2011.07.10 13:00 - Meandering conversations

The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers.

This meeting had a peculiar feeling for me of coming into a conversation which began some time in the past, but whose themes are still, at least for one conversant, continuing, perhaps painfully.  For me it was an illustration of the varying realities we encounter and how and whether we can remain flexible amid these differing realities.

 

Dash Earthboy: hey y'all :)

Maxine Walden: hi, Dash!

Dash Earthboy: 's up?

Maxine Walden: how are you?

Dash Earthboy: hi Korel

Maxine Walden: what's up with you?

Maxine Walden: hi Korel

Dash Earthboy: i just had a good shower to cool off

Maxine Walden: ah, hot where you are?

Dash Earthboy: not compared to Korel :)

Maxine Walden: :)

Dash Earthboy: 106 Korel?

Maxine Walden: ?!!!

Dash Earthboy: I'm wilting at 95 here

Korel Laloix: 107 with a nice wind here.

Korel Laloix: Lovely

Maxine Walden: Where are you Korel?

Korel Laloix: On the porch with my laptop and nearly vigin margareta....

Korel Laloix: Near Tulsa.

Korel Laloix: virgin

Korel Laloix: Love it.

Maxine Walden: ah...

Korel Laloix: In a nice steady sweat.

Maxine Walden: Nice to love the hot weather when you are in it

Maxine Walden: probably pretty humid as well

Dash Earthboy: 'tis here

Maxine Walden: where are you Dash?

Dash Earthboy: near Atlanta

Maxine Walden: ah, yes, good and humid there I can imagine

Dash Earthboy: hey Wol :)

Maxine Walden: I am in Seattle, and well, the temp is about 62 !

Wol Euler: hello maxine, korel, dash

Dash Earthboy: that's my speed Max :)

Maxine Walden: hi, Wol, we are comparing temperatures...not bodily but weatherwise

Wol Euler: hehehh

Maxine Walden: mine too, Dash

Wol Euler: let me check

Korel Laloix: About 20perent humidity here.

Maxine Walden: we have 107near Tulsa, 96 and humid near Atlanta, and a big 62 in Seattle

Wol Euler: 22C, but very humid. oppressive, thunderstorms all day

Wol Euler: well, thunder but not much rain

Dash Earthboy: only 61% humidity here at this time

Korel Laloix: I love wet heat as well.... but dry is nice for a start.

Maxine Walden: (checking the humidity here)

Dash Earthboy: Seattle probably not too dry :)

Korel Laloix: I keep saying I want to find a job inspecting saunas on the equator....

Wol Euler: O.O

Maxine Walden: 60 degrees and 79 % humidity, the weather folks say

Wol Euler: better you than me

Wol Euler: that would be hell for me, korel

Dash Earthboy: i can live with that climate Max :)

Maxine Walden: Korel, I have not heard of someone liking heat and humidity so much as you ! Interesting

Maxine Walden: yes, Dash, me too. Maybe I am a weather wimp, but cool is good for me...

Korel Laloix: It drives people that have ot live and work with me nuts....

Korel Laloix: I am just always cold, so I love it when I am actualy hot maybe.

Wol Euler nods.

Wol Euler: that makes sense

Maxine Walden: ah, makes sense, Korel

Dash Earthboy: yep

Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.

Maxine Walden: Well, what's on folks mind besides the weather?

Maxine Walden: or along side of the weather?

Dash Earthboy: i've been thinking of people who are so anguished over "what is time?"

Wol Euler: very little, to be honest :)

Wol Euler: having a slow day

Maxine Walden: :), Wol. Say more, Dash?

Dash Earthboy: actually happy for ya Wol ;)

Maxine Walden: Sundays are for slowness

Dash Earthboy: to me the "what is time?" question is very much like asking "what is distance?"

Maxine Walden: hmm

Dash Earthboy: it's a quantification concept used in conjunction with other concepts (measurement standards) to quantify something else

Dash Earthboy: no universal definition of "distance"

Dash Earthboy: just units of measurement of distance

Maxine Walden: Does that mean that a question about the nature of distance makes no sense to ask?

Dash Earthboy: in that context, Max, i'd say "yes" it is not a reasonable question

Wol Euler ponders

Dash Earthboy: inquiry into the nature of distance will yield answers about measurement standards

Wol Euler: that would mean that things which are not already defined, can never be defined?

Dash Earthboy: between this and that

Dash Earthboy: not necessarily Wol

Wol Euler: no universal definition of distance means we cannot talk about distance, then we can never arrive at an universal definiton

Dash Earthboy: we couldn't define atoms as a form 100 years ago

Wol Euler: *if no ....

Wol Euler: right, but in contrast to your statment we continued to try :) and so now we can

Dash Earthboy: we continued to try to describe matter, not atoms tho

Maxine Walden: hmm. hi, Zon

Dash Earthboy: hi Zon

Wol Euler: hello zon

Zon Kwan: hi hi

Dash Earthboy: we can certainly discuss distance, but as a concept it is like time: no universal definition, just acceptable measurement standards

Maxine Walden: care to join our maybe philosophical discussion about the value of asking about the nature of distance or the nature of time

Korel Laloix: The only interesting definition of time I have ever hear was this....

