2011.09.06 13:00 - Diversity: To Each Her Happiness

The guardian for this session was Bruce Mowbray.  The editing and comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

 

Wol Euler: hello bruce

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!

Bruce Mowbray: How is the pool/sauna project coming along?

Wol Euler: is there a dream session today?

Wol Euler: late :/

Wol Euler: very late :/

Wol Euler: it's going to be beautiful, some day soon

Bruce Mowbray: There may be a Dream Circle -- Maxine was here for a couple of seconds at the top of the hour.

Bruce Mowbray: I thought that the Dream Circle had recessed and Maxine was looking for the 7 a.m. Friday slot to get it started again.

Bruce Mowbray: (a topic for discussion at tomorrow's WG mtg.)

Wol Euler: apparently there is!

Wol Euler: mind if I go?

Bruce Mowbray: Of course not.  Enjoy! -- NP!

Wol Euler: sorry :) catch you later

Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again, though.

Bruce Mowbray: Enjoy the dreams!

 

BELL

 

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aph!

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: Quiet today!! Perhaps b/c it's the day after labour day

Bruce Mowbray: Maybe, of course it could also be that there's a Dream Circle at this hour.

Bruce Mowbray: Wol and Maxine were here at the top of the hour.

Bruce Mowbray: feel free to go to that, if you wish.

Aphrodite Macbain: No, one should be there at the beginning of those sessions

Bruce Mowbray: Well, I've claimed this session and I've been here all along.

Bruce Mowbray: Oh I see what you mean.

Bruce Mowbray: You need to be THERE at the beginning of the Dream Circle, of course. That's why I've never been!!

 Bruce Mowbray: Last week we had a full house here. . . Dream Circle must have been closed for the summer.

Aphrodite Macbain: Is it your regular one?

Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers. This is my regular session.

Aphrodite Macbain: How are you feeling?

Bruce Mowbray: Well, every day is different.

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, they just re-instituted it- with Luci

Bruce Mowbray: This morning I had some trouble with balance, but that's cleared up.

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Dash.

Dash Earthboy: hey Bruce, Aph :)

Aphrodite Macbain: How's your Arthritis/ Can it go away with Ibuprophen?

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Dash

Bruce Mowbray: The arthritis is still here, unfortunately. I bought a pair of crutches today.

Aphrodite Macbain: oh boy!

Bruce Mowbray: Ibuprophen is too weak.

Aphrodite Macbain: I hope the arthritis abates- it did so with my hand and knee

Bruce Mowbray: me too! I'm taking glucosamine for it.

Aphrodite Macbain: the swelling goes down

Dash Earthboy: that stuff helps Bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: yes- that's a preventative measure. I've been taking it for about 10 years

Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Dash. I sure hope so.

Aphrodite Macbain: It doesn't fix it- just prevents it

Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. . . Maybe it will prevent it from getting worse.

Aphrodite Macbain: yes, maybe. Check & see what Google says!

Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I will after this session.

Aphrodite Macbain: Crutches are a bummer.

Aphrodite Macbain: Bear won't like this!

Bruce Mowbray: Well, I don't need them all the time -- only when I'm walking long distances.

Aphrodite Macbain: oh ok good

Bruce Mowbray: Got them for the trip to Chicago -- which I'm now thinking about canceling altogether.

Aphrodite Macbain: Why did you decide to go to Chicago?

Bruce Mowbray: I wanted to walk all over Grant Park, museums, and the waterfront. . .

Bruce Mowbray: It was a lot cheaper than going to NYC for the 12th time.

Aphrodite Macbain: mmm nice

 

BELL

 

Dash Earthboy: http://arthritis.webmd.com/tc/glucosamine-and-chondroitin-topic-overview

Dash Earthboy: i'm a fan of WebMD for about 12 years now

Bruce Mowbray: I will definitely check that out, Dash. Thanks!

