2012.12.16 13:00 - Language as Sculptor of the Imagination

The guardian for this session was Bruce Mowbray, subbing for Aphrodite.

 

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Heya, Kori!

Korel Laloix: Bozho

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Someone gave me a different snowball thrower.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It makes a whistling noise.

Korel Laloix: Lovely.. I am sooooooo happy for you..

Korel Laloix: No ... really.. I am..

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yeah, I can just imagine you are!

Korel Laloix: How does it feel to have such a low entertainment threshold?

Korel Laloix: It really does not take much to entertain you folks does it?.. grins

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): This is right underneath the entertainment I derive from knitting scarves.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I'm easily entertained, you see.

Korel Laloix: I did not notice.. no.. never.

Korel Laloix: Seems to be an aspect of the whole xy chromosome thing.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): If I were a "real" man, I'd get a blast out of guns, football, and booze. . . but I don't. . . so, knitting and snowball throwing suffice.  I regard myself as fortunate.

Korel Laloix: Are they going to put up a second floor in the dome?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Don't know...

Korel Laloix: I like guns.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Did someone tell you a second floor was going in?

Korel Laloix: Went to a gun show with Reeba's dad a while back... that was such an experience.

Korel Laloix: No.. just out of room on the first floor.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have not been over there to check out the exhibits in a couple of days.

Korel Laloix: Will just put up my thing in my area.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Oh darn! Maybe Stormy will put up a second floor just for you.

Korel Laloix: I hope not.

Korel Laloix: Just want a place.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): He did that last time for Boxy, you know.

Korel Laloix: But if it is any trouble at all... then I can go.

Korel Laloix: Oh.. yes.. remember that.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have claimed this session for Aph. . . Otherwise I'd go over there now and check out the new exhibits.

Korel Laloix: It is full.

Korel Laloix: Some fun things.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmm. That's good. I was a bit worried on Friday that there might be only three of us with exhibits.

Korel Laloix: I have such a hard time in being creative like this.

Korel Laloix: I had to fix mine though.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, Sun is going to be holding a prim workshop on Wednesdays at 11 a.m.

Korel Laloix: Managed to get one panel fixed before I had to get back to RL.

Korel Laloix: But think I have it right now.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes. I built mine at my plot, then did a "take" on each section of it, then re-placed it in the Dome.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I get self-conscious if folks are watching me when I build.

Korel Laloix: whispers: Interesting... why is that?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Because I'm no good at building!

Korel Laloix: Not sure why that was whispered.

Korel Laloix: Yes you are..

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): heh heh...

Korel Laloix: You are very good.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): May I ask you a question that is related to the topic for this week?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "The effect of language on imagination."

Korel Laloix: You can ask me anything.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "Imagination" is a very big topic in itself. . .

Korel Laloix: I may not answer though.. smiles

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but, OK. Do you "think" in your First American language or do you think in English?

Korel Laloix: Depends... now mostly in English.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): especially, do you think of the past . . . or of the future . . . kk, mostly in English....

Korel Laloix: But if I am around my aunts or mom or from other people from the tribe, it changes.

Korel Laloix: I dream in Tsalagi and Bode sometimes.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, and if the language itself changes, then I am thinking that the "quality" and perhaps the content of those thoughts might also change.

Korel Laloix: When I get really drunk or tired it starts to slip in as well.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I am guessing that there are thoughts that simply cannot be expressed in English, for example.

Korel Laloix: Yes, that is for sure.

Korel Laloix: Or at least I have a hard time expressing.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): kk. Then, your EXPERIENCE would also be different, right?

Korel Laloix: Not sure what you mean.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I'm actually trying to push a point:

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): that the nature of our experience is to some degree determined by language.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): . . . and since you speak two different languages (at least), then you would be better qualified to talk about this than I am.

Korel Laloix: Without a doubt.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Your experiences when thinking in Tsalagi and Bode would be different from when you're thinking in English.

 

BELL

 

Korel Laloix: I think the biggest difference is that most FA languages are verb-centric.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Heya, Zon!

