2012.12.17 13:00 - Small Flash Mob of Vigorous Discussion

Eliza posted this session from the auto-listener database, as the sun was rising, on Christmas Eve...

[12:57] Korel Laloix: Heya.... smiles
[12:57] Chraeloos Resident: HI Korel :)
[12:57] Chraeloos Resident: how are you?
[12:57] Korel Laloix: I few things going on, but overall I coan't complain.
[12:57] Korel Laloix: YOu?
[12:58] Chraeloos Resident: I'm good thanks, sick atm but tis the season haha
[12:58] Korel Laloix: Well hope you get better soon.
[12:58] Korel Laloix: Lots of people have been out of it recently.
[12:58] Chraeloos Resident: thank you!
[12:59] Chraeloos Resident: oh yeah, it's been a bad year for being sick
[12:59] Chraeloos Resident: it keeps coming around, and it changes every time lol

[12:59] Korel Laloix: I think I ahve met you here before... is that right?
[13:00] Chraeloos Resident: I believe so - I host discussions around the grid, and go to many so we've probably been somewhere together before
[13:00] Chraeloos Resident: Your name rings a bell, but I can't place you, sorry!
[13:01] Korel Laloix: No worries.. but you do know about the log and the like.
[13:01] Korel Laloix: I have a fairly poor name in some places though.
[13:01] Chraeloos Resident: that's not good, sorry to hear
[13:01] Chraeloos Resident: the log?
[13:02] Korel Laloix: The chats here are logged on the wiki.
[13:02] Korel Laloix: Have you heard that notice yet?
[13:02] Chraeloos Resident: Oh, yes, I have been here once or twice before
[13:02] Korel Laloix: Great.
[13:03] Korel Laloix: There is an art exhibit going on over at the domme as well.

[13:03] Chraeloos Resident: oh great, I'll have to take a look. I haven't explored this sim yet
[13:04] Korel Laloix: There are some nice things...
[13:04] Korel Laloix: I have my own little pagoda as well.
[13:04] Korel Laloix: Not really a SL home, but nice to have a place to hang some things.
[13:04] Chraeloos Resident: Oh neat, yeah thats always nice to have your own space
[13:05] Korel Laloix: Sort of.. don't use it a lot.
[13:05] Korel Laloix: Never go the hang of Sl houses.
[13:05] Chraeloos Resident: haha, I started using my house as an event venue so its not very private anymore

[13:06] Chraeloos Resident: Are there usually more people at these discussions?
[13:06] Korel Laloix: Yes... usually a lot mre.
[13:06] Korel Laloix: But a slow day today.
[13:06] Korel Laloix: and I am at work so could be in and out.
[13:06] Korel Laloix: But bored at the moment.

[13:07] Chraeloos Resident: hm, let me see if I can get more people here. I think the topic "The Effect of Language on Imagination" could be very interesting
[13:07] Korel Laloix: We were talking about that a lot last time I was here.
[13:07] Korel Laloix: As English is not my native langauge, I have some persepcives on it.
[13:08] Chraeloos Resident: oh, I'd love to hear them

[13:08] Korel Laloix: Well, there are just biases that langauge puts in.
[13:08] Korel Laloix: Gender in som languages does just that.
[13:09] Chraeloos Resident: Yeah, gender is a big one. And subject, I think. "I", "Me," "Mine."

[13:09] Korel Laloix: In a lot of FA langauges, nouns are either animate or inanimate.

[13:09] Korel Laloix: So you don' get the structureal sexism in the language like you do in Deutsche or Italian.
[13:10] Chraeloos Resident: Hi Al, nice to see you :)
[13:10] Chraeloos Resident: Thats interesting Korel, I can see how that would affect society too
[13:10] Korel Laloix: BOzho
[13:10] Al Hamelin: hi ㋡
[13:11] Korel Laloix: And most FA lanaguges are verb centric, so that can change the flavor of meaning as well.

