The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Writing and novels:

Zen Arado: ..Hi Druth :)
druth Vlodovic: hi zen
druth Vlodovic: what's the theme this week?
Zen Arado: don't know
Zen Arado: don't think there is one
druth Vlodovic: no-theme fascinating
Zen Arado: unless they came up with something after I left guardian's meeting
Zen Arado: sometimes they get tired of themes
Zen Arado: and some guardians never use them anyway
druth Vlodovic: what about you?
Zen Arado: have you anything in mind for a topic?
druth Vlodovic: lol, no, that's why I asked
Zen Arado: I like to have a theme for a basis for a discussion
Zen Arado: the trouble is not everyone is interested in the kind of things I am :-)
druth Vlodovic: and what sort of things are you interested in?
Zen Arado: sometimes I am flogging a dead horse
Zen Arado: spiritual things like Zen and non-duality
Zen Arado: I am just starting a course on creative writing
Zen Arado: so I am quite interested in that at the moment
Zen Arado: actually I feel a lot of trepidation about it
Zen Arado: I am okay writing if I have something to write about
Zen Arado: but having to construct a story might not be so easy
Zen Arado: but I think they teach you ways to be imaginative
druth Vlodovic: asimov kept saying that writing is a kind of disease, you catch it and can't stop
Zen Arado: you are in the second person who has mentioned Asimov to me
Zen Arado: in the last two days
Zen Arado: I remember reading his novels when I was a teenager
Zen Arado: and that's a long time ago :-)
druth Vlodovic: it's a sign :)
Zen Arado: the foundation trilogy wasn't it?
druth Vlodovic: he was hugely prolific
druth Vlodovic: that was one of his series'
Zen Arado: I can't remember much about them now
Zen Arado: maybe I should reread them
druth Vlodovic: he wrote some science stuff too,but I honestly haven't read it
Zen Arado: I remember his laws of Robotics
druth Vlodovic: lol, wishful thinking
Zen Arado: I read a science fiction novel a month ago
druth Vlodovic: what is it called?
Zen Arado: ' everyone in Silico'
Zen Arado: I think it was called
druth Vlodovic: any good?
Zen Arado: quite interesting
Zen Arado: it was about people uploading their minds to a virtual reality
Zen Arado: makes you think :-)
druth Vlodovic: I read one a while ago,and hate myself for forgetting the name,where people live in RL but are so surrounded by the virtual that they might as well be in a virtual world
druth Vlodovic: they even had a way of making contracts with others before talking to them to decide such things as how much of the conversation each would remember
Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.com/Everyone-Silic...yone+in+silico

Zen Arado: interesting
Zen Arado: I'm reading a novel at the moment by a Japanese writer called Haruki Murakami
Zen Arado: it is a bit like science fiction
Zen Arado: '1Q84'
druth Vlodovic: ok
Zen Arado: he is a good writer
druth Vlodovic: interesting the in silico thing
druth Vlodovic: especially read by a person interested in non-duality :)
Zen Arado: yeah, it was quite amusing too
Zen Arado: you could get different commercial deals when you transferred to the virtual reality
Zen Arado: if you only took the cheap package there were ads in the sky
Zen Arado: :)
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: well,I chose my e-mail account that way
Zen Arado: don't we all :-)
druth Vlodovic: in fact,before satellite TV was paid for that way,so why not?
druth Vlodovic: although
druth Vlodovic: I wonder if a lot of western cynicism isn't exacerbated by a constant exposure to advertising
Zen Arado: yes, what's that expression about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing
Zen Arado: I think Oscar Wilde said that
Zen Arado: his definition of a cynic
druth Vlodovic: not to mention having to evaluate everything you hear "why are they saying this, and what do they have to gain?"