Korel Laloix: Osiyou

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Verb-centric . . . . especially with action verbs, then?

Zon Kwan: hey hey

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Heya, Zon and Eliza.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hello you three :)

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): came to see if log needed claiming :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): kk, in your FA languages, which are verb-centric, do you know how many tenses you have?

Zon Kwan: nice horns Eliza and Brucie

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Nope, I have it, Eliza.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thanks, Bruce!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): subbing for Aph.

Korel Laloix: Not really that deep into the grammar.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): np, my pleasure. . . . right up there with snowball throwing and knitting scarves!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, in English there are six verb tenses....

Korel Laloix: But there are past present and future.

Zon Kwan: do we have a topic ?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but other languages have more --- like progressive tenses....

Korel Laloix: With perfect tenses.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): oh, have you been knitting in Luci's nebula?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): No, but we are talking about language and its effect on thought....

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): especially on the imagination...

Zon Kwan: can it effect imagination too ?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I have been drilling poor Kori, here, about First American languages.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, Zon, that's what we're exploring now.

Korel Laloix: Habitual.

Zon Kwan: it does to thinking

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I say that language can have a profound effect upon imagination.

Korel Laloix: And I think imperfect.

Bruce  listens.

Zon Kwan: but imagination is with pictures ?

Korel Laloix: And there is a sort of ancient past tense as well.

Korel Laloix: At least in Tsalagi.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Some say that we cannot imagine what we cannot verbalize . . .

Bruce listens ......

Zon Kwan: don't think so

Korel Laloix: Not sure about that.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ancient past tense... fascinating... like deep subconscious :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, please say more about that, Kori, if you wish.

Korel Laloix: There was a book that I sort of read about the government warping the language so people could not think in a way to fight.

Korel Laloix: I just remember the adjective "double plus ungood"

Korel Laloix: Not sure what that was from though.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hm

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have not heard that one, Kori, but I do know that when an ancient dialect dies out, certain aspects of the culture are un-recoverable.

Eliza nods

Korel Laloix: looking it up.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): often multilingual friends will say in a conversation "there isn't a word for this in English but..."

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I think that "imagination" is an enormous topic all by itself. . . but when coupled with language, even more so.

Bruce listens...

Zon Kwan: hi tanja

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Shri Nirvana :)

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): hii Zon

Korel Laloix: OH.. from the book 1984.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Oh, sorry, Tanja :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Welcome, Shri!

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): hii everyone

Tanja Chauveau: hii todos

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): how are you

Tanja Chauveau: "¿cómo está","frase","¿Cómo está","¿Cómo está usted","¿Qué tal"

Korel Laloix: Well, the US has genocided a few First American cultures... and languages.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): y hola Nizar :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Tanja . . . May I ask your permission to post whatever you might say in chat into our on-line wiki?

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): Nizar is smiling at you

Eliza smiles back

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): sure

Korel Laloix: We are down to 6 native Bode' speakers now.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thank you!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have just given you a notecard about Play as Being.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and welcome you to the pavilion!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ONLY SIX - -- ? OMG.

Bruce ponders what else dies along with a language when it dies.

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): thank you very much, Bruce.

Zon Kwan: one way of looking the world

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): i was reading this notecard

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My pleasure, tanja!

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what makes one language more romantic than another?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, and if you have any questions, please feel free to ask any of us, tanja.

Zon Kwan: environment

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): is it simply sound? each language has its own music

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmm. . . "more romantic"?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Like lots of ahhhh sounds?

Zon Kwan: lots of sun

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)

Korel Laloix: They are getting old.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): like "I think you are maaaaaavelous!"

Korel Laloix: WE are doing a good job of preserving now though.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): And you are one of the six, Kori?

Korel Laloix: Oh heck no.

 

BELL

 

Eliza waves to Zon

Zon Kwan: waves

Korel Laloix: I can understand it in some ways... but can't speak the whole of the language.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so people are keeping recordings now?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But you do speak Bode to some extent... ? (You just answered my question, sorry.)

Korel Laloix: I speak my mom and Aunt's representation of the language.