[13:11] Chraeloos Resident: What is "FA"? Just to clarify :)
[13:11] Korel Laloix: First American.
[13:11] Chraeloos Resident: Oh, definitely, and the order the sentence is structured makes a difference too, I think
[13:11] Chraeloos Resident: Hi Visitor 2! Glad you could make it :)
[13:11] Korel Laloix: Bozho
[13:12] Visitor 2: Hello everyone
[13:12] Visitor 1: hi korel

[13:12] Korel Laloix: And I brought up a book I had to read once... 1984.
[13:12] Chraeloos Resident: So the topic that they've put on the board is "The Effect of Language on Imagination"
[13:12] Chraeloos Resident: THe first place my mind goes with that is, does language inhibit imagination?
[13:12] Korel Laloix: Where they were shrinking the language so people could not think to rebell.
[13:12] Chraeloos Resident: That is a good book
[13:12] Visitor 2: yes I think it does..
[13:13] Korel Laloix: Or does language provide a framework from which to build imagination.
[13:13] Visitor 1: hi chip
[13:13] Chraeloos Resident: Korel, exactly!
[13:13] Chraeloos Resident: Hi welcome!
[13:13] Visitor 2: it does both
[13:13] Chraeloos Resident: so there is a grey area?
[13:13] Korel Laloix: When I look at some modern art.. it is just crap... paint dripped on a board.
[13:13] Korel Laloix: That is not art, tha tis not creative.
[13:13] Chraeloos Resident: lol Korel, I know what you're talking about
[13:14] Visitor 1: only if you dont know the other languages
[13:14] Visitor 2: it is what is said and who hears it...
[13:14] Korel Laloix: So I think structure helps imagination.
[13:14] Chraeloos Resident: I agree completely. And their perception of it
[13:14] Wol Euler: evening all

[13:14] Korel Laloix: But you can't write a poem without language.
[13:14] Chraeloos Resident: Ah, but a poet would say that poems exist in everything, no? Everything is poetry?
[13:15] Visitor 2: Hi :)
[13:15] Chraeloos Resident: Hi Wol, welcome :)
[13:15] Visitor 1: hi wol
[13:16] Wol Euler: thank you, nice to meet you all
[13:16] Korel Laloix: I think it is supposed to be Boxy's session.

[13:16] Chraeloos Resident: The best way I can think of this in non-linguistic terms is to compare it to dreams. I can only dream about things I've seen or experienced - my dreams may have geometrical objects in them that are impossible in this world, but that doesn't mean that they aren't based on the same principles that I know are possible.

[13:16] Korel Laloix: But I claimed it Wol.
[13:16] Wol Euler: thank you
[13:17] Korel Laloix: But.... I do need to do the standard announcement.
[13:17] Wol Euler: yes, you do :)
[13:17] Korel Laloix: Has everyone been here before?
[13:17] Wol Euler: otherwise Pema and I are in trouble
[13:17] Wol Euler smiles.
[13:17] Chraeloos Resident: I have been here once or twice, but that was ages ago
[13:17] Korel Laloix: The record of these chats is posted on line at the PaB wiki
[13:17] Wiki Wendel: yes
[13:17] Chip Althouse: first time for me
[13:18] Korel Laloix: I just want your permission to post those on teh log.
[13:18] Korel Laloix: If you don't mind.
[13:18] Chraeloos Resident: fine by me
[13:18] Chip Althouse: granted
[13:18] Korel Laloix: Thanks.
[13:18] Korel Laloix: Al?
[13:18] Al Hamelin: yes
[13:18] Korel Laloix: OK.. thanks all.
[13:18] Wol Euler smiles.
[13:18] Al Hamelin: i havent been here before

          [so Eliza will stop editing for visitor 1 and 2 now, hah] ;-)

[13:19] Wol Euler: back in a sec, need a drink to clear my throat
[13:19] Korel Laloix: WE post the logs of these chats on the Play as Being Wiki.
[13:19] Korel Laloix: This is a discussion group that usually hits one topic per week.
[13:19] Wiki Wendel: ok
[13:20] Korel Laloix: THis week we are chatting about The Effect of Language on Imagination.
[13:20] Korel Laloix: So I just want to make sure we can publish your comments.
[13:20] Korel Laloix: Is that OK Al?
[13:21] Korel Laloix: Anway... back to the subject.

