less we let others know of us, the less we understood ourselves too.. which i find curious and almost.. paradoxical. how can keeping secrets from others influence our lack of self knowledge? i suppose by not sharing.. no one else shares in return
Zen (zen.arado): I find psychological techniques seem to introduce a kind of false exactness
druth Vlodovic: noting is perfect, tools have to be used for their right purposes
Wyven: and thus we are also blind to ourselves
druth Vlodovic: actually I can see that wyv
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so a question becomes how do we share?
Aphrodite Macbain: we are the elephant
Aphrodite Macbain: as well as the eggman
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
druth Vlodovic: what we seek to hide is what we feel ashamed of, or afraid of,so we will naturally hide it from ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: and the walrus
Zen (zen.arado): maybe we only exist as reflections form others?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me loves you guys
Aphrodite Macbain: and certainly from others
Aphrodite Macbain: loves you
Sunshine (szavanna): /me loves you guys too °͜°
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ((( another group hug )))
druth Vlodovic: alsoby revealing things we get to see their reflections in others,and from others
druth Vlodovic: super huggs :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ((((( ))))))
Sunshine (szavanna): ;o)
Zen (zen.arado): we test ourselves from others' reactions?
druth Vlodovic: well, of course
Wyven: right yea druth
Sunshine (szavanna): yes
Zen (zen.arado): or even form ourselves to please them?
Sunshine (szavanna): I always check if people around me smile
Bleu (bleu.oleander): have to say bye for now ... interesting session Zinji :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) Sun
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Bye Bleu, fun session ty ^^
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hugs!
Sunshine (szavanna): take care Bleuji °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): byee Bleu ;)
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): bye bleu, bye everyone
druth Vlodovic: not necessarilyto please them, though that comes up if you have concern for others
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Bleu
druth Vlodovic: cya bleu
Zen (zen.arado): byee Yaku
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I can think of many times in life when I thought the impetus was on me to share, so I got up courage and fears were confirmed, at least in the short term
druth Vlodovic: actually that is two different things isn't it, reacting from concern for others and reacting to protect your own reputation
Sunshine (szavanna): I tried to "share myself" when I started running my opencafe here in africa
Zen (zen.arado): well if we make a distinction or a strong one between ourself and others?
Sunshine (szavanna): and see how people react
Wyven: we hide to protect ourselves... but also to protect others who simply dont need to know or may not want to know or cant handle all of us
druth Vlodovic: fears are (usually) bigger and longer term in the mind than in reality
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what did you learn Sun?
Sunshine (szavanna): hmm I learned that I can share lots ...but the sharing doesn't usually come back hmm
Zen (zen.arado): how do I know what others can handle of me?
Zen (zen.arado): unless they tell me :)
Zen (zen.arado): yes Sun
Sunshine (szavanna): I made an internet cafe out of my house and taught all I know to everyone that needed it ...
Sunshine (szavanna): for 10 years
Sunshine (szavanna): but very very few people returned this idea
Sunshine (szavanna): or opened up
Zen (zen.arado): but you were a kind of missionary in a way Sun
Aphrodite Macbain: wonder why
Sunshine (szavanna): have u had this experience?
Sunshine (szavanna): hehe
Sunshine (szavanna): yes
Zen (zen.arado): and results don't always flow automatically
Sunshine (szavanna): of course
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): sort of
Zen (zen.arado): and you don't know what good you did in the long term
Sunshine (szavanna): I thought everyone would become an open source maniac ;p
druth Vlodovic: there is a certain distance that people like to have between themselves and others.sometimes moving forward makes them move back,rather than forward
Sunshine (szavanna): but I did that without even really deeply understanding the people
Sunshine (szavanna): true Druthy
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): my actual sense is that from a deeply surrendered spiritual place one could give over figuring out what to share or not share... that it would skilfully arise from the situation, naturally manifest...
