2012.09.30 19:00 - Caravanserai

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Calvino Rabeni: Hello Vector
Calvino Rabeni: It's been a long time, how have you been?
Vector Marksman: very well. I have not been in SL in 6 months!
Vector Marksman: it is like another world
Calvino Rabeni: It is a kind of world
Vector Marksman: changes all the time
Calvino Rabeni: oh, I haven't noticed too many changes
Calvino Rabeni: but I don't explore too much
Calvino Rabeni: staying in my usual haunts here
Vector Marksman: well, I just had to download a new viewer so maybe that is my impression
Vector Marksman: rather than anything substantive
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Calvino Rabeni: yes I needed to do the same
Vector Marksman: aha - how is Pa B?
Calvino Rabeni: It's still active, though in different ways
Calvino Rabeni: there are some new group members
Calvino Rabeni: Pema has moved a bit more into the background
Calvino Rabeni: there are always some new initiatives though
Calvino Rabeni: a combined SL / RL retreat is coming up
Vector Marksman: the latter interests me - how SL and RL interact
Calvino Rabeni: ah yes :)
Vector Marksman: Where is the retreat
Calvino Rabeni: I think there are a few challenges or basic things that need to be kept in mind about that
Calvino Rabeni: the upcoming retreat?
Vector Marksman: yes, like what
Calvino Rabeni: It's "place" is a location here in SL, in a retreat location, plus the attendees will be at their own residences, and encourages to do something to make space there for the retreat experience
Calvino Rabeni: so ... unfortunately perhaps, no physical co-location
Vector Marksman: very interesting
Vector Marksman: I have done the same via telephone conferencing
Vector Marksman: But we only knew each other in RL
Vector Marksman: I can see the value of this
Vector Marksman: yes
Vector Marksman: that is the site
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Calvino Rabeni: The experiments are at least in my opinion, one can't expect an organic unity, but need to look for small things that can be made to work better
Calvino Rabeni: I guess, a kind of incrementalism
Calvino Rabeni: but that's not a consensus, just my idea
Calvino Rabeni: one of the issues is the unity needs to be constructed, rather than assumed, so it seems there's some will involved
Vector Marksman: Do you mean experiments offerred in PaB
Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking about the SL/RL hybrid idea
Vector Marksman: yes
--BELL--

Vector Marksman: Good to experiment... that is the spirit I like best about PaB
Vector Marksman: the little I have been here
Calvino Rabeni: nods ...
Calvino Rabeni: also, learning from experiments :)
Vector Marksman: yes, "there is no success like failure and failur is no success at all" Bob Dylan
Vector Marksman: just learing
Vector Marksman: learning
Calvino Rabeni: by the way, do you recall, the log here gets posted online ... is that ok.. and is a reference to your site okay (wanted?) .. it's up to me as session editor
Vector Marksman: sure, all is ok with me
Calvino Rabeni: just learning ... yes, intelligent learning and remembering
Calvino Rabeni: and I suppose forgetting is part of remembering
Vector Marksman: that is an interesting subject - unlearning
Vector Marksman: maybe that is not the same as forgetting and maybe it is
Calvino Rabeni: yes, that makes sense both ways
Calvino Rabeni: in the retreat description, there's a statement to the effect that there will be a day of silence
Vector Marksman: yes, silence is for me a key
Calvino Rabeni: and that is additionally defined to mean "no email, no web as well as talking"
Calvino Rabeni: nods about silence, \
Vector Marksman: how about inner silence... hard to mandate
Vector Marksman: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: yes, though it's simple, it's hard to communicate about, less mandate
Calvino Rabeni: (?)
Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, what I wondered about that specification "no web, no email" was, in what way it is necessary to state
Vector Marksman: How can you be in SL if not on the internet
Calvino Rabeni: hehe I think the idea might be counter-intuitive, but the idea would be to disconnect from the internet during part of the real time of the session
Vector Marksman: ok - I see
Calvino Rabeni: it's funny, there are a lot of "online" meditations
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes but not often, it includes going away from the influence of the computer and its technology and associated habits
Calvino Rabeni: I think that would be good to do more often
Calvino Rabeni: but more often the connection is kept open
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps without much account for its effects
Vector Marksman: You are exploring a whole new dimension of meditation this way
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Vector Marksman: Maybe the future will be even more tied in to computer connection than now
Calvino Rabeni: I think so ..
