2011.09.19 07:00 - no compartmenalization...no gross generalizations...integration = just be

The guardian for this meeting was Eliza, joined by  Susan and Zen for most of the hour, with brief appearances from Arch and Dash as well... 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen!
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Susan :)
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): hi eliza
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): how are you?
Zen (zen.arado): you too
Zen (zen.arado): Hi susan
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): hi zen
Eliza Madrigal: Just fine, thanks :)
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): :)
Eliza Madrigal: I hope you both are fine as well :)

Zen (zen.arado): I don't know what I am
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: Say more?
Zen (zen.arado): how can you tell?

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): sunrise was lovely
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh, nice to hear that Susan... promise of a new day

Zen (zen.arado): need a standard of wellness to compare with
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): internal gauge?
Zen (zen.arado): my 'feeling good' might feel bad to others
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): standard of ones own life?
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): does that matter?
Zen (zen.arado): no not really I guess
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): (in communication...yes...but not as a standard)
Zen (zen.arado): we are as we are anyway
Zen (zen.arado): better not to cpmpare with others
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): nods

Eliza Madrigal: Oh... haha... reminds me of a skit I once saw... a girl was explaining to another girl that she wasn't the 'type' to be happy about sunrises, therefore her measure for happiness was different...
Zen (zen.arado): yeh that's dangerous
Eliza Madrigal: she was trying to figure out the test scores of a competitor
Eliza Madrigal: who said she was 'happy with hers'

Zen (zen.arado): some categorize themselves
Eliza Madrigal: I am the type to be happy with sunrises :)
Zen (zen.arado): freeze themselves into a way of being and limit themsleves
Zen (zen.arado): well better to have a positive categorization I guess

Eliza Madrigal: can we be happy with sunrises type and also many other things too
Eliza Madrigal: ? :) why not

-BELL

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): a sunrise isn't a primary value
Eliza Madrigal: Appreciation might be?
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): how so, eliza?
Zen (zen.arado): primary, secondary....do we need the categorizations?
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): (I do)
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): or perhaps not a need...but there is a hierarchy
Eliza Madrigal: it can be helpful, not as ultimate perhaps

Zen (zen.arado): I'm the type of person who doesn't think we need them ;)

Eliza Madrigal: someone with a primary value to notice and appreciate is motivated by that...
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): I think we do this naturally
Eliza Madrigal: so what we're really talking about then is filtering?
Zen (zen.arado): yes I agree
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): understand now, eliza. ty
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): filtering?
Zen (zen.arado): filtering suggests leaving some things out
Eliza Madrigal: yes sorting
Eliza Madrigal: as in cooking... choosing quality of ingredients to consume
Eliza Madrigal: making distinctions
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): yes
Eliza Madrigal: how could we do without that Zen? :)
Zen (zen.arado): might needit for practical thigs
Zen (zen.arado): but maybe we do it other times when not necessary
Zen (zen.arado): always grading and judging

Eliza Madrigal: ah, overdrive
Eliza Madrigal: wasting energy
Zen (zen.arado): I mean if a sunset is nice we might think...ah yes but have seen a better one
Zen (zen.arado): and spoil it

Eliza Madrigal: is it comparing if one sunset conjurs memory of a thousand others ?
Zen (zen.arado): might be if it take away from present one
Zen (zen.arado): it is the only one here now
Eliza Madrigal: but isn't that introducing time?
Zen (zen.arado): (if it was here)
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): memories introduce time

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): but there is the acknowledgment that this particular sunset is as lovely as it is on its own...regardless if there are prettier ones, etc
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen (zen.arado): yes...that's what I am saying I think

Eliza Madrigal: but if we say something is 'here now' and therefore try not to think about other times then we are bringing time in too
Zen (zen.arado): so why introduce others?
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): there are things that are better than other things...but that does not take away the merit of the lesser thing
Zen (zen.arado): not trying not to think
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): why are we trying to not think of other times? why compartmentalize it?

Eliza Madrigal: yes that's my question I think... if we become fixated on now at the expense of fluidity
Zen (zen.arado): does the comparison improve the present experience?
Eliza Madrigal: how would I know... would have to measure
Zen (zen.arado): or detract from it?