Dash Earthboy: yw

Bruce Mowbray: Looks like Aph poofed.

Aphrodite Macbain wonders whether the money Bruce saved for Chicago could be applied towards the retreat to Vashon Island

Dash Earthboy: they have much more than this one article

Bruce Mowbray: How are you doing today? Still at the hostel in Boulder?

Dash Earthboy: last day at the hostel

Bruce Mowbray: Oh. Hi, Aph. Didn't see you for a minute.

Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Then, moving on to somewhere better, I hope.

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes I found myself back at my little home. strange

Dash Earthboy: the desk clerks changed their attitude since I brought in Code Enforcement

Bruce Mowbray: uh oh!

Bruce Mowbray: Code Enforcement got you kicked out?

Dash Earthboy: no

Dash Earthboy: got problems fixed :)

Bruce Mowbray: cool, that's good.

Dash Earthboy: yah

Aphrodite Macbain still wonders whether the money Bruce saved for Chicago could be applied towards the retreat to Vashon Island

Bruce Mowbray: Too late to sign up for the retreat now, Aph.

Dash Earthboy: of course it required confrontation and judgment

Bruce Mowbray is not good at confrontation and/or judgment.

Aphrodite Macbain: are you sure? (about its being too late?)

Bruce Mowbray: yes, the deadline was Aug 31st.

Bruce Mowbray: yeppers, too late.

Bruce Mowbray: But also too expensive for moi.

Aphrodite Macbain: I know they are hoping to reduce costs by bringing in more people; the rules can be bended

Bruce Mowbray: The plane fare alone would be prohibitive.

Aphrodite Macbain: It should cost about $700 + travel

Bruce Mowbray: yes.

Aphrodite Macbain: oh too bad~

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: I'm taking the train - as you know

Bruce Mowbray: yes, and meeting up with Luci?

Aphrodite Macbain: yes - looks like she will also be picking people up from the airport later

Bruce Mowbray: cool. That's also how we did it in Halifax.

Bruce Mowbray: In fact, Eos made TWO trips to the airport and then THREE to the retreat place - which was an hour's drive south of Halifax.

Bruce Mowbray: and the airport is half an hour's drive NORTH of the city.

Bruce Mowbray: poor Eos.

Aphrodite Macbain: I think I'm going to go and paint on the roof now. If you get a chance, have a look and see how I rearranged my plot.- I have the Rocky mountains in the background and lily pads in ponds to lie on.:-)

Bruce Mowbray: ok. Enjoy your painting.  I'll check out your plot.

Bruce Mowbray: bye for now!

Dash Earthboy: bye Aph

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Bruce, Bye Dash

Bruce Mowbray: well, kiddo, it's just you and me left in this ol' town.

Dash Earthboy: i dislike confrontation too and don't consider myself very good at it

Bruce Mowbray: There's a point when one must say "NO"

Dash Earthboy: there are times here at PaB where utterances are inclusive

Dash Earthboy: and I must say "NO"

Bruce Mowbray: It bothers me too, sometimes - - but I usually don't say anything.

Dash Earthboy: so, regarding the topic of "truths" let me just share what a couple have said, including one of my role models, that there are indeed "truths" (not realities, or events, etc)

Dash Earthboy: "Wars, factions, and fighting have no other origin than this same body and its lusts. ... We must set the soul free from it; we must behold things as they are. And having thus got rid of the foolishness of the body, we shall be pure and hold converse with the pure, and shall in our own selves have complete knowledge of the Incorruptible which is, I take it, no other than the very truth."  - Socrates several centuries BC

Dash Earthboy: hey Susan

Dash Earthboy: as you know, I have Socrates as a role model

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Susan.

iwandertoo: waves

Dash Earthboy: And as a Quaker I'm surprised you aren't familiar with this:

Dash Earthboy: "Says one that God has long since mercifully favoured with his fatherly visitation, and who was not disobedient to the heavenly vision and call; to whom the way of truth is more lovely and precious than ever, and that knowing the beauty and benefit of it above all worldly treasures, has chosen it for his chiefest joy, and therefore recommends it to thy love and choice, because he is with great sincerity and affection,"

 Thy soul's friend,  - WILLIAM PENN

Bruce Mowbray: Do you see your body as somehow "lower" than your ideas/ideals? (inferior)

milakel: hoi :)

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Mila!