Food advertising:

Zen Arado: I was watching a TV programme last night where they investigated the word 'probiotic' as used in yoghurt
druth Vlodovic: sounds interesting :)
druth Vlodovic: what did they find?
Zen Arado: apparently it was some kind of bacteria taken from the stomach of an American male and then propagated in the lab
druth Vlodovic: ick
Zen Arado: but they might have just made that up and the word is actually meaningless :-)
Zen Arado: because these guys challenged the word
Alfred Kelberry: mr zen
Zen Arado: Hi Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: ms druth
druth Vlodovic: hi alf
Alfred Kelberry: :)
druth Vlodovic: you mean the story about the bacteria was made up?
Alfred Kelberry: what guys? who is challenging?
Zen Arado: the guys who made the program... they investigate the claims made by food manufacturers
Alfred Kelberry: what program?
Zen Arado: I didn't watch the whole program, just a short segment when I was having a cup of coffee
Alfred Kelberry: are we all doomed?
Zen Arado: it was a TV programme here in the UK boxy
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Zen Arado: nah, we were talking about advertising and cynicism it can generate
druth Vlodovic: I tease my daughter all the time by going to the fridge and saying that I am getting out some inorganic food
Alfred Kelberry: organic is trendy these days
Zen Arado: there are standards which have to be complied with but they get around them by using vague meaningless expressions
Zen Arado: ha good one Druth
Alfred Kelberry: zen, advertisers?
Zen Arado: especially on TV
Alfred Kelberry: right
Zen Arado: the makers of the TV programme challenged the word 'probiotic'
druth Vlodovic: I was working at a factory where we took chinese brake pads and put them in boxes marked "made in Canada", and we were doing this while the gov'tinspector was inspecting the plant!
Alfred Kelberry: e.g. the word "natural" has no legal binding and they can use it on anything
Zen Arado: wow amazing
Alfred Kelberry: that's why you often see natural this and natural that :)
Zen Arado: the word "natural" doesn't seem to have much meaning in any context I think
druth Vlodovic: "unnatural whole grain cereal"
Alfred Kelberry: it does imply something green and healthy

druth Vlodovic: "post-biotic yogurt"
Zen Arado: were do you draw the line between what is natural and and unnatural?
Zen Arado: All farming is unnatural
Zen Arado: unless farmers just went out and picked up what they could find without actually doing anything
druth Vlodovic: speaking of "virtual worlds" lol
druth Vlodovic: well,if you consider human beings to be animals who are the product of nature, then anything we do is natural
Zen Arado: everything in this world is natural isn't it
Zen Arado: , yes snap
druth Vlodovic: great minds :)
Zen Arado: so Second Life is a natural outcome of computing
Alfred Kelberry: this organic influence is coming from the u.s. i think europe has a healthy gastronomical attitude on average
Zen Arado: what about GSM?
Alfred Kelberry: gs-what?
Zen Arado: I forget what that means
druth Vlodovic: I suspect that hard-sell advertising is helping to separate people from their own opinions and observations
druth Vlodovic: so it makes it harder to just listen to our bodies and do what they want
druth Vlodovic: like this business of having a huge breakfast, medium lunch and small supper seems unnatural to me, and I have no way of checking it's validity
Alfred Kelberry: there's no one golden recipe
druth Vlodovic: European culture has thousands of years to develop with little advertising, but north america was partly "colonized" as a result of it
Alfred Kelberry: some like steak for breakfast :)
Zen Arado: I must have got the acronym wrong
druth Vlodovic: genetically modified food?
Alfred Kelberry: oh, that
Zen Arado: ah that's it
Zen Arado: GMS
druth Vlodovic: frankenfood
Alfred Kelberry: well, what food isn't these days
Zen Arado: GMF
Zen Arado: hmmm
Alfred Kelberry: i actually don't mind genetic food
druth Vlodovic: most of our crops are so heavily modified they can't survive well in the wild, though this is due to selctive breeding
Zen Arado: the main thing is that we have food
Zen Arado: the problem is when we depend too much on a single crop
Zen Arado: like wheat
Alfred Kelberry: it could be that advertisers themselves brought it to our attention so they could now proudly announce on their products that it's gmf free :)
druth Vlodovic: lol
Zen Arado: I wonder what will happen if they have a really powerful volcano that blocks out the sunshine for a summer
druth Vlodovic: banannas
druth Vlodovic: they say there are two types of edible banannas
Alfred Kelberry: aph! the hiking girl :)
Zen Arado: Hi Aph
druth Vlodovic: except that one got wiped out entirely by a fungus of some sort,so now there is only one
druth Vlodovic: hey aph
Aphrodite Macbain: sings: oh yes we have no bananas, we have no bananas today
Aphrodite Macbain: graciously waves
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi
druth Vlodovic: all clones of the one edible banana found in nature or something
Aphrodite Macbain: fungus?
Aphrodite Macbain: am I ca clone of an edible banana?
Zen Arado: they have some new way of micro-propagating bananas
Alfred Kelberry: aph, you wish!
Zen Arado: I read about it last year but I can't remember much now
Aphrodite Macbain: :-]
Zen Arado: I'm not going to do any more science courses
Zen Arado: I just forget everything again so what's the point?
Aphrodite Macbain: giggles. why Zen?
druth Vlodovic: it gives you stuff to imaginate from
Zen Arado: it's all just facts anyway
Alfred Kelberry: zen, quit beating yourself up
Aphrodite Macbain: some stuff stays- like fungus- you just cant see it
Zen Arado: you can look it up on the web
druth Vlodovic: back top virtual reality :)
Aphrodite Macbain removes the flagellating whip from Zen's hand
Zen Arado: ( though you need to know about something before you know what to look up)
Alfred Kelberry: oh yes, the web is a new auxiliary memory