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): I am always judging, discerning, evaluating...integrating.
Zen (zen.arado): me too
Zen (zen.arado): too much I am thinking
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): I see this as a human state and a good thing
Eliza Madrigal: cause and effect is very much part of thinking it seems
Eliza Madrigal: if not thinking itself?

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): ah...
Zen (zen.arado): have we any choice then?
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): no...
Eliza Madrigal: 'we'? maybe not
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): except if blank out
Zen (zen.arado): surprised
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): even then...its there

Zen (zen.arado): don't most think we have clear choices?
Eliza Madrigal: I think we do feel compelled to choose
Zen (zen.arado): or difficult choices, but choices nontheless?
Eliza Madrigal: which may not be exactly the same

-BELL

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): about a biophysical process?
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): can you stop your heart from beating by just choosing it or would that require some external actuion to induce?
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): or hunger...one must ingest nourishment
Eliza Madrigal: That's very helpful!
Zen (zen.arado): the body has autonomic systems of control

Eliza Madrigal: there are things in play we don't choose, but we DO choose things that have impact on biological processes even
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): can't stop my eyes from seeing, can't stop my sense of touch or hearing what I hear...the very thing sense organs do
Eliza Madrigal: but we may overextend our energies... eye energies, excitment energies
Zen (zen.arado): but what you choose is based on everything that went before
Eliza Madrigal: and do that without question
Zen (zen.arado): and your abilities and experiences

Eliza Madrigal: it can seem out of hand just because we've never asked if it really is
Zen (zen.arado): your genetic makeup
Eliza Madrigal: this is quite interesting to consider really...
Zen (zen.arado): the asking is unchosen too maybe
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): epistlemology is very interesting
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen (zen.arado): don't know
Eliza Madrigal: makes me think of Inception actually... 'do you remember how you got here?'
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): I know I am here:)
Zen (zen.arado): how does a baby know when to be born?
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): ?
Eliza Madrigal: :)) but the moment in Inception, the sense is that one thinks they have some idea about the make up of reality... cause and effect...
Eliza Madrigal: but little that we trust in, is direct experience
Zen (zen.arado): we use words and definitions so casually

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo) trusts direct experience fully
Zen (zen.arado): wonder if I ever experience it
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): in the movie they are still living that place
Zen (zen.arado): so wrapped up in dreams and thoughts
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): trusting direct experience
Eliza Madrigal: hmm...
Zen (zen.arado): is there any such thing
Zen (zen.arado): ?
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): yes
Zen (zen.arado): my whole previous life experience filters most of it out

Eliza Madrigal: So, if someone talked to you about someone else, and you had knowledge of them from your own experience, the latter is what you rely on primarily
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): say again?
Eliza Madrigal: so that filters out the hearsay, yet, there may be 'fact' in what you've been told....
Zen (zen.arado): I think previous experience outweighs it

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): integration of the two
Eliza Madrigal: yes, thinking of how we measure our relationships
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): and ensuring one is just in fair in their evaluation
Zen (zen.arado): take away my knowing you too and all knowledge of SL and pab
Eliza Madrigal: but what does one 'know'? facts?
Zen (zen.arado): what would I make of this?
Eliza Madrigal: facts can be rearranged endlessly
Eliza Madrigal: based on emotion
Zen (zen.arado): wonder what 'facts' are?

Eliza Madrigal: hm... yes Zen what is your experience of this without knowing us or having history of PaB?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen (zen.arado): would be meaningless
Eliza Madrigal: kinda crazy...hahah
Eliza Madrigal: but that IS the first time experience
Eliza Madrigal: which wasn't meaningless in its time?
Zen (zen.arado): or knowledge of computers, screens etc
Zen (zen.arado): keyboards
Zen (zen.arado): first time experience?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, being here, or anywhere, for the first time
Zen (zen.arado): oh first time yeh

Eliza Madrigal: it is very hard not to generalize, I'll give you that...
Eliza Madrigal: and I guess that's where your categories question comes
Zen (zen.arado): just thinking if you remove all previous knowledge this first time experience wouldn't be much
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): it would mean everything
Zen (zen.arado): would be totally alien
Eliza Madrigal: you might be annoyed by me if you didn't know me... couldn't hear my voice
Zen (zen.arado): how do you mean Susan?
Eliza Madrigal: (you may be anyway, haha)
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): it would be new

Zen (zen.arado): it would be new and fresh for sure
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): I was walking...maybe I am at a diffenerent place in the conversation
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): sorry
Zen (zen.arado): but maybe frighteningly unfamliar?
 