Vector Marksman: I am old enough to be ambivalent
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Reminds me of a quote .. "if you're not confused, you haven't been paying attention" (or something like that)
Vector Marksman: very good
Calvino Rabeni: I think the same can be said for ambivalence
Calvino Rabeni: and I like to think it's not age-dependent
Vector Marksman: True - but the developments are rapid and there is an age divide I think
Vector Marksman: Maybe that is just one of many divides though
Calvino Rabeni: There's a certain minimum technical competency needed to get into the medium
Calvino Rabeni: Some phones and cars are now complex enough to be on the wrong side of the divide for parts of the population
Calvino Rabeni: but when it comes to something like a meditation group
Calvino Rabeni: I'd hope simplicity would be the order of the day
Vector Marksman: Yes, but getting into SL is not as simple for most people as getting into a website.
Calvino Rabeni: Second Life has long been recognized as too complex for mass adaptation ... it never became the way "everyone" used computers
Calvino Rabeni: yes I agree
Calvino Rabeni: maybe the "kinect" like motion interfaces and voice recognition will change that
Calvino Rabeni: so there's no need to memorize complex controls, icons, menus, modes, pointers and all that complexity
Vector Marksman: yes, the thrust has been to make it simpler and less complex to use all the technologies
Vector Marksman: that in the past were only possilbe for a select few
Calvino Rabeni: another design perspective is, given a group that already has competency with a system, how to use it as well as possible for a purpose like a meditation group or retreat
Calvino Rabeni: or a community meeting
Vector Marksman: yes, I would like to participate more in this endeavor
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Vector Marksman: meeting you here by chance does inspire me to try and come more often
Vector Marksman: to see and learn
Calvino Rabeni: :) hoping you find the most helpful / useful situations when you do come
Calvino Rabeni: actually, contributing to the learning
Vector Marksman: yes, I think the interaction is what makes it worthwhile
Vector Marksman: otherwise I could be watching TV
Calvino Rabeni: or reading a book, or sitting by the lake
Calvino Rabeni: it's interesting
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: people would go to some lengths to design an environment within second life with good impressions and aesthetics
Calvino Rabeni: to support an activity or experience here
Calvino Rabeni: for instance the image of a traditional meditation place, with its objects
Calvino Rabeni: but of course it's embedded in the frame of the technical system
Calvino Rabeni: and that's embedded in the frame of a person's place of using the technical system ... home or office or whatever
Calvino Rabeni: and the arrangements don't seem to include those larger frames
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps theres a presumption that they aren't relevant
Calvino Rabeni: and .. it's too much to expect, it raises the bar
Calvino Rabeni: when one goes to a RL meditation temple, the monks hopefully have cleaned up the surrounding land and area
Calvino Rabeni: but in the SL retreat, one doesn't have someone to do the same for one's house :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Paradise :)
Calvino Rabeni: So it raises the bar, of effort needed
Calvino Rabeni: as there's no physical commons
Paradise Tennant: hiy a cal vector
Vector Marksman: But for the retreat to be more meaningful, cleaning up one's house would be important
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Vector Marksman: I am sorry,,, but I must leave. It was very nice seeing you again. :-)
Calvino Rabeni: and ones computer surface and technical surround
Paradise Tennant: nite nite vector
Calvino Rabeni: Very glad you came by, Vector
Paradise Tennant: was just out listening to a concert by Beth Orton :))
Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w0-W-llAWg
Paradise Tennant: she was very good :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm missing something, the reason for the cake here
Paradise Tennant: not sure ?
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe I haven't been reading my email
Paradise Tennant: aph put it there
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the link ... I can see it later, but unfortunately I've got a tech problem, if the computer runs the SL viewer as well as the browser, it gets to the heat limit where it crashes .. makes me nervous :)
Paradise Tennant: no worries .. how are you :))
Paradise Tennant: had just a fabulous dinner too at a little italian restaurant where the clocks refuse to work... the one above the bar actually ran backwards and then stopped after 3 days )) totallly charming :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm well .. had a strange vertigo but it's passed
Paradise Tennant: http://www.kalendar.com/pdfs/KAL_DinnerMenu2012-WEB.pdf
Paradise Tennant: you are dehydrated
Calvino Rabeni: Ran backwards? wow, that seems exceptional
Paradise Tennant: I get that sometimes ..there are great llittle pills for it ..
Paradise Tennant: but essentially you are need to drink a litre of water ..when your inner ears dry out they stop working
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe so .. I'd attributed it to an unexpected combination of things
Paradise Tennant: feels like your tumbling through space
Calvino Rabeni: I'd been climbing a ladder leaning on a pear tree, as it was getting dark, and then climbing down, it started twisting precariously
Calvino Rabeni: then I didn't get light to re-establish the feeling of space around me, so when I went to sit at the computer, looking into SL, I had no sense of ground
Calvino Rabeni: yes, that was the feeling, like the ground were unstable and turning
Calvino Rabeni: but luckily it passed after focusing on the SL world space a while
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: yes sometimes it is like the world is tv set where there is no vertical button it is just flipping around
Paradise Tennant: drink a couple of big glasses of water before you go to bed
Paradise Tennant: they are having a wonderful time in Venice but aph got pickpocketed
Calvino Rabeni: though there's a kind of leaning forward, SL 's world doesn't create a complete surround
Calvino Rabeni: I got a nice box of plums and pears
Paradise Tennant: smiles then it was worth it
Calvino Rabeni: oh, that's bad .. about the pickpocket .. seems sort of sterootypical
Calvino Rabeni: hoping the passport wasn't lost
Calvino Rabeni: Your recipe by the way seems like a good one for lucid dreaming :)
Paradise Tennant: no just credit cards and about 50 euros so awkward but not terrible
Paradise Tennant: my recipe ?