Wars :

druth Vlodovic: do you know I was once so ignorant that I thought that there were no wars between WW1 and WW2?
Zen Arado: a little self-flagellation is good

druth Vlodovic: I only found out differently accidentally because I had no way of knowing to look it up
Alfred Kelberry: druth, not of the world scale at least
Aphrodite Macbain hands Zen a hair shirt - try this.
Alfred Kelberry: mmm, this was a tasty strawberry cake
Alfred Kelberry: now it's gone
druth Vlodovic: Spanish civil war
Zen Arado: oh so itchy..great :)
druth Vlodovic: big war, everyone involved
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: three profound statements
druth Vlodovic: "The pain is going to make everything all right"
Aphrodite Macbain: but not "world"
Alfred Kelberry: i stay away from wars
Zen Arado: they say there have always been wars
Aphrodite Macbain: lots of money to be made from them
Alfred Kelberry: in fact, i don't follow anything syrian or whatnot
druth Vlodovic: people from most of the world fought in it, but that's not really my point
Alfred Kelberry: aph, well noted :)
druth Vlodovic: it's that I was taught that it was a period of world peace
Aphrodite Macbain: apparently there are fewer wars than ever before
druth Vlodovic: and I believed it
druth Vlodovic: I think of this when I hear about censorship
Zen Arado: perhaps it was a time of relative peace
Aphrodite Macbain: everybody knew about the spanish CIVIL war
Aphrodite Macbain: in the west
Zen Arado: perhaps we couldn't have wars on the scale of the first and second world Wars any more
Aphrodite Macbain: great way to reduce the population
Zen Arado: they would escalate into nuclear wars and that would be the end of us
druth Vlodovic: actually wars increase population, if you look at statistics
Aphrodite Macbain: ??
druth Vlodovic: the baby boom is the most obvious example
Aphrodite Macbain: for every person who dies. twoget born?
Aphrodite Macbain: why was there a baby boom? optimism?
Zen Arado: what caused the baby boom?
Aphrodite Macbain: I asked that first
Alfred Kelberry: right, she was first
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
druth Vlodovic: lot's of violent men in uniform to sweep the ladies off their feet is my guess
Aphrodite Macbain: who can answer i first?
Aphrodite Macbain: properly
druth Vlodovic:
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Zen Arado: I was born during the second world war
Zen Arado: it was tough :)
Zen Arado: there were food shortages
Zen Arado: people don't know what that's like in developed countries
Zen Arado: we just trot down to the supermarket and get anything we like
Aphrodite Macbain: Young males returning to the United States, Canada, and Australia following tours of duty overseas during World War II began families, which brought about a significant number of new children into the world. This dramatic increase in the number of births from 1946 to 1964 (1947 to 1966 in Canada and 1946-1961 in Australia) is called the Baby Boom.
druth Vlodovic: isn't that what I said?
Aphrodite Macbain: those males would have been there anyway. Did war inspire them?
Zen Arado: why did it end then?
Aphrodite Macbain: reality
Aphrodite Macbain: good question Zen
Zen Arado: why doesn't that mention Britain?
druth Vlodovic: violence and uncertanty makes people breed more, a natural selection thing
Aphrodite Macbain: yes it is druth- but it doesnt make sense. Those men were there anyway.
druth Vlodovic: hopefully ten months later the crisis is over and you need replacement humans
Aphrodite Macbain: Did war make them want to make babies?
Zen Arado: Druth yes... people like to have children to look after them when they get old
Zen Arado: although that doesn't happen nowadays
Zen Arado: the children move away
Aphrodite Macbain: why does it happen more after a war?
druth Vlodovic: I suspect it is more natural than reasonable
Aphrodite Macbain: nature isn't reasonable?
druth Vlodovic: it has it's own logic,which isn't always "nice"
Aphrodite Macbain: my coffee has finally had an effect
Zen Arado: that's why the population is high in underdeveloped countries
Alfred Kelberry: aph, where do you go hiking?
Aphrodite Macbain: no birth control?
Zen Arado: children can work and earn money as well
Alfred Kelberry: traditional society
Aphrodite Macbain: where- Mount Assiniboine
druth Vlodovic: high stress makes guys seek solace in a woman's arms (putting it politely, there are other words to use)