Dash Earthboy: hey Mila

iwandertoo: waves

Bruce Mowbray: Oh Dash -- I'm not a Quaker (more of a Quacker, actually). -- I just enjoy sitting with them every week.

milakel: susan is here too :)

milakel: i thought it was a boys' party :)

Dash Earthboy: still, i have presented some valid points in quotes from people I admire

iwandertoo: I can go

Bruce Mowbray: Join us, if you dare!  ;-)

milakel: :P

Dash Earthboy: welcome Mila & Susan

Bruce Mowbray: no, really! -- Please do stay if you wish to.

 

BELL

 

iwandertoo: (waves)

milakel: *senses misunderstanding* :)

milakel: eh

milakel: i think susan took it the wrong way :/

Dash Earthboy: wonder why?

Bruce Mowbray: no misunderstanding, Mila. . . Dash and I are discussing the on-going debate between the carnal and the spiritual. . .

Bruce Mowbray: or in Platonic terms, the ideal and the material.

Bruce Mowbray: (I usually side with the carnal/physical and Dash usually sides with the Platonic ideal.)

milakel: interesting

milakel: :)

Dash Earthboy: except I believe they are interconnected as demonstrated by physical examples I've given

Bruce Mowbray: My body participates with its environment --

Bruce Mowbray listens for more.

Dash Earthboy: i don't segregate them into carnal vs spiritual

Bruce Mowbray: This sounds pretty "segregated": "Wars, factions, and fighting have no other origin than this same body and its lusts. ... We must set the soul free from it; we must behold things as they are. . . "

Dash Earthboy: yah Mila, my examples include one of my role models, Socrates

Dash Earthboy: "Wars, factions, and fighting have no other origin than this same body and its lusts. ... We must set the soul free from it; we must behold things as they are. And having thus got rid of the foolishness of the body, we shall be pure and hold converse with the pure, and shall in our own selves have complete knowledge of the Incorruptible which is, I take it, no other than the very truth."   - Socrates several centuries BC

Dash Earthboy: sounds pretty integrated to me

Bruce Mowbray: but seeing the body and the material world as "the origin of all wars," etc?

Dash Earthboy: poor reading there

Dash Earthboy: not the body

milakel: i wonder how this quote is read in the original :)

Dash Earthboy: so much as its lusts

Dash Earthboy: understanding what we are as a whole

Bruce Mowbray: My view is that refusal to listen to the body and accepting its relationship to the world is the "origin of all troubles" -- the primordial split.

Bruce Mowbray: good point, Mila. The original.

Dash Earthboy: yes the original is about "truth"

Dash Earthboy: as Socrates believed there are definite truths

Dash Earthboy: and definite good & evil

Dash Earthboy: as did Jesus

milakel: there is giving a certain amount of a representative set

Dash Earthboy: this was another example I had presented to Bruce on "truth" per Quaker leaders:

Dash Earthboy: "Says one that God has long since mercifully favoured with his fatherly visitation, and who was not disobedient to the heavenly vision and call; to whom the way of truth is more lovely and precious than ever, and that knowing the beauty and benefit of it above all worldly treasures, has chosen it for his chiefest joy, and therefore recommends it to thy love and choice, because he is with great sincerity and affection,"

 Thy soul's friend,   - WILLIAM PENN

Dash Earthboy: both of those quotes are part of my standard signoff signature in emails

milakel: eh, that's too close to god for me :)

Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm.