druth Vlodovic: if the goalwas to establish open relationships between yourself and others,that might work
Zen (zen.arado): sometimes you can labour for years with nothing happening then suddenly somethinng catches on
Sunshine (szavanna): hmm yes
Zen (zen.arado): a kind of skilful means Eliza?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but that surrender is found in lots of situations where one tries and fails
Sunshine (szavanna): things happen ...just not the way I expected
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Zen (zen.arado): skilful sharing
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): indeed Sun
Aphrodite Macbain: yes exactly Zen
Sunshine (szavanna): it has been a great experience for me
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): causes and effects aren't clear cut
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): one thing opens to another often
Zen (zen.arado): we try to make it seem that way
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but not in a linear way
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Sunshine (szavanna): People in South Africa are very very different from hungarians
Zen (zen.arado): we aren't the prime mover either
Sunshine (szavanna): so relationships can be taking long
Sunshine (szavanna): ( was that english ;p
Zen (zen.arado): near enough ;)
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): was english Sun
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hehe
Sunshine (szavanna): ;D
Aphrodite Macbain: you make a lot of sense sun
druth Vlodovic: it was suggested to me that the more conflict there is in a nation the more wary and closed people will be naturally
Sunshine (szavanna): hmm like in South Africa
Zen (zen.arado): yes and in groups too
Sunshine (szavanna): very complex place
Sunshine (szavanna): compared to hungary
Zen (zen.arado): 'open climate' is much better
Aphrodite Macbain: the more sunny it is the more people are out in the streets meeting each other
Sunshine (szavanna): Aph °͜°
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) Aph
Sunshine (szavanna): not true hmm not here
Zen (zen.arado): yeh sunny climate helps too ;)
Sunshine (szavanna): people live behind fences
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm so much for my theory!
druth Vlodovic: you have to stop shooting at each other first :)
Zen (zen.arado): oh
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yeah....
Sunshine (szavanna): people are afraid to meet here
Aphrodite Macbain: make love not war
Aphrodite Macbain: got to go -
Sunshine (szavanna): lots ot crime
Zen (zen.arado): kk byee Aph
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): [tries not to look at the clock] bye Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: lots of love
Sunshine (szavanna): take care Aph hugs ;))
Sunshine (szavanna): hehe Liz
druth Vlodovic: that is how Canada gets most of it's immigrants, people don't want to come here,they just want to get away from violence and death
Sunshine (szavanna): ❤
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe the internet is a helpful buffer.... people meet behind the screens first over time, poke holes in ideas of separation
Zen (zen.arado): not a bd motive though ;)
Sunshine (szavanna): true yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): then suddenly pop, something shifts
Sunshine (szavanna): I was thinking - an SA secondlife would be great
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes!
Sunshine (szavanna): as an experiment
Wyven: SA?
Sunshine (szavanna): south africa
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Sunshine (szavanna): people could meet slowly
druth Vlodovic: g2g, have fun all :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there are a lot of great communication tools but to use them people have to feel open/safe first
Sunshine (szavanna): and see that we don't bite hehe
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that's what's hard
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Bye Druth :)
Zen (zen.arado): Sun is a Hungarian S. African ;)
Sunshine (szavanna): take care Druthy ❤
Zen (zen.arado): byee Druth
Wyven: in a script and rezzing disabled area i guess ;P
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): a playful environment
Sunshine (szavanna): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): okay it is too late, I saw the clock and it is ticking in my head
Sunshine (szavanna): giggles
Sunshine (szavanna): tick tick
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hehhe
Sunshine (szavanna): and Zenji needs to make dinner
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): an African guy friended me on Facebook but he started asking me for money
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): busy day, and yes don't want to starve Zenji.. he needs his energy for the ladies :)
Sunshine (szavanna): omg really Zenji
Sunshine (szavanna): grrr
Zen (zen.arado): heh
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Wyven: lol
Sunshine (szavanna): take care Zenji what a fun chat
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hugs, thanks for the whirlwind session
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bfn
Sunshine (szavanna): great meeting you Wyven °͜°
Wyven: cyas
Wyven: :D
Zen (zen.arado): thanks for coming everyne
Zen (zen.arado): hugs
Sunshine (szavanna): see u soon all
Sunshine (szavanna): hugs °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): byee
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Wyven glad you came back
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): see you again
Wyven: :)