2011.07.21 01:00 - Non Duality

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Bertrum Resident, Hamlet Graves, Lyka Ciaco, Selene Northman and myself

Hamlet introduces himself and a topic he wishes to talk about:

Hamlet Graves: hello Zen
Zen Arado: Hello Hamlet
Hamlet Graves: what would you like to talk about ?
Zen Arado: whatever you like :)
Zen Arado: have I met you nefore?
Hamlet Graves: I don;t think so
Zen Arado: before
Hamlet Graves: I don;t come here very often
Zen Arado: have you been here before?
Hamlet Graves: yes
Zen Arado: ok so you are happy that the sessions are recorded ?
Hamlet Graves: yes
Zen Arado: fine
Zen Arado: what brings you here this morning?
Hamlet Graves: lack of anything better to do
Hamlet Graves: I will talk today about Advaita Vedanta
Hamlet Graves: unless there are any objections
Zen Arado: sure ..go ahead
Hamlet Graves: Advaita Vedanta, or non-duality to give it its english name ...
Zen Arado: ok
Hamlet Graves: is a philosophy, or science even , based on the premise that there is one conscious entity
Hamlet Graves: this was researched over milllenia and formulated in various scriptures
Hamlet Graves: collectively known as the upanishads
Zen Arado: you make it sound scientific
Zen Arado: sorry I am interrupting
Hamlet Graves: that's quite alright
Zen Arado: ...
Hamlet Graves: sorry was interrupted in rl
Zen Arado: np
Hamlet Graves: anyway, as I was saying
Zen Arado: Hi Bertrum
Bertrum Resident: Hi everyone
Hamlet Graves: the key to understanding advaita is to appreciate first, that ...
Zen Arado: Hamlet is telling me about Advaita
Hamlet Graves: hello Betrum

Happiness is...:

Hamlet Graves: happiness does not lie in the objects by which we are surrounded
Zen Arado: think most religions teach that too
Hamlet Graves: material objects, and acquistion thereof can bring temporary happiness
Hamlet Graves: because, why ?
Hamlet Graves: because .. the desire stops
Zen Arado: material things are impermanent
Hamlet Graves: exactly
Zen Arado: if we get attached to them it hurts when we lose them
Hamlet Graves: people associate the happiness that the object seems to bring, with the object
Zen Arado: so we suffer
Hamlet Graves: but in fact the happiness is was there all allong
Zen Arado: so why do we lose it?
Hamlet Graves: what clouded it was the desire, brought on by the beleif that objects have some sort of reality
Hamlet Graves: good question
Hamlet Graves: the fundamental reason that happiness is lost, is ....
Hamlet Graves: ignorance of what we real;ly are
Zen Arado: hmmm...yes
Hamlet Graves: object based does not just revolove around 'material' things
Hamlet Graves: *object based happiness
Hamlet Graves: states of mind, feelings, relationships etc etc are all objects
Zen Arado: Hi Selene
Hamlet Graves: hello Selene
Bertrum Resident: hi Selene
Selene Northman: hello Zen, Hamlet and Bertrum
Zen Arado: have you been here before Selene?
Hamlet Graves: so, ignorance can be present at very subtle levels
Selene Northman: yes, but it has been ages ago
Zen Arado: ok so you are happry that the session is recorded?
Selene Northman: yes, no problem
Zen Arado: good :)
Selene Northman: :)
Hamlet Graves: we associate happiness with various objects, both phyiscal and subtle :)
Zen Arado: we are talking about Advaita Vedanta Selene
Zen Arado: I think also that we lose happiness becaus we have become so engrossed in survival
Zen Arado: to survive we needed to plan and scheme
Hamlet Graves: that's true, but what is 'survival'
Zen Arado: and we then keep doing that when it isn't necessary
Hamlet Graves: the notion of survival is based on the view that I am this physical body
Zen Arado: well when we were on the sanahhah ...out primitive ancestors I mean
Zen Arado: savannah*
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: Advaita is very much about no-self as far as I know
Hamlet Graves: Advaita says that your true nature is consciousness, bliss, awareness
Zen Arado: yes and I agree
Zen Arado: in common with Zen
Hamlet Graves: in order to 'realize'[ this a means of knowledge is required
Zen Arado: or a subtraction of knowledge?
Hamlet Graves: subtraction of ignorance ceretainly
Zen Arado: coming back to your original state
Zen Arado: Hi Egg
eggsalad Ormstein: hello
eggsalad Ormstein: hi zen

Searching for what we already have:

Hamlet Graves: well you already have your 'original state'
Zen Arado: yes but we overlay it with ignorance?
Hamlet Graves: that's the whole thing, the problem is, you just don;t realize it
Zen Arado: yes
Hamlet Graves: the thing you are searching for, you already have
Zen Arado: (only saying the way I see it)
Zen Arado: yes
Hamlet Graves: understtod :)
Zen Arado: it isn't external
Hamlet Graves: exactly
Zen Arado: I read Nisargadatta a lot
Hamlet Graves: by a means of knowledge I am not referring to an academic exercise in collecting facts
Hamlet Graves: we go thorough life in the knowledge that we are a man or woman, and we don;t need to read about it unless we wish to
Hamlet Graves: this knowledge is deeply ingrained
Zen Arado: so why don't we all know it then?
Hamlet Graves: there are several reasons
Zen Arado: (not man/woman knowledge)
Hamlet Graves: firstly we are borning in to world which hgenreally worships the idrea of exteranality
Hamlet Graves: *born
Hamlet Graves: so the ignorance gets hammered in from an early age, not by any malicious intenet, it's just the way it is
Zen Arado: survival?
Zen Arado: we want our children to survive in this world too
Zen Arado: so we teach them the skills they need to survive
Hamlet Graves: that's true
Hamlet Graves: secondly, as an embodied being, we acquire tendancies which, result in various effects from life to life
Selene Northman: perhaps they need both skills some for the exernal world and some for non- duality
Zen Arado: yes
Hamlet Graves: yes, skills are needed
Zen Arado: agree Selene
Hamlet Graves: there is no opposition between learning survival skills and non-duality
Zen Arado: but maybe we concentrate too much on the survival bit?
Zen Arado: and lose the deeper peace
Selene Northman: I have suspected that, Zen
Zen Arado: Hello Santoshima
Hamlet Graves: brb Phone
Hamlet Graves: back
Zen Arado: wb
Hamlet Graves: providing of course, that it takes place in the knowledge that material survival is not the source of happiness
Selene Northman: wb
Zen Arado: maybe the word 'happiness' is itself misleading
Zen Arado: it's more equanimity
Zen Arado: to me
Zen Arado: a deep acceptance of things the way they are
Zen Arado: worldly happinees is kinda frothy and often has a downside to me
Hamlet Graves: this brings us onto another requirement for self realization, karma yoga
Zen Arado: a bubble that is easily burst

Allowing or control?

Hamlet Graves: karma yoga is the attitude that results are not up to me
Zen Arado: we WEsterners find that idea difficult
Zen Arado: we want to control
Hamlet Graves: I perform approriate actions in a timely fashion and I leave the result up to Ishwara, nature, or whatever you want to call it
Hamlet Graves: yes ...
Hamlet Graves: that is difficult for many westerners
Hamlet Graves: the western view is all about about having control
Hamlet Graves: as tyou say
Hamlet Graves: but a mind that wants to stay in control will find it hard to achieve equanimity
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: because we can't control the world
Zen Arado: too many variables
Zen Arado: and if we could the results would disappoint too I think
Hamlet Graves: now there are some neo-advaita sects that say that is all one, man, we can just celebrate party on etc
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: I'm not keen on some of those guys
Hamlet Graves: however, traditional advaita states that for realization the mind must be first purified
Zen Arado: so how do we do that?
Hamlet Graves: for exmaple by mediaition, self-enquiry, right attitude etc

Attitude to meditation:

Zen Arado: I used to go to the Urban Guru Cafe here in SL
Zen Arado: they are non-dualist
Zen Arado: the guy there told me meditation was a waste of time
Hamlet Graves: lol
Selene Northman: grins
Zen Arado: because you think it will get you somewhere
Hamlet Graves: there used to be an davita cafse or something
Zen Arado: brb
Hamlet Graves: *adavita cafe
Hamlet Graves: once the mind is suffiently clensed and clear, only then is it ready to completely comprehend the knowledge
Hamlet Graves: so yes, meditation is necessary, not necessarily to 'go' anywahere
Zen Arado: back
Selene Northman: wb Zen
Hamlet Graves: wb Zen
Zen Arado: yeh it#s the way you do the meditation
Zen Arado: the motive behind it
Hamlet Graves: yes, well meditation should also be undertaken with a karma-yoga attitide
Zen Arado: hte first thing ppll ask about meditation is 'what good will it do me?
Zen Arado: and that is the wrong attitude
Hamlet Graves: quite
Hamlet Graves: do it as an offering
Zen Arado: yes
Hamlet Graves: if there has to be an attitiude
Zen Arado: or as in Zen...we just sit and be aware
Zen Arado: open to what comes up
Hamlet Graves: once the mind is sufficiently clear and the subconscious tendancies have been weekened, then mind can comprehend the tue nature of the self
Hamlet Graves: *weakened
Bertrum Resident: What do you mean by the nature of the self?
Hamlet Graves: just as a wave on the ocean is all ocean, so all thjese objects physical, subtel and causal are all manifestations of the one consciousness
Zen Arado: I like the wave analogy
Zen Arado: was just reading this : 'Q: In love there must be duality, the lover and the beloved. M: In love there is not the one even, how can there be two? Love is the refusal to separate, to make distinctions. Before you can think of unity, you must first create duality. When you truly love, you do not say: 'I love you'; where there is mentation, there is duality. "
Zen Arado: (from Nisargadatta
Hamlet Graves: that's a good quite
Hamlet Graves: *quote
Hamlet Graves: I think that is is enough for today :)
Zen Arado: :)
Selene Northman: :)
Zen Arado: ty for your wise words
Hamlet Graves: welcome, the words are wise, but they are not mine :)
Bertrum Resident: :)
Bertrum Resident: Thank you all. Have a good day!
Zen Arado: bye Bertrum :)
Zen Arado: you too
Selene Northman: Same to you ,Bertrum :)
Hamlet Graves: bye Bertrum
Lyka Ciaco: who got 300L?
Zen Arado: yes we all want to do something to achieve some state