Dash Earthboy: i hear ya

Bruce Mowbray: "and that knowing the beauty and benefit of it above all worldly treasures"

Bruce Mowbray: A clear distancing of heaven and earth, there, it seems.

Dash Earthboy: and when I hear a Quaker deny the truths taught by Jesus, I am repulsed.

Bruce Mowbray: A basic Quaker position (I say this, not being one myself) is the freedom of each individual to discern how spirit speaks to her/him individually. . .

Dash Earthboy: Bruce, Penn says truth is more beautiful and beneficial than your house

Bruce Mowbray: so one's interpretation of Jesus' "truths" could be different for each Quaker.

Bruce Mowbray: well, my house is really NOT so beautiful!

Dash Earthboy: from misreadings and misunderstandings of what one hears and sees, there are differences

milakel: i believe in truths in math. but even then it's based on a certain axiomatic that is just taken as is.

Dash Earthboy: my role models taught basically "who has ears to hear & eyes to see will see what I'm saying as truth"

milakel: as for godly truth - there's none for me

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Dash Earthboy: it's your choice mila

milakel: sam :)

Dash Earthboy: hey Sam

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Samuo!

oO0Oo: oops.. a bit of a slingshot entrance.. sorry if I bumped you Mila Hi all

milakel: no worries :)

Dash Earthboy: just in time for the pause :)

milakel: it was rather fun :)

 

BELL

 

milakel: *notices that dash tracks time* :)

Dash Earthboy: attention to details

Dash Earthboy: *the pause that some here in PaB hold sacred and others have contempt for

milakel: what color are my eyes? :)

Dash Earthboy: i pay attention to things that make a difference

milakel: heh :)

Dash Earthboy: eye color matters not to me on avatars

Bruce Mowbray: Dash, I don't know anyone who holds the 'drops' to be sacred -- They are merely a method.

milakel: relative truths, dash :)

Dash Earthboy: then why the shooshing sometimes, Bruce?

milakel: bruce, wait - Pema does! :)

Dash Earthboy: lafs

Dash Earthboy: to some, nothing is sacred

Bruce Mowbray: The shooshing is to respect everyone.... Some use the drops to get refills of coffee -- Some use them for their intended purpose. "Drop what you have to see what you are" -- and variations of that.

Dash Earthboy: but i don't usually enjoy their company for long

milakel: "refills of coffee" - i like that :)

Dash Earthboy: :)

milakel: very calming

Bruce Mowbray: your questioning of the value of 'drops' is itself quite valuable, I feel.

Dash Earthboy: :)

Bruce Mowbray: What would happen if something that you have, or that holds you, could be dropped for 90 seconds? Who knows . . . but it might be an interesting exploration/experiment.

milakel: i'd like to be a drop that falls up to the sky

milakel: a little drop rocket launch :)

Dash Earthboy: lafs

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Bruce Mowbray: there's that verticality that Dash loves!

Dash Earthboy: never heard "verticality" before

Bruce Mowbray: I'm more of a horizontally oriented guy, myself.

oO0Oo: that reminds me... Mila I have really enjoyed your poems that have been sprouting up lately

Dash Earthboy: sounds like good word tho :)

milakel: heh, thank you :)

milakel: i like them rhymed

oO0Oo: :)

oO0Oo: your voice

milakel: pushkin taught me that :)

Bruce Mowbray: church spires, tall buildings, rockets, and orthodox Christian theology: all vertically arranged

oO0Oo: when it comes to shovekin, I get off the phone

Dash Earthboy: small subset for your comparison there Bruce

milakel: hmm, interesting, bruce

Dash Earthboy: of course

Bruce Mowbray: Well, there is this "ascending" thing: the basic "up-ness" of the "good" (or so it is thought)

milakel: phallic symbols? :)

Dash Earthboy: lafs

Bruce Mowbray: yes, those also.

Bruce Mowbray: but phallic is not "bad" for us horizontalists, you understand.

milakel: :)

milakel: quite a rigid separation

Bruce Mowbray: Lust in and of itself is not "bad" -- it's what might be done with it that involves invasion/violation.

milakel: lust is awesome

Bruce Mowbray: Lust for life!

milakel: if you ask me :)

Bruce Mowbray: me too!

Dash Earthboy: eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you die :)

milakel: but not when my head hurts :)

Bruce Mowbray: but I also respect borders, or try to.

milakel: dash, good words actually

Dash Earthboy: for the Romaneque mind

milakel: i see them as "try things"

Dash Earthboy: Romanesque

milakel: don't be afraid to fail

milakel: as the only failure is never to try

Dash Earthboy: i think Hitler used that philosophy to try to create the master race

milakel: :)

Bruce Mowbray: I say, listen to hear how it is with you - - - and it's all right if that's different than it is for everyone else.... Respect your own intuition and the borders that keep things respectful.

Bruce Mowbray: Hitler didn't respect ANYONE's borders.

Dash Earthboy: and I'm finding those who don't respect mine

Dash Earthboy: they mock instead

Bruce Mowbray: and Hitler probably never listened to himself either. Alice Miller researched Hitler's childhood. A horribly abused child.

Dash Earthboy: i've studied on weird people like Hitler, including Mein Kampf

Bruce Mowbray: yes?

Dash Earthboy: yes

milakel: i somehow feel reluctant to step in into a Hitler discussion

Dash Earthboy: me too

Bruce Mowbray: me too, Mila.

milakel: maybe it's a sign that the conversation reached a certain "border"?

 

BELL

 

Dash Earthboy: i've been a peace worker too long

oO0Oo: Confess.. I feel that "Hitler" is a topic sooo sensitive to many people... I would feel more comfortable if the subject were treated with great care and respect for a wide audience.

Bruce Mowbray: There's a fundamental "fault" or "split" - - - - when the body is separated from the world....

Bruce Mowbray: http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Our-Senses-Morris-Berman/dp/0553348639

Bruce Mowbray: I appreciate your point, Mila.

milakel: heh, sam. I now try to think of the least respected person by the wide audience who I like :)

Bruce Mowbray listens

milakel: can't think of one :)

Dash Earthboy: lafs

Bruce Mowbray: so, you respect the differences of everyone in the audience?

milakel: or i seem to like respected people :)

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Dash Earthboy: *knows there's a clinical term for that :)

milakel: do tell :)

Dash Earthboy: naww

milakel: meh :P

Bruce Mowbray: I appreciate the herrings in the sardine net. (Those who shake up the status-quo with different views of the world.)

Bruce Mowbray: I need their viewpoints to shake me out of my own ruts..

milakel: yep

milakel: they play an important role in the universal balance

Bruce Mowbray: and also in evolution of thought and culture

Bruce Mowbray: Consider the "herrings" Socrates and Jesus, for example.

Bruce Mowbray: They seemed to shake up a lot of ruts.

milakel: :)

Bruce Mowbray: There's a real danger in turning a good thought into an institution, though.

Dash Earthboy: which takes it out of context

milakel: replaces one to favor the institution

Dash Earthboy: yes

milakel: in a while, the original meaning is lost forever

Dash Earthboy: or not

Dash Earthboy: but maybe to most it is lost

Dash Earthboy: they may not have never understood the original anyway

Dash Earthboy: or agreed with it

Bruce Mowbray: How large is that "context," Dash? Was the context of Jesus the whole Roman Empire. . . or was it a few villages in the Middle East?

milakel: in this respect i like pali canon tradition. those folks study the earliest buddhist texts and teachings.

Bruce Mowbray: or is there also a context of interpretations?

Dash Earthboy: oh Bruce, I'm soo sorry you misunderstand so much

Bruce Mowbray: yes, I probably misunderstand everything -- but the recognition of my own ignorance is an initiation into learning more.

Dash Earthboy: Jesus ministered to his fellow Jews, not the Romans

Dash Earthboy: yah, but Bruce you must also pay attention to learn

milakel: Babylon was it, no? this is where they got sent away.

Dash Earthboy: :)

Bruce Mowbray: My question was, 'How large was that context?'  Should those teachings be considered relevant merely to the Jews in Jesus' circle? Some of the gospel writers seemed to think so -- others said they applied to all humanity, for all times...

Bruce Mowbray: a question of context.

Dash Earthboy: you're talking to a Biblical scholar who knows world history with the Bible pseudo-history in that context

 

BELL

 

milakel: dash, great! so, am i right or not? :)

Bruce Mowbray: I cannot compete with your credentials, Dash. Only share my own viewpoint.

Dash Earthboy: Mila, Babylonian conquest of the Jews was ancient history by the time the Romans took over by conquering the Greeks

Dash Earthboy: Bruce, your viewpoint is noted...how much authority is there behind it?

Dash Earthboy: i always say "choose your teachers"

Dash Earthboy: cooling off in the fountain, Sam?

milakel: ok, so i was right then. thanks :)

Dash Earthboy: oh, I see, walking on water :)

Dash Earthboy: Jesus appeared during the Roman occupation, Mila

milakel: um...

Dash Earthboy: *wonders if anybody really is listening?

Bruce Mowbray: I am really listening. But does listening require agreement?

Dash Earthboy: who says it does Bruce?

Bruce Mowbray: Well, you seem to be saying that there is a RIGHT and a WRONG interpretation. . .

Dash Earthboy: i do?

Dash Earthboy: you mean I indicate there may be bad interpretations?

Bruce Mowbray: The quotes you gave earlier. . . That there is One Truth.... etc.

Dash Earthboy: bad translations? that mislead?

Bruce Mowbray: Your indication seems to be that there is A Truth.

milakel: a common pattern that the prophets appear in the time of distress

Dash Earthboy: yes I do feel that way, as did my role models

milakel: sam :)

Bruce Mowbray: One Truth . . as differing from multiple experiences - all of which may be valid in their own contexts.

Bruce Mowbray: wb, Sam!

oO0Oo: ty

Dash Earthboy: seriously, I've learned that while there are a hundred different accounts of an accident, there is only one true rendering of it

milakel: how do you determine the true one?

Bruce Mowbray: what the "accident" is/means may be different for different persons - -

Dash Earthboy: and I make enough mistakes to know :)

Bruce Mowbray: and each of those may be "true"

Dash Earthboy: not legally Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: To one it's a blessing; to another it's a curse.

Bruce Mowbray: I am not talking about law -- I am talking about experience.

Dash Earthboy: generalizing

Dash Earthboy: out of context

milakel: if you take ancient history all we have is an interpretation and a very limited one

Dash Earthboy: there is more to ancient history than the Bible

Bruce Mowbray: Do you not regard each individual to have a unique and valuable viewpoint? -- or must they all somehow conform to a "true" framework?

milakel: much less than the internet :)

milakel: and go figure the truth there :)

Dash Earthboy: Bruce that sounds very confrontational and antagonistic

Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- I don't mean to be confrontational at all! I am just trying to say that I strive to respect a variety of viewpoints in every circumstance.

Dash Earthboy: you're assuming and trying to impart such assumptions to me

Bruce Mowbray: I respect YOUR viewpoint, Dash, but that doesn't mean I think yours or anyone else's should be required belief for everyone.

milakel: i think it's time for some beer and dancing :)

Dash Earthboy: agreed Mila

Bruce Mowbray: Me too, mila!

milakel: :)

Bruce Mowbray: Also, time to walk the dog.

Bruce Mowbray: To be continued, folks.

Dash Earthboy: so off we go

Dash Earthboy: pax et bonum y'all

Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, and to each her happiness!