[13:21] Korel Laloix: I just think language can effect how perceptions are built.
[13:21] Al Hamelin: ok
[13:21] Korel Laloix: As a non native ENlighs speaker, I see some things.
[13:21] Korel Laloix: Thanks Al.
[13:21] Korel Laloix: And my typing and spelling suck as well... smiles

[13:22] Chraeloos Resident: Korel, I agree. Do you think as babies we build some perceptions without language?
[13:22] Al Hamelin: only a baby could tell you that surely
[13:22] Wiki Wendel: and with
[13:22] Korel Laloix: There is some good research on the developement of lanaguge capabilities very young.
[13:22] Chraeloos Resident: lol Al
[13:23] Korel Laloix: But no something that you could do directly.
[13:23] Wol Euler: ((sorry, I'm going to hvae to step away for a while))

[13:23] Chraeloos Resident: Good point. I've heard there are sturides about babies learning in the womb, including language
[13:23] Chraeloos Resident: take good care Wol
[13:23] Korel Laloix: Take care.
[13:24] Chraeloos Resident: studies, I mean, not sturides - whatever that is lol
[13:24] Korel Laloix: And there there are biases built in in terms of grammer.
[13:24] Korel Laloix: Like some langauges have a duel case evidently.
[13:25] Korel Laloix: And in those languages I have read, paired things have more empahsis than in non deuled tense langauge.
[13:25] Korel Laloix: But I have no document to back up that assertion.
[13:25] Chraeloos Resident: Can you give an example?
[13:25] Wiki Wendel: and may be used differently in different families
[13:26] Korel Laloix: Need to find one...... looking for it...
[13:27] Korel Laloix: This is where I need that reference.
[13:27] Chraeloos Resident: lol
[13:27] Chraeloos Resident: Wiki, yes I agree that it changes with families. Even friends and work places, too
[13:27] Chraeloos Resident: Basically any social group
[13:28] Wiki Wendel: true..

[13:28] Chraeloos Resident: so what restrictions would language have on imagination?
[13:28] Korel Laloix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_(g...atical_number)
[13:28] Korel Laloix: All I can offer at the moment.
[13:29] Chraeloos Resident: thats really neat Korel, I hadn't heard that term before
[13:29] Korel Laloix: Maybe not a limitation..

[13:29] Wiki Wendel: and language to... I had a friend who spoke other languages... and even when a word had the same meaning in both ... sometimes it brought different feeling.... if that makes any sense

[13:29] Korel Laloix: But maybe limits your ability to express your imagination.
[13:29] Korel Laloix: I know exactly how that feels.
[13:30] Wiki Wendel: BRB
[13:31] Korel Laloix: ENglish is my primary, but not what I grew up with.
[13:32] Chraeloos Resident: Wiki, I can understand that it has a different feeling

[13:32] Chip Althouse: Maybe we can all agree that imagination is not DEPENDENT on language .. but can be stimulated by language ...?
[13:32] Chraeloos Resident: Korel, I can see that language would limit the ability to express the imagination, but does it limit the imagination itself? I guess what I'm asking is if our thoughts are limited by our language - even the non-linguistic ones?
[13:33] Chraeloos Resident: Chip, I would definitely agree
[13:33] Chip Althouse: One can visualize a wheel -- without knowing any language at all
[13:33] Chip Althouse: as a way to ease carrying things
[13:34] Chraeloos Resident: Very true Chip

[13:35] Chraeloos Resident: I guess I'm kind of looking at Plato's Theory of Forms - where we have an idea for something and give it a name, but the name could mean different things to different people. So the idea stays the same, it is eternal, but what we call it is different. Is that what we're getting at as the difference between language (name) and imagination (idea)?

