2012.12.20 07:00 - Without words

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Xirana Oximoxi: 's current display-name is "Xirana".
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Storm:)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Xirana!
SophiaSharon Larnia: 's current display-name is "Sophia".
Storm Nordwind: Hi Sophia!
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Storm and Xirina :) A bit of lag just got me
Storm Nordwind: They lie in wait for unsuspecting visitors
Xirana Oximoxi: yes... I've seen you passing through the panel...:)
SophiaSharon Larnia: and the pounce, indeed :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: then

Rubbish!

Xirana Oximoxi: I was wonderig about the subject of this week and a converstaion I've had with Rid...do you think it is possible to develop thoughts and imaginations without language ?...I mean, words?
Storm Nordwind: Yes
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: couls you please explain how do you see it?
Xirana Oximoxi: a little bit
Storm Nordwind: I saw the statement in the guardian meeting log that said: "Well, the concept is familiar to linguists: that we cannot imagine or will what we have no language for.... and also, that our language directly affects what we remember, and shapes our memories...."
Storm Nordwind: and I thought, "Rubbish" :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :)) I was nearly sure you would have a different point of view:)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Storm Nordwind: I was married to a linguist for 10 years. :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hehe :))
Xirana Oximoxi: did it give you a different perception about language?
Storm Nordwind: Linguists are oh-so-sure they are right. But they are (to use a cliche) very left brained about it, and cannot seem to see the right brained approach. (Though right brained usually appreciates the left brained as well)

Getting in the way.

SophiaSharon Larnia: are you talking partly about the formation of memories without language?
Storm Nordwind: Language is a tool. It's not a precursor to imagination. It can even get in the way of imagining.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, I think the 'getting in the way' was what he was teasing out of the box
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe people that can 'drop' all verbal thougts of their mind are able to develop another perception and knowledge of everything
Storm Nordwind: Language - like many things - can be an inspiration for imagination. But it is by no means a necessity.
Storm Nordwind: That is one message behind my clarity sculpture. :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: you have two...one with champagen:)) and the other one with at least 20 words to say 'clarity'
SophiaSharon Larnia: the limbic system, arguably pre-language, is a place where memories are thought to be imprinted. Especially emotioanl ones
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: yes. I meant the ONE WORD sculpture. The bottle of claret wine is a comic piece
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: I like both:)
SophiaSharon Larnia: ah I see :D I loved both of them Storm. And your sculture was so thought provoking as well, Xirana.
Xirana Oximoxi: ty Sophia... all works are really interesting.....
Xirana Oximoxi: you've left it to our interpreation...which is also a new way to see clarity
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe is that what I did? awesome!
SophiaSharon Larnia: joking
Xirana Oximoxi: :)

What is imagination anyway?

Storm Nordwind: Another problem with the week's theme lies in the lack of definition of "imagination". What is it? Is it the creative act? Or is it merely the ability to perceive mental images, either created, remembered, or given to us from elsewhere?
SophiaSharon Larnia: right. Getting in my car to go to work requires an act of imagination everyday.
SophiaSharon Larnia: so something more specific?
Xirana Oximoxi: most common for 'imagination is a 'creative act' to change what we perceive as the 'real' way of things happening
Storm Nordwind: Does the imagination of a poet think in words and set them down? Or does it think in emotions and translate them? Or something else? Or does it vary at different times?
SophiaSharon Larnia: I think it could vbe either, Storm. :) What I would like to get at is an experiment that would show me how language affects my imagination.
Xirana Oximoxi: I don't know...but probably ithey look for words that can express their emotions

Thinking in flashes.

Storm Nordwind: I do not think in words, at least not primarily. I think in "flashes" and i translate them into words if I need to communicate them.
SophiaSharon Larnia: are these flashes primarily visual? They are for me.
Storm Nordwind: No. They can be, but not primarily. They are flashes of awareness and comprehension.
SophiaSharon Larnia: listens
Storm Nordwind: Hard to describe further really. For example, I just perceive a whole situation, or the whole of a part of a situation.
Storm Nordwind: I'm not really a linear, logical - or even rational - thinker! :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe we have to st two parts on this perception...the one that is individual..and does not need words, ant the second part, when you want to transmit it to others....
--BELL--

Without words.