Aph's holiday:

Aphrodite Macbain: gooogle it. Mt Assiniboine Lodge
Alfred Kelberry: aph, cool. how high will you climb?
Aphrodite Macbain: we take helicopters in :-) and out
Zen Arado: do you train for it?
druth Vlodovic: and people want an accomplishment when everything is hopeless
Aphrodite Macbain: otherwise it would be 23 miles
Aphrodite Macbain: I should Zen but I haven't
Alfred Kelberry: heli?! thats' cheating! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Once we're there there are trails that take us higher in many directions
Aphrodite Macbain: I used to hike in - in my 40s
Zen Arado: how high is it?

Alfred Kelberry: well, lot's of beautiful scenery on the heli ride
Aphrodite Macbain: But I'm not going to do that to myself this time. I have to take this bdy to Italy immediately afterward
Alfred Kelberry: oh, tough girl :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It's really amazing to take a helicopter into the mountains - and over them.
Aphrodite Macbain: like flying
Aphrodite Macbain: so close to the face
Alfred Kelberry: bring us pictures :)
Aphrodite Macbain: this group of women I'm hiking with has been hiking together every September for 28 years
Alfred Kelberry: how much is a heli round trip?
Aphrodite Macbain: $300 :-(
Alfred Kelberry: not bad
Aphrodite Macbain: It's expensive. Has tripled in cost since I last did it
Alfred Kelberry: wow
Zen Arado: sounds expensive to me
Zen Arado: but it's worth it if you enjoy it
Aphrodite Macbain: plus the cost of the flight to Calgary, plus the cost of the lodge.
Alfred Kelberry: do you split it?
Aphrodite Macbain: we are scattering Kate's ashes there- it's an important event for us
Zen Arado: I thought it was 300 dollars each
Alfred Kelberry: oh yes
Aphrodite Macbain: no - we each pay that
Aphrodite Macbain: it is Zen
druth Vlodovic: I need a helicopter
Alfred Kelberry: how many people on a heli?
Aphrodite Macbain: normally we dont do this.
Zen Arado: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: 3 plus the pilot
Alfred Kelberry: ok, so 1k for a trip
Aphrodite Macbain: plus our backpacks
Alfred Kelberry: how long is it?
Aphrodite Macbain: a little less- maybe $800
Aphrodite Macbain: 3 days
Alfred Kelberry: i mean, the heli ride
Aphrodite Macbain: 20 minues in
Aphrodite Macbain: 20 minutes out
Aphrodite Macbain: I hope the weather will be good
Alfred Kelberry: yea, like a plane ticket cost
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: I like helicopters- I dont get motion sick in them if the weather is bumpy
Zen Arado: I have never been in one
Zen Arado: they always look dangerous to me
Zen Arado: you see so many movies with helicopters bursting into flames
Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to ride on a military heli
Aphrodite Macbain: no more than a car
Alfred Kelberry: zen :)
Zen Arado: it seems to be a must in action movies :-)
Zen Arado: but I'm sure they are perfectly self
Aphrodite Macbain: well, time to get more coffee
druth Vlodovic: cars don't burst into flames that much either,except pintos
Zen Arado: safe
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Zen Arado: bye Aph
Alfred Kelberry: ok, back to work for me
druth Vlodovic: I have to go too, have fun guys
Aphrodite Macbain: druth- want to come?
Alfred Kelberry: thank you for the company
Aphrodite Macbain: wow nice dress!
Zen Arado: kk byee Druth
druth Vlodovic: ty
Zen Arado: byee everybody