Lyka and her desire:

Zen Arado: Hi Tevayra
Lyka Ciaco: hi
Hamlet Graves: yes ... but no state is ever permanent, that's the big joke
Zen Arado: have you been here before?
Hamlet Graves: Hi Tevayra
Lyka Ciaco: no
Zen Arado: well the sessions are recorded and put on a Wiki...are you ok with that?
Hamlet Graves: yes I am aware of that
Hamlet Graves: oh you mean Hi Tevayra
Hamlet Graves: lol
Selene Northman: lol
Zen Arado: :)
Hamlet Graves: Tevayra is a good example
Lyka Ciaco: what?
Hamlet Graves: she thinks that aquiring linden will bring happiness in some form
Zen Arado: yeh :)
Selene Northman: definetely ;)
Lyka Ciaco: I need 300L to buy avatar
Hamlet Graves: and yes it will bring some dsort of temporay relief from desire
Lyka Ciaco: really
Hamlet Graves: and why do you need to buy an avatar Tevayra ?
Zen Arado: you have avatars in your inventory
Lyka Ciaco: yea but not that same like tiny White fox
Lyka Ciaco: for 500L
Zen Arado: you would be happy if you were a tiny white fox?
Hamlet Graves: the extroverting mind constantly seeks happiness from acquistion of objects
Hamlet Graves: as soon as one desire is fulfilled, another pops up to take its place
Zen Arado: yep
Lyka Ciaco: i want to be a white tiny fox
Zen Arado: I'm still doing it too
Zen Arado: it is so tempting
Zen Arado: and we are so conditioned
Hamlet Graves: being a tiny white fox will only bring temporary hapiness Tevayra
Zen Arado: hard to throw off that conditioning
Zen Arado: and asking peole for money in SL makes you unpopular
Selene Northman: I guess we are so used to it
Zen Arado: Tev
Lyka Ciaco: please who can give me 300L
Lyka Ciaco: ??
Selene Northman: and asking the wrong people can even bring you an abusereport
Zen Arado: yep
Hamlet Graves: ::: sigh ::: you do not seem to be following our argument
Zen Arado: I could give you money
Zen Arado: but I feel used then
Lyka Ciaco: i used it to buy that avatar
Zen Arado: if I thought you really needed it for food or something I would
Zen Arado: but not to buy a little white fox av
Hamlet Graves: Tevayra what will happen to you if you can't get to be a tiny white fox ?
Hamlet Graves: will you die ?
Lyka Ciaco: yea
Selene Northman: chuckles
Zen Arado: :)
Hamlet Graves: :)
Zen Arado: we aren't laughing at you Tev
Lyka Ciaco: pleasepleaseplease
Zen Arado: just at the idea that happinees is having a little white fox av
Hamlet Graves: just stand along way from your screen and your current avatar will appear tiny
Selene Northman: well but then the entire screen will appear tiny ,too ;)
Lyka Ciaco: i must got the white tiny fox
Zen Arado: your present wolf av is great too
Hamlet Graves: good point Selene
Zen Arado:

M: Everybody wants to be active, but where do his actions originate? There is no central point each action begets another, meaninglessly and painfully, in endless succession. The alternation of work and pause is not there. First find the immutable centre where all movement takes birth. Just like a wheel turns round an axle, so must you be always at the axle in the centre and not whirling at the periphery.

Q: How do I go about it in practice?

M: Whenever a thought or emotion of desire or fear comes to your mind, just turn away from it.

Zen Arado: actually the practice they do here is good for that
Zen Arado: continually coming back to your true self
Hamlet Graves: a worthwhile exercise
Zen Arado: just getting into the habit of that
Zen Arado: allowing other things to fall away
Zen Arado: comes from meditation too
Selene Northman: it certainly requires some excercise
Zen Arado: it's more of a relaxation though
Zen Arado: a non-doing doing
Zen Arado: even just allowing our natural state to shine through
Zen Arado: but funny how alien that seems to us
Hamlet Graves: any new thing seems strange when it opposes ingrained habit
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: I want to go at 2.30
Zen Arado: but will sit here quietly until then
Hamlet Graves: ditto
Selene Northman: ok
Zen Arado:

Q: Must I not use effort to arrest the movements of the mind?

M: It has nothing to do with effort. Just turn away, look between the thoughts, rather than at the thoughts. When you happen to walk in a crowd, you do not fight every man you meet -- you just find your way between.

Zen Arado: I have to go
Zen Arado: thanks for coming both of you :)
Selene Northman: good bye, Zen :)
Zen Arado: byeee
Hamlet Graves: welcome Zen, been good
Hamlet Graves: bye bye