[13:36] Korel Laloix: I dont think our imagination is inhibited by language.. maybe it helps it.
[13:36] Chip Althouse: "Wheel" in English... another name in Spanish...? who cares?
[13:36] Chraeloos Resident: Chip, the idea of the wheel is like you mentioned earlier, "as a way to ease carrying things"
[13:36] Chip Althouse: but someone might ask, "can we make that wheel softer?"
[13:37] Chraeloos Resident: But, many objects have that effect - tray's, cups, etc.
[13:37] Chip Althouse: so language stimulated the invention of the tire?
[13:37] Chraeloos Resident: No Chip, lol, just our idea of the wheel
[13:37] Korel Laloix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiYYDSivdRk
[13:37] Korel Laloix: I appologize for this in advance.. but it makes a point.
[13:38] Chraeloos Resident: lol Korel, nice
[13:39] Chip Althouse: Explain, Chrae

[13:40] Chraeloos Resident: Well, if I say "wheel" everyone who speaks English will understand that I mean "something round that has a purpose, usually for transporting things." But that same purpose can be applied to a round tray, a bowl, plate, spoon, etc.
[13:41] Chraeloos Resident: so the purpose of the word means something specific within a group of things very similar

[13:41] Korel Laloix: Context is a tool that the creative can use to really expand their ideas.
[13:41] Chraeloos Resident: Right, Korel
[13:41] Korel Laloix: I like langague...

[13:42] Chraeloos Resident: So, in our imaginations, does our language limit the context of said imagination?
[13:42] Korel Laloix: But I do see its limits as well.
[13:42] Wiki Wendel: sorry hate to miss this but need to go... thanks
[13:42] Chraeloos Resident: Korel, agreed
[13:42] Chip Althouse: But still, everyone who looks at a wheel can descibe it in his or her own language
[13:42] Chraeloos Resident: Take good care Wiki
[13:42] Korel Laloix: Take care.
[13:42] Korel Laloix: True.
[13:42] Chip Althouse: it's still a wheel

[13:42] Chraeloos Resident: Right Chip, that's all I'm saying. It is a wheel, no matter how you describe it
[13:42] Chip Althouse: it doesn't become a cup
[13:42] Chraeloos Resident: the idea of it stays the same
[13:42] Chip Althouse: yes
[13:42] Chraeloos Resident: but it's purpose can be "borrowed" by other things

[13:43] Korel Laloix: But can you talk about women's rights if your language makes all things week and mushy female and all things strong and smart male?

[13:43] Chraeloos Resident: it isn't the only thing with that description
[13:43] Chraeloos Resident: Ooh, good question Korel
[13:43] Chraeloos Resident: again, its in the context, I think
[13:44] Korel Laloix: Maybe lack of creativity limits language.

[13:45] Chraeloos Resident: Ok Chip, here's another example of what I'm trying to say. A child has a best friend. They walk and talk and play just like all the other kids. But, it turns out they are their imaginary friend. They exist because the child believes in them, interacts with them even. But to the other children they don't exist. So, when they come home and tell their parents that they have a new best friend, they aren't kidding, but the parents may not take them seriously.

[13:45] Chraeloos Resident: Korel, interesting, if you take it the other way what happens. Good point!

[13:46] Chip Althouse: That imaginary friend would be there even if no language existed

[13:46] Chraeloos Resident: So again, the childs imagination is thriving, and they in their own context it makes sense, but to an outsider, they wouldn't see it.
[13:46] Chraeloos Resident: Right Chip
[13:46] Chraeloos Resident: and to them in their own context*
[13:47] Chip Althouse: Describing it or believing it doesn't change the imaginary friend
[13:47] Chraeloos Resident: So their language is communicating something that the other people can't see
[13:47] Chraeloos Resident: Right Chip, exactly
[13:47] Chip Althouse: so language has NO effect
[13:47] Chraeloos Resident: so the idea of the imaginary friend transends language
[13:47] Chip Althouse: right

[13:47] Korel Laloix: And then there are people that refuse to accept the context of language so refuse to accept the full content.
[13:48] Chraeloos Resident: So is language only limiting when trying to share your ideas with others?
[13:48] Chip Althouse: communication is another matter
[13:48] Chraeloos Resident: Korel, agreed
[13:48] Chip Althouse: communication isn't imagination
[13:48] Chraeloos Resident: No, but imagination helps communication

[13:48] Chip Althouse: why? the imaginary friend is still hangin' around
[13:48] Chip Althouse: so is the tire
[13:48] Chip Althouse: I mean wheel lol

[13:49] Chraeloos Resident: Of course, but if I'm trying to communicate with someone who speaks a different language, I have to get creative about how I'm describing or expressing things to help them better understand
[13:49] Chip Althouse: yes, and that's a communications issue
[13:49] Chraeloos Resident: so imagination would help me communicate more clearly with them
[13:49] Korel Laloix: An help you understand.
[13:50] Chraeloos Resident: right Korel, it works both ways

[13:50] Chip Althouse: like, draw a circle instead of repeating the word over and over
[13:50] Chip Althouse: I suppose
[13:50] Chraeloos Resident: right, or forming a circle with your hands, or pointing to one if there is one nearby
[13:51] Chraeloos Resident: so is imagination another way to communicate, I wonder
[13:51] Chraeloos Resident: I guess I'm using imagination and creativity as the same thing here, is that wrong?
[13:52] Chip Althouse: people used their imaginations to create words
[13:52] Chraeloos Resident: Yeah, look at the internet "lol," "brb," "ttyl."
[13:52] Chraeloos Resident: whole sentences in just a few letters
[13:52] Chip Althouse laughs
[13:52] Chraeloos Resident: crazy
[13:52] Chraeloos Resident: lol

[13:53] Chip Althouse: In rl I am a creative director in an ad agency -- so i try to find imaginative (creative) ways to say things
[13:53] Chip Althouse: so I know what you you mean
[13:53] Chraeloos Resident: oh, neat
[13:53] Chraeloos Resident: good for you
[13:53] Chraeloos Resident: do you like that job?
[13:53] Chip Althouse: totally love it :)
[13:54] Chraeloos Resident: thats awesome :)

[13:55] Chip Althouse: imagination is used to stand out in a crowd in my business -- but in its best sense, it's used to come up with great ideas for the world
[13:55] Chraeloos Resident nods
[13:55] Korel Laloix: There are very personal ways that creativity is nice as well.
[13:56] Chraeloos Resident: and in order to communicate with the world, who speaks so many different languages, we must use something non-linguistic, for most things
[13:56] Chraeloos Resident: Korel, very true
[13:56] Chraeloos Resident: Some very, very personal
[13:56] Chip Althouse: maybe that's why so many contemporary signs use icons
[13:56] Chraeloos Resident smiles
[13:56] Chraeloos Resident: Chip, good point - unfortunately for most drivers they don't know what they all mean anyway, lol
[13:57] Chip Althouse: hard to design a great icon lol

[13:57] Chraeloos Resident: I think globalization has a lot to do with the emergence of icons
[13:57] Chraeloos Resident: very true
[13:57] Chip Althouse: absolutely
[13:57] Chip Althouse: bathroom doors, for example
[13:57] Chraeloos Resident: but even across cultures a smile means something different, and a handshake can be offensive