Dash Earthboy: what's a kilometer to some is part of a mile to others

Korel Laloix: Time is the fundamental property of the unierse that prevents everything from happening at once.

Dash Earthboy: hehe

Wol Euler smiles.

Korel Laloix: Interesting, but never really thought much about it.

Maxine Walden: heard that definition took, Korel, it is cute.

Dash Earthboy: yep

Dash Earthboy: what's a minute to some is microseconds to others

Maxine Walden: Seems we lost Zon; maybe too heavy a conversation for a Sunday afternoon?

Wol Euler: :)

Wol Euler: perhaps he didn't have the time

Dash Earthboy: but minutes and ms are both measurements, not essences ?

Maxine Walden: maybe so, Wol

Dash Earthboy: Zon had a problem accepting that the oxygen we get from breathing air in is a "reward"

Maxine Walden: not sure I quite follow, Dash

Dash Earthboy: the discussion was about actions and rewards

Play as Being 15 minute bell

Korel Laloix: brb

Maxine Walden: ah.

Dash Earthboy: Zen was describing zen practices in retreats

Dash Earthboy: after I said "not all rewards are a bad thing"

Dash Earthboy: in light of the idea of "acting without the purpose of getting something"

Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.

Dash Earthboy: Zon had taken position that doing anything for which one received something in return was basically the "normal" selfish approach to human activity

Wol Euler: this feels like it's related to the endless debate on altruism, whether feeling good after doing an altruistic deed makes that filthily greedy

Wol Euler: and de-altruizes it

Dash Earthboy: yes

Dash Earthboy: so when I used the breathing air in example of getting a "reward" for the action

Wol Euler: I have very little patience for that, to worry that your preciuos soul would be corrupted by feeling good about doing good deeds seems to me futile

Dash Earthboy: Zon re-defined reward to mean "not that, that's JUST LIVING"

Dash Earthboy: i'm with you Wol ;)

Wol Euler: if your soul feels better for sitting at home not helping your fellows, then ... smiles and bites her tongue

Dash Earthboy: i just want people to say what they mean

Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.

Dash Earthboy: and not take the narcissistic approach that "it means what I say it means when I ssay it"

Wol Euler gently suggests that you might perhaps be doing the same.

Dash Earthboy: not normally

Wol Euler smiles.

Dash Earthboy: II hold to the same definitions decade after decade

Wol Euler: but if your definitions are not ours, then that is exactly "it means what I say it means when I ssay it"

Wol Euler: surely?

Maxine Walden: Sometimes when a person feels strongly about something definitions seem to stay pretty much the same...and maybe differs from others' views?

Dash Earthboy: ummm, that misses the point: momentary definitions for any given context to prove one's point

You decline Mountain Meditation @ Perfect Paradise from A group member named Bertram Jacobus.

Dash Earthboy: my defintions are more broad in scope and more stable than that

Maxine Walden: Somehow I feel I have come into a discussion, debate half way through or missed part of...it is a strangely disjointed feeling

Wol Euler: agreed, maxine :)

Wol Euler: why I stopped myself :)

Maxine Walden: :)

Dash Earthboy: :)

Wol Euler: like coming onto the stage of an improv theatre and being told "this is the middle of act 2 scene 7, go!"

Dash Earthboy: heheh

Wol Euler: what came before? where are we? who are you all?

Maxine Walden: exactly! Wol

Maxine Walden: not sure where the end of the stage is, where the edge of the earth is...

Wol Euler nods.

Dash Earthboy: well, i then had shared my story about mules

Dash Earthboy: and it took awhile, but Zen got it

Maxine Walden: Mules? Another mid-discussion moment?

Dash Earthboy: here's another short story i've composed to help explain why i interfere:

Dash Earthboy: I said "I'm constant as the Northern Star."

You mocked me "Constantly in the dark, huh?"

So unaware you missed the point.

I'm giving you the light I can so you can avert stumbling around in that same darkness.

Dash Earthboy: i usually follow that story with "choose your teachers" as good advice :)

Maxine Walden: One way to think about your short story, as I read it Dash, is that different perspectives do lead to apparent mis-understandins or maybe painful seeming mockeries...

Dash Earthboy: oh Max it goes beyond that

Maxine Walden: but that the issue which brings misunderstanding and perhaps pain, really may have to do with different perspectives, or non-alignment re definitions of points of view

Maxine Walden: ah, well then tell me

Dash Earthboy: i've had SL people track me down on Facebook and start griefing me

Maxine Walden: why?