Korel Laloix: Mixed with Spanish Tsalagi and English and OJibwee

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): All right, then, does your knowledge and use of these languages affect your imagination in some way. . . ?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): How you fantasize about things?

Korel Laloix: I think so.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): How you imagine "the past" to have been?

Korel Laloix: Makes you think in different ways.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmm. That fascinates me.

Korel Laloix: Well.. in a lot of FA languages, verbs are central.. so you do not have a half cup... you have a cup that exists in half.

Korel Laloix: So at least, it makes you look at things differently.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and that seems to me to be a very significant difference.

Korel Laloix: It can be.

Eliza nods.. different worlds really

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Emphasizing the actor and the action, rather than explanatory or even descriptive modifiers.

Korel Laloix: And we do not have real genders of nouns either.

Korel Laloix: Things are either animate/spiritual or inanimate.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmm.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): romantic languages are considered to be French, Italian, Spanish... all very fluid I guess.. perhaps with more frivolous descriptiveness than say, German... wonder where these languages would place

Korel Laloix: No idea on that..

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Heya, San!

s a n (santoshima): greetings :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Heya, san! We've been chatting about languages and their effect upon imagination and upon thought in general.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi San

s a n (santoshima): 16 December 2012~ty

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Kori has been talking a bit about First American languages that she's familiar with.

Bruce ponders the "Romance" languages...

s a n (santoshima): please continue ~

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Those derived from Latin....

Korel Laloix: Isn't Portuguese a romance language as well?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Imagination . . . . like vision, might be limited by the limitations of the different languages... or enhanced by the breadth and depth of different languages.

Korel Laloix: I think maybe 'shaped' is the word, not 'limited.'

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Portuguese is quite similar to French and Spanish... so much so that friends who speak those languages can wing it in Portuguese quite well from my experience

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): shaped, nice

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I think that Portuguese is considered a dialect of Spanish. . . . so, in a sense it is also a Romance language.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): contoured...

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): at the very least in being able to connect with a person you wouldn't otherwise, one's universe is considerably enlarged

Korel Laloix: Ooo.. the one Brazilina girl In know would sooo hurt you if you said their language was part of Spanish...

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Homer is thought to have been blind -- mostly because of the ways his poetry misuses known colors.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I really know nothing about Portuguese, Kori. Sorry.

Korel Laloix: lol

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I only know that Portuguese and Spanish are very similar.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and geographically rooted in the same cultures.

Korel Laloix: Not really an idea.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): excuse me... really interesting but I need to go

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye for now, Eliza!

Korel Laloix: take care.

stevenaia Michinaga: bye Eliza

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thanks for joining us.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Oh nice the way your dress moves Tanja

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): im going to take a walk

Shri Nirvana (tanja.chauveau): have a nice evening

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe a train ride? :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): kk. Bye for now, Shri. Do come back when you can!

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bfn

s a n (santoshima): bye shri ~ bye eliza

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, the train ride is delightful. Be sure to get a set of the earphones!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): about to "drop" now, but I am thinking about language and dreaming.....

 

BELL

 

 

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I'm thinking that dreams are partly imaginary....

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and that maybe one reason I can't recall my dreams very well is that I have not put those imaginings into words.

Korel Laloix: You have me thinking.

Korel Laloix: I only remember maybe five dreams in my life, and all were in English.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): That's amazing, Kori.

Korel Laloix: Amazing?

Korel Laloix: Why?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): After my father died (when I was 19), I had the same persistent nightmare for nine years.... until I moved here to the farm in Ohio....

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, two reasons: one, that you can only recall five dreams,

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and (2) that they were all in English.

Korel Laloix: Had to think about the English bit though.. an interesting revelation.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I guess that I was thinking maybe your First American languages would have a deeper impact on the imagination - and therefore more impact on dreams, and therefore also more memorable.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but only memorable in those original languages....

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not in English.

Korel Laloix: Well.. all of those dreams are nightmares.

Korel Laloix: So that might have something to do with it.

Korel Laloix: But there are things I think in Tsalai or Bode though sometimes.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes. and that raises some fascinating questions.... also.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): questions about experience itself.

