The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. Present were Hamlet Graves and myself.

Chat logger:

Zen Arado: Hi Hamlet :)
Hamlet Graves: Naamaste Zen :)
Hamlet Graves: how goes it ?
Zen Arado: just a sec
Zen Arado: a
Zen Arado: have to re enter my email address for the chatlog
Zen Arado: ok
Hamlet Graves: Atha!
Zen Arado: the chat logger has been playing up
Hamlet Graves: maybe some things aren;t meant to be logged
Zen Arado: just technical difficulties
Hamlet Graves: do we know if people read the logs anyway ?
Zen Arado: must admit I rarely do
Zen Arado: but apparently some do
Zen Arado: you would have to be pretty dedicated to wade through all that stuff
Zen Arado: though some of it is interesting no doubt
Hamlet Graves: yes indeed

Hamlet's Retreat:

Hamlet Graves: I am going on a retreat in October
Zen Arado: ah great
Zen Arado: tell me about it
Hamlet Graves: to Bodrum, Turkey
Hamlet Graves: a hotel in a cove by the sea
Zen Arado: remember you sayig that
Zen Arado: long way to go?
Hamlet Graves: 4 hours from Gatwick
Zen Arado: must be a special teacher
Hamlet Graves: and then another 90 minutes or so
Hamlet Graves: James Swartz
Zen Arado: you live in the UK?
Hamlet Graves: Yes
Zen Arado: I see...not quite so far then
Zen Arado: a friend was in Turkey a month ago
Zen Arado: said it was 50 C part of the time
Hamlet Graves: did (s)he enjoy it ?
Zen Arado: yes ..apart for the heat
Hamlet Graves: October is is a more temperate time of year in Bodrum
Zen Arado: yes
Hamlet Graves: last year it was low 20s
Zen Arado: you go every year?
Hamlet Graves: this will be the second time
Zen Arado: what is the format of the retreat?
Hamlet Graves: yoga at 7:30, then breakfast
Hamlet Graves: a meeting about 10am or so
Hamlet Graves: then most of the afternoon free
Hamlet Graves: until supper at about 6pm
Hamlet Graves: followed by another meeting about 8pm
Hamlet Graves: very relaxed
Zen Arado: no meditation?
Hamlet Graves: no organised meditation, but those who wish to are free to meditate if they so wish
Zen Arado: I see

Zen Retreats:

Zen Arado: I could have been at a Zen retreat last week
Zen Arado: but they are getting too much for me physically
Hamlet Graves: oh yes ... did you 'tune in' remotely ?
Zen Arado: I listened to most of the talks yes
Hamlet Graves: how was that ?
Zen Arado: next time I might make more effort to do meditation and do the srudy part
Zen Arado: the talks were quite good I thought
Hamlet Graves: good
Zen Arado: I have dome two retreats alredy this year anyway
Hamlet Graves: oh well .....
Hamlet Graves: this will be my second one
Zen Arado: I aske me techer one time if retreats where essential
Zen Arado: he told me they were helpful but not essential
Zen Arado: lately I was thinkin that would like to do a solitary retreat
Zen Arado: but that is quite tough
Hamlet Graves: just you, alone ?
Zen Arado: yes
Hamlet Graves: you could do that at home
Zen Arado: some traditions encourage that
Zen Arado: yes but the problem is that people can contact you at home and there are so many tempting distractions
Hamlet Graves: good point

'Doing Nothing' retreat:

Zen Arado: I was reading about a man who went to a retreat where you just have to sit and do nothing most of the time
Hamlet Graves: where was that ?
Zen Arado: it was in an article in tricycle
Zen Arado: http://www.tricycle.com/feature/some...thing?page=0,0
Hamlet Graves: sorry phone
Zen Arado: ok
Zen Arado: 'Most of us are quite happy to do nothing for a few minutes, perhaps an hour or two, or, if we have had a particularly demanding stretch, for a day or two, a few days at the most. But to do nothing, to produce nothing, to achieve nothing for a month, a year, six years or more, is quite a different kettle of fish.'
Hamlet Graves: back
Zen Arado: wb
Zen Arado: "Ajahn Chah, one of the great Thai teachers of the 20th century, gave the following practice instruction: Put a chair in the middle of a room. Sit in the chair. See who comes to visit. "
Zen Arado: that would be almost impossble for most of us I thik
Hamlet Graves: there's no particular merit in not doing anything
Hamlet Graves: it is the pwoers of nature which act, the wise know that in truth they don't 'do' anything anyway
Zen Arado: the idea the author is getting at is that we have deep untended problems that never get looked at because we are so busy in our everyday lives
Hamlet Graves: ahhh, I see
Hamlet Graves: that is a good point
Zen Arado: and we have such an need to achieve things
Zen Arado: I know I have
Zen Arado: and maybe that reinforces the sense of self
Hamlet Graves: maybe it's the ego seeking to validate itself
Zen Arado: and really what do we achieve in the long run?
Zen Arado: yes
Hamlet Graves: all will be swept at away eventually
Hamlet Graves: tendancies bubble up from the 'subconscious' in response to certain stimuli
Zen Arado: the author had been too many conventional retreats but he find this one really challenging and difficult
Zen Arado: just sitting and opening up to whatever might come
Zen Arado: I tried to sit and do nothig for one afternoon
Hamlet Graves: what happened ?
Zen Arado: it was really difficult
Hamlet Graves: in what way ?
Zen Arado: I just felt I was wasting the aternoon
Hamlet Graves: did you carry on regardless ?
Zen Arado: yes but it was only for about two or 3 hours
Zen Arado: it makes me realise how important my activities are to me
Zen Arado: perhaps I only do thm to gain a feeling of self worth
Hamlet Graves: only you will know