Eliza Madrigal: YES.... I actually think much of what sustains one though ups and downs is the first memory
Eliza Madrigal: no I don't think so Sussan... first impressions become filters perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: re being in a different place of conversation
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): ty
Zen (zen.arado): seems ok to me Susan

Eliza Madrigal: so my 'wow people here are so engaged' feeling about pab, plows through moments when I think 'am I really playing on a pretend trampoline with my morning?'
Zen (zen.arado): so is this another case of dropping what we have?
Eliza Madrigal: is it?
Eliza Madrigal listens
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): what does this mean, zen
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): life is wonderful, eliza
Zen (zen.arado): what we have clouds what is here now
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): ty for that visual...always skipping
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen (zen.arado): like old memories and knowledge
Zen (zen.arado): and can we drop that?
Zen (zen.arado): or should we?
Eliza Madrigal: and who would be better if we did?
Eliza Madrigal nods

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): this is the common deniminator of pab-ites...there is always more...jsut be
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Zen (zen.arado): to just be isn't so easy
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): I don't think we can drop it...but can evolve it...this seems far healthier and intgerated
Eliza Madrigal: impossible
Eliza Madrigal: ah, interesting.... and central question
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Arch :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arch :)
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): I don't want to leave parts of my life behind...I want each piece to build...to learn...to become more
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): hi arch
Arch (archmage.atlantis): it is koan
Zen (zen.arado): seems a good model Susan
Zen (zen.arado): but maybe the past drags us down?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): the holy dark is moing
Zen (zen.arado): holds us back?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): God is here
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Blessings

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): no compartmenalization...no gross generalizations...integration=just be
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): maybe those referent points in your history are keys
Zen (zen.arado): I find generalizing essential
Zen (zen.arado): uh oh better stop it :)
Eliza Madrigal: seems to have to do with motivation and needle's eyes
Eliza Madrigal: did Arch already poof?

Dash (dash.earthboy): hey Susan :)
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): hi dash
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dash :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Dash :)
Dash (dash.earthboy): hey y'all

Eliza Madrigal: Zen, do you understand the wild fox zen koan?
Zen (zen.arado): Hyakujo's Fox?
Zen (zen.arado): no
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: :) okay
Zen (zen.arado): remind me
Eliza Madrigal: well it is complex but I think it speaks to the heart of this morning's conversation in a way I can't articulate
Zen (zen.arado): man lived 500 lives as a fox for telling someone he ...
Eliza Madrigal: it questions whether enlightenment = transcendence of cause and effect... but it has more layers than just that
Eliza Madrigal: because then it is easy to side track into what enlightenment means
Eliza Madrigal: and if a person can be enlightened

Zen (zen.arado): ''The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation.' For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?"

Hyakujo said: "The enlightened man is one with the law of causation."'

Eliza Madrigal: etc
Zen (zen.arado): ah...subject to not the same as one with
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): a subject here
Eliza Madrigal: >whew< well that settles that
Eliza Madrigal: hahha
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): :)

Zen (zen.arado): reminds me of what I am reading and thinking with Daryl Bailey
Dash (dash.earthboy): pax et bonum y'all
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): tc, dash
Zen (zen.arado): bye Dash
Eliza Madrigal: Brb, have a technical pab thing to do really fast....
Eliza Madrigal: OK.... google groups has changed a bit

Zen (zen.arado): that we are part of and one with the movement of nature
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Zen (zen.arado): not a separate 'enlightened being' that then can suffer cause and effect
Eliza Madrigal: in accord...

Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): thank you so much for this...
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you so much Susan
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): next part of my trip to work
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): bus waits for no one...and I can't fly yet...so
Zen (zen.arado): ty too Susan
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Eliza Madrigal: yet
Zen (zen.arado): must have put Dash off
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps... we were deep into discussion
Zen (zen.arado): better go and leave you in peace
Eliza Madrigal: but I'm happy about that, really enjoyed this
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay...
Zen (zen.arado): thanks Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hugs Hugs
Zen (zen.arado): hugs