The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
--BELL--
Zen Arado: ..
Zen Arado: The effect of language on imagination
Zen Arado: Hi Liza :)
Liza Deischer: hey Zen :)
Zen Arado: how are you?
Liza Deischer: I'm fine ... you do know I'm Darren don'tyou?
Zen Arado: yes :)
Liza Deischer: okay :)
Liza Deischer: this is your slot?
Zen Arado: or which are you hmm
Zen Arado: yes
Liza Deischer: what doyou mean?
Zen Arado: not a bog crowd today :)
Zen Arado: big
Zen Arado: well I'm not sure who you are now :)
Zen Arado: if you know what I mean
Zen Arado: are you different as Liza?
Liza Deischer: hmmm, Liza hasn't been onine for quite a while .... I need to get used to her again
Zen Arado: I remember I came to OF as a female one week and you told me you didn't feeel Zen was there :)
Liza Deischer [Ish] nods
Zen Arado: have to go to Kira
Liza Deischer: of course it's teh same typist, but to me Liza feels different then Darren and sje felt different then you
Zen Arado: restart here
Liza Deischer: ok

Restart so went to Kira:

Liza Deischer: you can scate very well :)
Zen (zen.arado): even on grass ;)
Liza Deischer: /me [Ishra] grins
Zen (zen.arado): people IM'ing me
Zen (zen.arado): why do they do that when I go to meetings
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps it's because I only go to meetings :)
Liza Deischer: hahaha
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Sharon :)
Liza Deischer: that might be an answer
Liza Deischer: hey :)
Liza Deischer: hey Sophia
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): hi :)
Zen (zen.arado): Sharon is a good skater too :)
Liza Deischer: yep
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): I am! Its cracking me up
Liza Deischer: everyone is skating today
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): :)
Zen (zen.arado): it's digging up the floor here :)
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): Ill be more careful ;)
Zen (zen.arado): topic is : The effect of language on imagination
Zen (zen.arado): wonders if we have any imagination outside language
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): how language affects thoughts in general is a challanging question, let alone on imagination
Zen (zen.arado): or if we can even think without language
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): I'm a very visual thinker
Liza Deischer: sorry, rl for a bit
Zen (zen.arado): but what is visual?
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): I have to see it almost inaction form before it may seem possible
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): in actin (space)
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): sorry typos
Zen (zen.arado): it is only colored shapes without language
Zen (zen.arado): like an hour old baby
Zen (zen.arado): what does it see?
Zen (zen.arado): no names for anything
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): presumably it can not imagine yet
Zen (zen.arado): it has innate abilities though
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): Im not sure if thats a good example because a baby is physical need driven,
Zen (zen.arado): I don't feel like thinking today ;)
Liza Deischer: and we arent' need-driven?
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): nods
Zen (zen.arado): but that's something we project onto them?
Zen (zen.arado): we don't really know
Zen (zen.arado): it would just be a huge overwhelming bundle of sensations
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): my sister had a baby several weeks ago, I dont think her son is focusing on us yet, but surely responds
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): focusing visually I mean
Zen (zen.arado): they are programmes to recognise their mother?
Zen (zen.arado): mother's face
Zen (zen.arado): programmed to cry
Zen (zen.arado): if we don't like what is happeneing
Zen (zen.arado): guess we still do that ;)
Liza Deischer: sorry, something came in between, was waiting for it for a long time, then when I decided to come here it happened :)
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): I was about to say that
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): np Liza
Zen (zen.arado): np Liza
Zen (zen.arado): maybe we build up a cage from language
Zen (zen.arado): we interpret the world through it
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): Ive heard and read that, i've yet to note that experientially
Zen (zen.arado): and it then limits us
Liza Deischer: I do seem to think differently, in processes and feelings, not something I can translate into words, but needing to it might be that is adding something that makes it able to give 'from' to things
Liza Deischer: yes, it can work against us
Zen (zen.arado): you still have to express the feelings in language
Liza Deischer: yes, which only partly works
Zen (zen.arado): yes ..give things form
Zen (zen.arado): we have to label and formulate something in a word to be able to think about it or talk about it
Zen (zen.arado): then it becomes artificially solid
Zen (zen.arado): instead of just a handy label
Liza Deischer: yes, but because of it we can think out the kind of chair we are sitting on
Liza Deischer: and even concepts
Zen (zen.arado): and 'chair' is just a concept
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Liza Deischer: true
Zen (zen.arado): and we separate it from ewverything else
Zen (zen.arado): isolate it
Liza Deischer: well, because we can we cna create, but if we don't 'connect', it becomes all seperate things
Zen (zen.arado): a philosopher called Richard Rorty is interesting on thsi
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): oh?
Liza Deischer: and connecting is maybe something babies know more about
Liza Deischer: do tell Zen
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): smiles
Zen (zen.arado): he said that we think in concepts and metaphors but they lock us in that way of seeing the world
Zen (zen.arado): to have a new vision we need to discard the old language
Zen (zen.arado): invent new metaphors
Zen (zen.arado): Einstein said something similar
Zen (zen.arado): about using the thinking that got us into a mess is not adeqquate to get us out of the mess
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): nods
Liza Deischer: hmmm, I agree on teh first part, that makes sense, pondering on the second ... :)
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): Id like to see if there was an axperiemnt out there to show this
Zen (zen.arado): I can't remember the exact quote
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): agreeing
Liza Deischer: though Jung said we can't solve things on another level than where they appear, but if thinking messes up our world, we need to find the mechanism that makes our world
Zen (zen.arado): 'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.'