[13:58] Chip Althouse: is there any one visual that applies to all cultures?
[13:58] Chraeloos Resident: a stop sign?
[13:58] Chraeloos Resident: uh, I'm not sure
[13:59] Chraeloos Resident: Hi Catrina :)
[13:59] Chip Althouse: but an open hand in Greece signifies a vulgariyty
[13:59] Chip Althouse: Hello, Catrina
[13:59] Catrinamonblue Resident: hello :)
[13:59] Chraeloos Resident: right, and touching something with your right (?) hand in Bali is offensive, always use your left, I think thats how it goes anyway
[13:59] druth Vlodovic: hey guys
[13:59] Chraeloos Resident: HI Druth, hows it going?
[13:59] Chip Althouse admires Druth's hat
[13:59] Korel Laloix: Strange how that non verbal parts of language mean so much as well.
[14:00] Chraeloos Resident: OH yeah Korel, more than we know I think. And a lot of non-verbal activity happens unconsciously
[14:00] Chip Althouse: originally, letterforms were visual icons
[14:00] Chip Althouse: M= uppr lip
[14:00] Chraeloos Resident: hieroglyphs?
[14:00] Chip Althouse: S= snake
[14:00] Chraeloos Resident: oh, I see
[14:01] Chraeloos Resident: thats interesting, I didn't know that
[14:01] Chip Althouse: that's how we got letters
[14:01] Chraeloos Resident: that makes sense

[14:01] Chip Althouse: we went from visual to language
[14:01] Chip Althouse: now we're back to visual icons lol
[14:01] Chraeloos Resident: lol, yeah, true

[14:02] druth Vlodovic: since we were trying to communicate visually it only made sense to use what we already had visually
[14:03] Chraeloos Resident nods at Druth
[14:03] Chip Althouse: oops, rl
[14:03] druth Vlodovic: maybe originally they didn't have the idea of tieing them to sounds
[14:04] Chraeloos Resident: take care Chip!
[14:04] druth Vlodovic: ah,have fun with it chip
[14:04] Chip Althouse: thanks, bye folks
[14:04] Chraeloos Resident: druth, thats a good point, was it intentional?

[14:05] druth Vlodovic: if you look at Egyptian it is interesting (not that I have studied it per-se) but their different types of language has a continuous history to it
[14:05] druth Vlodovic: so you can see it develop
[14:05] Chraeloos Resident: oh I bet, I would love to study Egyptian. How long was it around for?
[14:06] Chraeloos Resident: Did Egyptian evolve out of Cuneiform?

[14:06] druth Vlodovic: oops, Don’t use your left hand to touch or give. This precaution has to do with the left hand being used primarily for hygienic purposes. Balinese traditionally don’t use toilet paper, using water to wash up instead; the left hand “does the business” of washing up the nether regions.
[14:07] druth Vlodovic: this is true for many arabic cultures as well
[14:07] druth Vlodovic: details details :)
[14:07] Chraeloos Resident: Ah, I had it backwards, thank you for fixing that!
[14:08] druth Vlodovic: in the west shaking the left is more polite since handshaking the right was originally for a weapons check
[14:08] druth Vlodovic: so history has a lot to do with it
[14:08] Chraeloos Resident nods

[14:09] Chraeloos Resident: it makes sense, but its funny how we don't usually know the history of our own actions anymore
[14:09] druth Vlodovic: "that's just the way it is" :)
[14:09] Chraeloos Resident: haha, true
[14:09] Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

[14:10] Chraeloos Resident: Well, I best be off, thank you for your time and input everyone :) Take good care, and thanks for hosting Korel!
[14:10] druth Vlodovic: have fun Char
[14:10] Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Chaeloos have a good evening/day
[14:11] Korel Laloix: Sorry.. was in and out a bit.
[14:11] druth Vlodovic: got that :)
[14:11] Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
[14:11] Korel Laloix: Darn RL.
[14:11] druth Vlodovic: ??
[14:12] druth Vlodovic: well,we can't complain too much, RL will shortly be providing me with a roast to eat
[14:12] druth Vlodovic: experimenting with my pressure cooker :)
[14:13] Catrinamonblue Resident: smells yummy :)
[14:18] druth Vlodovic: stomach grumbling Druth sneaks off to stalk supper
[14:18] Catrinamonblue Resident: Catrina follows :)
[14:18] druth Vlodovic: have fun with the RL Korel :)
[14:18] Catrinamonblue Resident: See you later Korel
[14:19] Korel Laloix: Ciao