Storm Nordwind: But even transmitting it to others doesn't need words. Obviously there are artworks that can do this. We are all three experienced with that. But what about direct transmission like telepathy, which I have experimented and I know can work?
SophiaSharon Larnia: I very definately thought in words/language during the last 90 seconds
SophiaSharon Larnia: but do people explain your works to themselves in words?
Storm Nordwind: Maybe linguists do!!
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh I think that is an energy thing, I have to give that more thought Storm
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
Xirana Oximoxi: me too... never experienced telephaty and I thought it was like transmiting thoughts, but I see, it can be also transmission of 'energy' and sensations...
SophiaSharon Larnia: I know how I may feel when I look at piece of art (no matter what the artist ssid it was about). But I think I still explain my feelings to myself in worss
SophiaSharon Larnia: words
Storm Nordwind: Ah... I don't do that Sophia. I just perceive and let it soak in
Xirana Oximoxi: I can feel works of art without words...another thing is if I want to explain or anylise
SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe I just talk to myself too much ;p
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Can you say more Xirana?
Xirana Oximoxi: like whe you hear to music,...I usally feel it
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods!
Storm Nordwind: To make telepathy work, the receiving person needs to forgo thinking in words, or even following sensations. They need to be a blank slate - to let things arise and pass without following them or verbalizing them
Xirana Oximoxi: it is the same with paintings....well...some paintings
Xirana Oximoxi: other works of art need to do a reflexion to understand and to interpret, then, I use words
Storm Nordwind: Again, my personal experience is that words get in the way of reflection. Though some people, bloggers, diary keeps and journal writes, swear by them!
SophiaSharon Larnia: it sounds like an emotional response.
Xirana Oximoxi: even if I may always have a first impression ..yes, emotional
Storm Nordwind: Mine is never an emotional response. Nor a verbal one. It is just percception.
SophiaSharon Larnia: and about being a blank slate, well, I pick things up pretty regularly and Im not a blank slate. (random stuff though)
Xirana Oximoxi: I am not sure what involves the word 'emotional' :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm thinking :D
Storm Nordwind: Telepathy is hard to train. It's unreliable for most people and patchy even for the more able. And why bother when you can use your cellphone? ;)
SophiaSharon Larnia: because its fun
Xirana Oximoxi: haha :)))
Storm Nordwind: Fun? Not really. I was much more able than most and it was hard work!
SophiaSharon Larnia: this is a hard conversation and there are a lot of threads here that need to be clarified and teased apart, although they are similiar
Xirana Oximoxi: I smiled about the cellphone! :)
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...different subjects
SophiaSharon Larnia: I was joking about the fun bit, but I do think its fun.
Storm Nordwind: I think they different facets of the same subject
SophiaSharon Larnia: right
Xirana Oximoxi: yes
Xirana Oximoxi: I am still wondering about perceiving..not emotional, not verbal
Storm Nordwind: It's what I do nearly all the time
SophiaSharon Larnia: no interpretor?
Xirana Oximoxi: does it mean you have a strong self controll of emotions?
Xirana Oximoxi: for exemple?
Storm Nordwind: Not sure what you mean by interpreter.
SophiaSharon Larnia: Í'am the interpretor, the oneexplaining what I see in words to myself
Storm Nordwind: And emotions are not me. I can see them rise and see them pass. I can choose whether or not to identify with them and usually don't.
Storm Nordwind: One can interpret without words, surely?
--BELL--
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes in that flash that you described perhaps
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now, have a nice day! and ty for sharing 'thoughts' :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Xirana
Storm Nordwind: Good to see you Xirana!
SophiaSharon Larnia: take care
Xirana Oximoxi: take care too

Not understanding.

SophiaSharon Larnia: there is too much here for me to talk about just now. I haven't given it enough thought yet. I'm confusing myself!
Storm Nordwind: haha! No problem. It's something I rarely verbalize.
Storm Nordwind: Though I will say this...
Storm Nordwind: When married to a linguist for 10 years, we found that she "didn't understand me" in all that time, perhaps because she was using linguistic-type tools to do so. (Whereas my now-wife did within days!) ;-))
SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting point to consider :)
Storm Nordwind: And my wife now is a professional artist and once used to teach people how to unleash their right brain through art.
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) I would do well to take one of her classess :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I wish she could come here and teach them in SL
Storm Nordwind: I wonder if that's possible. Probably not, because (a) you have to learn SL building tools, and (b) you are limited by those same tools
SophiaSharon Larnia: right
SophiaSharon Larnia: sighs
Storm Nordwind: If you're ever in Denver... :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe yes that would be perfect :D
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now Storm!
Storm Nordwind: Bye!
SophiaSharon Larnia: stay warm