Calvino Rabeni: two glasses of water before bed
Calvino Rabeni: raises awareness during sleep
Calvino Rabeni: nods... sometimes I carry a dummy wallet with some fake credit cards and a little currency
Paradise Tennant: inside zip pockets in a jacket that is not an easy material to cut through works wonders too
Paradise Tennant: sometimes they will just cut open your pockets
Paradise Tennant: are you able to lucid dream cal
Calvino Rabeni: there are bags designed for that, cut-resistant
Calvino Rabeni: um, well I sometimes dream that way naturally but haven't worked at it like some people do to be able to do it intentionally
Paradise Tennant: so you can give your self a nice little dream vacation ? "_
Calvino Rabeni: it would sort of concern me to completely connect those two worlds in such a way
Calvino Rabeni: hehe .. yes, like for instance, if I were on a real vacation I think I'd not be checking my email every 20 minutes :)
Calvino Rabeni: dreams as vacation ?
Calvino Rabeni: nods sort of, they feel that way actually
Paradise Tennant: well sometimes before I go to bed I give myself the thought of wanting to have a beautiful experience in a beautiful place
Paradise Tennant: a mini break :)
Calvino Rabeni: nods .. I do things like that sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: such as, the idea of opening up a question or issue
Calvino Rabeni: and if it's disturbing, I'll still take that as a success
Paradise Tennant: what kind of questions ?
Calvino Rabeni: in a way, the vacation is from ordinary mind habits, I suppose ..
Calvino Rabeni: and I might hope to go outside the space defined by .. how to say it .. well I don't have a name for it but an equivalent description might be, the "three somethings" of attachment, aversion, indifference
Paradise Tennant: oneness would be my word
Calvino Rabeni: I would recognize it as a state in which there were a dynamic interplay between sameness and otherness
Paradise Tennant: what does that feel like in a dream?
Calvino Rabeni: making an analogy (not literally) to being "bi" .. hetero + homo .. but with respect to experience not sexuality - see link below for a source of that idea - the possibility of orienting to and embracing both difference and sameness
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: whisper-listens: feel like in a dream?
Calvino Rabeni: btw that last idea, I have to give mention to someone's blog
Calvino Rabeni: (trying to be a good social-media citizen here)
Calvino Rabeni: ... dream
Calvino Rabeni: (closes eyes)
Calvino Rabeni: Dreams feel a bit soft, like a world made of blankets, woven by mind
Calvino Rabeni: like when young, playing with the furniture and sheets, making play houses
Calvino Rabeni: (that's the dream answer to the question)
Paradise Tennant: always feel like I have gone away from my body when I dream like there is just this little string to pull me back
Calvino Rabeni: oh interesting
Paradise Tennant: sometimes it feels like I am in someone else's body .. seeing things .. doing things but with different hands .. a different body when I look down
Calvino Rabeni: reminds me a bit of the idea of being a medical empath
Calvino Rabeni: when I dream it feels like going for a journey within my larger body
Calvino Rabeni: like every surface is the wall of a cell that has a me side and an other side
Calvino Rabeni: (web site for earlier idea .. http://joe-perez.com/blog/2012/09/love-poem-no-1-from-the-english-kabbalah/)
Paradise Tennant: wow
Paradise Tennant: that was lovely
Paradise Tennant: the poem
Calvino Rabeni: It's new to me .. I know the man but don't keep up with the blog
Calvino Rabeni: sort of .. knowing the path someone is on
Calvino Rabeni: then getting their travel postcard
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: kind of like being in a group convoy isn't it .. all those we are connected to are moving along
Calvino Rabeni: It's part of a large narrative arc, expressed poetically but arising from a source that was cognized as a unity
Calvino Rabeni: group convoy, yes
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: wishing my clock would go backward but it is resolutely winding up to midnight here :))
Paradise Tennant: I should say thank you and good night :))
Calvino Rabeni: That brings to mind the David Whyte poem, but with "changes"
Paradise Tennant: |?
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, glad to see you here, I was going to leave on the bell and do something with the plums
Calvino Rabeni: oh let me see ...
Calvino Rabeni:http://www.davidwhyte.com/english_everything.html