Meaningless activities:

Zen Arado: well.... Maybe most of us never sit down and ask themselves why they do the things they do
Zen Arado: apart from having to make a living of course
Hamlet Graves: I am sure that's true
Zen Arado: and obviously if we all sat and did nothing civilisation as we know i would collapse
Hamlet Graves: yes and we would all be sitting in our own poo
Zen Arado: yes :)
Hamlet Graves: so it begs the question, is the act of physically doing nothing for long periods meritorious ?
Zen Arado: well I think it is, so long as we still take care of what is essential
Hamlet Graves: aside from the fact atht our internal organs have to keep functioning anyway, to keep the body alive
Zen Arado: so much of our activities are pretty trivial
Hamlet Graves: that's true
Hamlet Graves: measure in all things
Zen Arado: when you see how much importance is placed on some sports like football
Zen Arado: (although I like to watch it)
Hamlet Graves: sport is the new opiate for the masses
Zen Arado: yes.... It is the importance that is attached to it that is weird
Hamlet Graves: it enables people to commune withoout really communicating
Hamlet Graves: I would rather talk about manchester united trouncing arsenal than say how I am really feeling
Zen Arado: yes...me too T
Zen Arado: :)
Hamlet Graves: sport fanatics live a sort of vicarious live through the teams they support
Hamlet Graves: *life
Zen Arado: yes and Ithink his hapens with many of our activities
Zen Arado: we lose our true self in them
Hamlet Graves: and they indulge in meaningless conversations about tactics, managers, goals etc etc
Zen Arado: so what do we do?
Zen Arado: we just enjoy these things but not get too engrossed in them or make them too important?
Hamlet Graves: everyone is responsible for themselves
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: what do I do, I should have said
Hamlet Graves: so each has to look to their own lives and decide what is best
Zen Arado: yes
Hamlet Graves: as you said earlier, people fall into activities mechanically
Zen Arado: I am so fond of creating formulas for others
Zen Arado: and I am in the priveleged position of being retired
Zen Arado: no family to feed etc
Hamlet Graves: my community does it, my family does it, so I do it
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: I always wondered what life is all about
Zen Arado: but it doesn't trouble many too much
Zen Arado: they just get on with it
Zen Arado: mechanically sometimes.. as you say
Hamlet Graves: life isn't 'about' anything, that's the joke ... it's a play, an entertainment for consciousness
Hamlet Graves: we get caught in the externalities and forget the observer
Zen Arado: some can stand back and watch
Zen Arado: others are lost in their roles
Hamlet Graves: quite
Hamlet Graves: the whole cosmos unfolds in various ways according to certain laws quite beautifully
Hamlet Graves: mankind regards its activities as important or relevant, and yes to a degree they are, but only useful if in accordance with their dharma or nature
Zen Arado: I can also make 'not doing' into an important activity
Zen Arado: I'm thinking too much
Hamlet Graves: "I am the doer" and " I am the not-doer" are both false beleifs cherished by the ego, in fact you never did anything. your body is supplied by the cosmos, it's functions and regulation is not governed by you (although you can mistreat it) it's movements are not 'done' by you .... what do you in fact do anyway ?
Zen Arado: yes..the more I see the more I see this
Zen Arado: everything I do is the result of so many antecedent causes
Hamlet Graves: that's right
Zen Arado: but the ego likes to think it is a lone individual steering its destiny
Zen Arado: whereas in fact we are in a vast interconnected web of actions and interactions
Hamlet Graves: indeed
Hamlet Graves: but the simple truth behind all of this is that 'we' are just ordinary non-dual awareness
Hamlet Graves: the cosmos and and its interactions are things we observe
Zen Arado: I asked my teacher one time about this
Zen Arado: because it makes me feel lke an automaton with no free will
Hamlet Graves: oh dear ....
Zen Arado: he said ..ah but we have awareness
Zen Arado: 'free will' is just a concept invented by us
Zen Arado: humans anyway
Zen Arado: hmmm yes...I'm getting lost in the words...but I see what you are getting at I think
Zen Arado: so conditioned into dualistic thinking..
Zen Arado: I better go and 'do' something :)
Zen Arado: nice talking
Zen Arado: have a good retreat Hamlet
Zen Arado: bye