Dash Earthboy: and then yesterday, att the Quaker mtg, one of them started an animation on my av while I was still rezzing in

Dash Earthboy: just to disrupt thru embarrassing me

Maxine Walden: very sorry to hear that, Dash

Play as Being 15 minute bell

Dash Earthboy: yah, it isn't just different perspectives, it is "experts" who claim to believe one thing and then show they don't, who use mockery as just one tool

Dash Earthboy: hey Korel

Dash Earthboy: wb

Maxine Walden: painful experiences to have to encounter

Wol Euler: wb

Dash Earthboy: for sure

Korel Laloix: Heya

Maxine Walden: hi, Korel

Dash Earthboy: y'all know anything about mules?

Wol Euler: drugs

Maxine Walden: not a thing!

Wol Euler: ?

Wol Euler: shoes?

Dash Earthboy: heheh Wol

Dash Earthboy: some people think a donkey and mule are the same animal

Dash Earthboy: well, would you care to see the mule story?

Maxine Walden: sure

Dash Earthboy: So afterwards the other mules got together and unanimously decreed "Dash just doesn't understand us." 

Dash had happened upon a dehydrated mule and had compassion for it. But he had learned how difficult it is to lead stubborn animals to the refreshing waters he knew. So instead he brought several buckets of water to the thirsty mule's position. He even held a bucket of it up to the mule's mouth. But the animal refused to drink what Dash knew would help it. So after it expired, the other mules got together and...

Dash Earthboy: :)

Wol Euler: :)

Maxine Walden: :)

Wol Euler: what is the moral? not to have compassion?

Dash Earthboy: ah, if it were a parable that might seem right Wol

You decline Bonchance's Happy Hour from A group member named Sandor Zabelin.

Wol Euler: or is it about assumptions not matching realities?

Dash Earthboy: really, I continue to go through the same cyclic experiences all through life

Dash Earthboy: and will not stop being who I am, compassion & all

Dash Earthboy: :)

Wol Euler: perhaps the moral is that help is no use if it's not the recipients need

Maxine Walden: Cyclic in that you have refreshing things to offer which others stubbornly refuse to their detriment?

Dash Earthboy: read closer Wol, they're denying their need

Dash Earthboy: kinda like the Northern Star story

Wol Euler: perhaps you need to give them water through a hose

Wol Euler: no, you are assuming that giving them water in a bucket is the solution

Wol Euler: perhaps I am reading too closely :)

Maxine Walden: Wol, I am thinking Dash is telling us that he knows that he has things which others refuse to acknowledge that they need

Wol Euler: indeed, but I respectfully ask whether that is true

Dash Earthboy: i know through training and experience much that is denied by others

Maxine Walden: And that may be the difficult question

Wol Euler: like the probably apocryphal story of the refugee woman who starved to death in a house full of food, because she'd never seen a can opener before

Wol Euler: but I do understand your position, and the frustration you must feel

Maxine Walden: Perhaps the frustration lies in the certainty that Dash feels, which others do not necessarily share

Dash Earthboy: imagine going into the Department of Labor and a re-employment agent will not refer you to a position that requires 6 months experience with accounts payable

Dash Earthboy: this happened to me here

Wol Euler infers that you do have such experience?

Dash Earthboy: i pointed out that i'd owned my own business with my own state tax ID for four years in IL

Wol Euler: ah.

Wol Euler: okay, that helps with the context :)

Maxine Walden: so Dash, yyes :)

Dash Earthboy: as well as having been the accounting manager for a fabrics distributor

Dash Earthboy: ok, Wol, that was a good example of what I run into quite often

Korel Laloix: A lot of times the problem is that the charity is for the giver not the receiver.... when in that situation, it is very demeaning to take it.

Maxine Walden: you are feeling truly under-recognized

Wol Euler nods.

Korel Laloix: A lot of social workers and other "helpers" have zero clue.

Dash Earthboy: on my defining "love" I was stopped by one minister who challenged "what do you mean by 'concern'?"

Dash Earthboy: before I finished the definition

Dash Earthboy: people don't want to listen to me let alone accept what i say as having any "authority"

Maxine Walden: feeling under valued and often over-ridden re your authority. A painful place to feel in, Dash

Wol Euler nods.

Dash Earthboy: agrees

Play as Being 15 minute bell

Dash Earthboy: but my role models Socrates and Jesus faced the same opposition/mocking, and so did my role model Vincent Van Gogh who didn't achieve the success with painting that i've achieved in music :(

Dash Earthboy: my value may come posthumously as with my role models

Wol Euler: I hope not, dash; but I must go, anohter appointment

Wol Euler: take care, my dears

Dash Earthboy: bye Wol

Maxine Walden: Pleased to hear that you feel some inner worth and authority re your music, Dash. It seems to me important that we hold our own inner value

Maxine Walden: bye Wol. take care,

Maxine Walden: Afraid I have to go. And I will be away the next 3 Sundays at this time. See you in a few weeks

Dash Earthboy: Bye Maxine

Maxine Walden: hope you have a good retreat, Wol.

Maxine Walden: bye Dash, take care

Dash Earthboy: farewell wherever you may be Max

Maxine Walden: And stay cool, or warm rather, Korel