Liza Deischer: it starts to make sense to me yes
Zen (zen.arado): it's like the Catholic church refused to believ Copernicus when he said the earth goes round the sun
Liza Deischer: interesting thing though is that we can make our world bigger by thinking, it's not the thinking in itself, it's something different, and when that gets out of balance, thinking gets out of balance as well ... it might be that thinking can be used as a trigger to get 'whatever that is' out of balance
Zen (zen.arado): and refused to look in his telescope
Liza Deischer: but Copernicus is the thinker here
Zen (zen.arado): maybe it is the emotional investment in the thoughts
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): the emotions attached to the words
Zen (zen.arado): we have a solid picture of the world that we feel is right
Liza Deischer: emotionally we can only react on our environment and our own needs
Zen (zen.arado): so emotions and needs are the driverrs of behaviour and not thinking?
Liza Deischer: though to me feelings are different from emotions
Zen (zen.arado): we just use thinking to back up feelings?
Liza Deischer: basically I think so, using thinking to provide our needs
Zen (zen.arado): the thinking is used to vindicate them
Zen (zen.arado): in not always a logical way :)
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): the punch behind the words may partly by emotional attachment to certain phrases, but not all of them, I dont think
Liza Deischer: vindicate means.... ?
Liza Deischer: heh :)
Zen (zen.arado): verify?
Zen (zen.arado): make them seem right
Liza Deischer: okay, thanks
Zen (zen.arado): back feeling up with words
Zen (zen.arado): or tell ourselves stories basically
Zen (zen.arado): I see myself do this a lot lately
Liza Deischer: and make things sound right
Zen (zen.arado): all my stories of me and my life
Liza Deischer: "I'm not doing this for me ...."
Zen (zen.arado): everything is a story really
Zen (zen.arado): a story about a dream
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Zen (zen.arado): an everxchanging dream
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): :)
Liza Deischer: we like to dream, about being superman, about knowing it all, about buildings higher than most mountains
Zen (zen.arado): and people think SL is a dream
Liza Deischer: abotu achievements and making a name
Zen (zen.arado): they don't see that all the rest is too
Liza Deischer: well, they still need to wake up :)
Zen (zen.arado): like when I wake up in the morning after a dream?
Liza Deischer: you get in teh next dream
Zen (zen.arado): and we take it so seriously
Zen (zen.arado): that's the funny part
Zen (zen.arado): still reading the Tao of Pooh Sharon
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): :)
Zen (zen.arado): great book ;)
Liza Deischer: I don't know Zen, whne you are starving, need to leave your home for a war, get raped .... I think that is pretty much real .... that we might dream doesnt' make the suffering not real
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): its sweet, and says several concepts very simply
Zen (zen.arado): why is suffering real and having pleasure a dream?
Zen (zen.arado): just asking
Zen (zen.arado): I see what you mean though Liza
Liza Deischer: having pleasure is real as well, but it doesn't last
Zen (zen.arado): suffering is usually temporary too though
Liza Deischer: so we seek out the next thing to give us pleasure, in the end it makes us suffer
Zen (zen.arado): it's because we think we shouldn't suffer maybe
Zen (zen.arado): but if we look around pain is allaround everwhere
Zen (zen.arado): life is not always pleasant
Liza Deischer: I think you hit there something Zen
Zen (zen.arado): we can't even have pleasure without pain
Zen (zen.arado): need both polarities
Liza Deischer: ((I think those skates are a bit big :) ))
Zen (zen.arado): big feet ;)
Zen (zen.arado): oh your skates?
Liza Deischer: no great animation either
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): heheh
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
Liza Deischer: I do have this though
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): oh wow nice snowball :D
Zen (zen.arado): ouch
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): ~thank you~
Liza Deischer: that ws your head Zen :)
Zen (zen.arado): good shot :)
Liza Deischer: ((is going to sit down and pay attention again))
Zen (zen.arado): I can't find mouselook
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): me eoither! Ive been trying :D
Liza Deischer: two times esc, that role forward with you mouse, the wheel on top
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): cool
Liza Deischer: or maybe pressing M works
Liza Deischer: so I can hit you and you can't hit me ... great!
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): /me ducks!
Zen (zen.arado): it's on cameral controls in LL viewer
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): oooch
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
Liza Deischer: mmwhen you are in mouselook, press the leftbuttong of your mouse
Liza Deischer: miss ..ah.. ouch :)
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
Snowball Thrower: whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): i did it!!!
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): Woot
Liza Deischer: oh, she jumps, how smart :)
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): hey!! now youre killing me LOL
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Liza Deischer: I got stuck!! :)
Liza Deischer: ouch
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): me too Liza, youre really kickin my butt
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): Im trying to hit you and you keep moving, stay still HAhhahha
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): joking
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): ooooouch
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): I wish this coud keep score :d
Second Life: Can't rez object 'Snowball' at { 195.263, 24.347, 108.803 } on parcel 'Kira Cafe - http://kira.org' in region Mieum because the parcel is too full.
Second Life: Can't rez object 'Snowball' at { 195.266, 24.3492, 108.815 } on parcel 'Kira Cafe - http://kira.org' in region Mieum because the parcel is too full.
Zen (zen.arado): ha ha competitive element
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): ka bloueey
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): ouuuch
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): hehehe
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): this is fun guys, but I got to go!!!!
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): yikes
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): :D
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): warn the others about the puddles in here, would ya?
Zen (zen.arado): he heh
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): :D
Zen (zen.arado): I better go too :)
Liza Deischer: I need to go as well ... was great fun :)
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): heh
Zen (zen.arado): thanks for dropping by Sharon and Liza ;)
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): take care, see you soon
Sophia (sophiasharon.larnia): thank You mr. Zen
Zen (zen.arado): byee