Korel Laloix: If you can figure out my brain, please please please tell me.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): OH! I am surely NOT trying to figure out your brain, or anyone else's.... just exploring some general ideas about language and its effects on imagination, dreams, and memory.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I'm guessing that FMRI's will be telling more about this stuff soon.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): about the impact of certain words on parts of the brain.

Korel Laloix: There are certain words that are triggers though.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Oh yes.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): There are "reasons" that some words are "sacred," for example, and others are considered "profane."

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): why some words are forbidden in certain contexts.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): This, of course, alters our experience of those contexts.

s a n (santoshima): { maybe all words are sacred }

Korel Laloix: Never understood the idea of profanity as in specific words.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmm. . . . perhaps they are, San. . .

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel that we make a word "profane" through our usage of it.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For example, the "dirtiest" word that my mother ever uttered was the word "MEN!" -- and it could curl the paint on the walls when she said it.

s a n (santoshima): oh

Korel Laloix: My mom has an incredible vocabulary of vulgarity in four languages....

Korel Laloix: Most was directed at me one time or another.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Of course, my mother had been raised by Catholic nuns in the mid-1920's....

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I can understand that, Kori.... or at least, I can imagine that I understand that.

s a n (santoshima): mother of language

Korel Laloix: brb

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My question -- ongoing -- is how those same words now shape your experience.... (and my own).

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): kk.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I need to be gone too.

s a n (santoshima): ok

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bert's meditation session is about to begin.

s a n (santoshima): ty ~

s a n (santoshima): peace

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thank you all!

--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: how long have you been hearing you native language, Korel?
Korel Laloix: Back
stevenaia Michinaga: wb
Korel Laloix: I grew up speaking Tsalagi and BOde' in the house.
Korel Laloix: Started English in kindergarten really.
stevenaia Michinaga: awww, ok
stevenaia Michinaga: I asked because of your comment abut dreamng in English
Korel Laloix: I had never thought about it until Bruce asked though.
stevenaia Michinaga: I usually have images and stories in dreams, not language or conversations, per se
Korel Laloix: Just thinking of the languages.
Korel Laloix: It is a strange way to wrap things.
stevenaia Michinaga: wrap things?
Korel Laloix: Wrap in language vs content.
stevenaia Michinaga: aww
Korel Laloix: I do know one thing though...
stevenaia Michinaga: yes?
Korel Laloix: I am happy to have my ESL time for my tests.. smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: ESL?
Korel Laloix: So I can at least take tests in Enlgish .
Korel Laloix: English as Second Langauge.
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: well I have found this to be a very literate group, spelling aside
Korel Laloix: And typing...

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: Some are very smart or educated or both.
stevenaia Michinaga: common thread seems to be curiosity
Korel Laloix: In some ways.
stevenaia Michinaga: in ideas, each other's ideas, in listening
Korel Laloix: But I have learned so much here.
Korel Laloix: Not just language.
stevenaia Michinaga: so have I, so many things I understand so much better ow
stevenaia Michinaga: now
Korel Laloix: That is for sure...
Korel Laloix: Some folks I never eraly undersould though.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, develops a greater sence of patience with yourself
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting, watching a tv show about Hopi images and mythology
Korel Laloix: Which one?
stevenaia Michinaga: don't laugh, Ancient Aliens
stevenaia Michinaga: but they go to interesting places, I just ignore the alien stuff
Korel Laloix: Can be fun.. smiles
Korel Laloix: Koyannisqatsi is a great film.. and Hopi based.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, what they don't understand... well aliens must have done it
stevenaia Michinaga: I think I've seen it a while ago
Korel Laloix: There are so many silly ideas about stuff.
stevenaia Michinaga: yup
Korel Laloix: Just like a lot of other things for sure.
Korel Laloix: brb
Korel Laloix: I do find language so interesting.
Korel Laloix: How much our prejudices are based on it.
Korel Laloix: How somehitng can't realy be said in some languages.
Korel Laloix: The history in some langauges.

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: I'm going to take a look at the Art Dome, what to join me?
stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon