The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cat, hey bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Yaku!
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi guys :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Cat!
Bruce Mowbray: Yaku and I are still line dancing!
Catrinamonblue Resident: love the movin and the grovin :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Curiously, he's just a beat or two ahead of me!
Yakuzza Lethecus: on the other sim it was all in sync
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe that's his magic wand at work!
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
Bruce Mowbray: Care for some mulled wine, Cat?
Catrinamonblue Resident: sure
Bruce Mowbray: kk, just a sec, please.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: ty :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: You are most welcome!
Catrinamonblue Resident: language and imagination? I understand is the topic
Bruce Mowbray: A combination of the tin foil helmet, and the leopard feet, and the wine is surely enough to hold off the Apocolypse, don't you think?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: If it's kk with Yaky, I will try to explain . . .
Bruce Mowbray: Language, self-concept, imagination....
Catrinamonblue Resident: listens
Yakuzza Lethecus: sure
Bruce Mowbray: We apparently do not have memories prior to our acquisition of language.... no matter how rudimentary.
Bruce Mowbray: nor, do we have a sense of "self" prior to memories...
Bruce Mowbray: so, it would seem to follow...
Bruce Mowbray: that language is required for a concept of "self."
Bruce Mowbray: but...
Bruce Mowbray: along with that comes imagination...
Bruce Mowbray: so, our language serves and contributes to our sense of self, no?
Bruce Mowbray: and perhaps is even necessary for it.
Bruce Mowbray: But, then the imagination gets in there too.
Bruce Mowbray: So the question, for me (only) is:
Bruce Mowbray: Can I trust my own sense of who I am...
Bruce Mowbray: given that language and imagination have shaped my image of self.
Bruce Mowbray: my sense of self.
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands, except for holding the wine.
Catrinamonblue Resident: language is the way in which I describe me, imagination is me?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, some would say that without language you couldn't have a personal narrative.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bruce Mowbray: and without a personal narrative, you couldn't have a "self."
Bruce Mowbray: So, I'm not sure what all that amounts to...
Bruce Mowbray: I have a good friend who insists that his "self memories" do not invo;ve language, but, instead, images.
Bruce Mowbray: involve*
Bruce Mowbray: and he has an absolutely incredible memory.
Bruce Mowbray: but all image-related.
Bruce Mowbray: so, maybe language and imagination are not so important - or required.
Bruce Mowbray looks over to the board to see if he's still on-topic.
Catrinamonblue Resident: For me, my sense of self is is as I said above, language is my description but imagination is the real me.
Catrinamonblue Resident: opps are we still on topic?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I am sure that we are, Cat.
Bruce Mowbray: So, do you have autobiographical narratives?
Catrinamonblue Resident: language is limited in description but images have no limitations
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh yes I have autobiographical narratives
Bruce Mowbray: The Jungian psychologists would say that "soul" is imaginal...
--BELL--
Catrinamonblue Resident: all the time n my head every minute
Bruce Mowbray: that images are what makes and nourishes the soul....
Bruce Mowbray says OOOPS. sry for interrupting the drop.
Catrinamonblue Resident: opps :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey qt
Qt Core: Hi all
Catrinamonblue Resident: hello Qt
Bruce Mowbray keeps forgetting how effective his wood stove fire is in heating the whole house.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Qt!
Bruce Mowbray: Would you care for some mulled wine, Qt?
Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
Qt Core: ty
Bruce Mowbray ponders what Cat just said: "Images have no limitations."
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen!
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Care for some mulled wine, Zen?
Zen Arado: perfer it straight though :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. I'll see what I can do....
Qt Core: mental images are as in they exist, but without language could not be examined ?
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh! There's that language thing again!
Catrinamonblue Resident: perhaps but when I try to put language to an image it falls short of the image
Zen Arado: self is a language based construct to me
Bruce Mowbray: A lot of linguists say that we cannot think (or imagine) anything that we have no language for.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Zen, and I would agree that it also true for me.
Zen Arado: you can only see images
Qt Core: never said languages are perfect rappresentation of reality even mental realities
Zen Arado: nt think with them
Zen Arado: does that seem right?
Bruce Mowbray: How about dreaming with images?
Zen Arado: do we think in dreams?
Zen Arado: hmm
Bruce Mowbray: Dreaming seems more based on images than on languages....
Bruce Mowbray: but the imagination is active in both waking and dreaming states.
Zen Arado: so it is just a series of images
Catrinamonblue Resident: my dreams are more like movie fragments vivid in both image and sound
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I'd say that dreams are that, Zen.
Zen Arado: I'm sure I think in dreams too
Zen Arado: not like watching a movie
Zen Arado: I feel emotions
Bruce Mowbray: My dreams are definitely emotional and imaginative, but not sure they are also lingual.
Zen Arado: that requires thought?
Qt Core: dreams are preverbal (i think) as thought is preverbal but then every way we know to express it to others is verbal (maybe art aside)
Zen Arado: emotions come from thought don't they?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I feel that thought is there in all of our states -- waking, dreaming, intoxication, etc.
Zen Arado: yes Qt
Zen Arado: maybe we add a verbal description afterwards
Bruce Mowbray: I don't feel that emotions come from thought, necessarily.
Qt Core: and that explain as i rarely get arts, i'm mostly verbal
Zen Arado: not in deep sleep though
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I feel that too, Zen... a verbal description afterwards.
Zen Arado: that is like death
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Zen Arado: why don't we fear deep sleep then?
Bruce Mowbray: cuz we do it several times every night?
Zen Arado: deep sleep is the same mentally as death
Qt Core: as everything we are brain apart need is ?
Qt Core: it*
Bruce Mowbray: so perhaps our fear of death is not based on experience.
Bruce Mowbray: but on non-experience.
Bruce Mowbray: (although I don't fear death at all, actually!)
Catrinamonblue Resident: neither do I :)
Bruce Mowbray wonders why he's wearing this tin foil helmet to protect himself from the apcolypse if he doesn't fear death.
Zen Arado: that's okay but if they told me I was going to die tomorrow I still wouldn't want that to happen
Catrinamonblue Resident: I would
Bruce Mowbray: That's probably more because you love life than because you fear death, Zen.
Zen Arado: I want to finish my writing course first :-)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: GOOD choice!
Bruce Mowbray wants to be sure he's finished "writing" his life first....
Zen Arado: that would be a long the book :-)
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers... one can hope.
Bruce Mowbray: but also, that implies that dying is not part of the book of life.
Bruce Mowbray: and I really disagree with that idea.
Zen Arado: it's hard to get away from conventional ideas on this
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, our language sort of sucks us into conventional thinking.
Zen Arado: it has been drummed in to us all our life that everything stops at death
Bruce Mowbray: uh huh, it has.
Bruce Mowbray: no more mulled wine, after death, then?
Zen Arado: but it's because we have made the concepts of life and death
Zen Arado: well I can cope with that :-)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: You know something? My dog has experienced death of other living things many times....
Bruce Mowbray: but he has no concept of his own death, I don't think.
Zen Arado: yes I wonder
Bruce Mowbray: and I suspect that this is because he has no language for it.
Bruce Mowbray: and let's face it, our own death can only be imaginal . . .
Zen Arado: I think my t dog knew he was going to die
Bruce Mowbray: really? That's really interesting, Zen.
Zen Arado: it's justhe vet came to put him down
Zen Arado: my voice typing is acting up knew he was going to die
Bruce Mowbray: hmmm. so sad, but I've been there a few times myself, where you were with the vet.
Yakuzza Lethecus: 's current display-name is "Yaku".
Bruce Mowbray: This is partly why I say that the "narrative" of our lives ought to include the death chapter.
Zen Arado: Why do we need to tell so many stories
Bruce Mowbray: Because, perhaps, our stories are who we are?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Zen Arado: we actually construct our wdon't
Bruce Mowbray: Would be cease to exist without or personal narratives?
Bruce Mowbray: we*
Zen Arado: gives up with voice typing
Bruce Mowbray: our*
Zen Arado: as an ego, yes I think
Bruce Mowbray doesn't blame Zen a bit for giving up voice tuping -- has tried it and it never seems to work.... and isn't that a metaphor of sorts?
Bruce Mowbray: typing*
Zen Arado: doesn't work with LL viewer
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Zen Arado: it started adding in phrases there
Zen Arado: but I had other problems with Firestorm
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps voice typing has an imagination of its own.
Bruce Mowbray: has its own stories to tell.
Zen Arado: It works great with Microsoft Word
Bruce Mowbray thinks: It's time for my typist to go stoke the fire again.....
Zen Arado: it's just Second Life
Zen Arado: everyone must be at Aph's place
Zen Arado: I feel lethargic
Bruce Mowbray: Too much mulled wine, perhaps?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Zen Arado: just the time of year
Bruce Mowbray: Some of us were at Aph's place earlier, before this session.
Bruce Mowbray: Did lots of line dancing.
Zen Arado: ah ok
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: That's where Yaku got his magic wand, in fact. (Hope I'm not giving away secrets, Yaku!)
Catrinamonblue Resident: bubbles!!!!!!!!
Bruce Mowbray: OH DEAR! WRONG WAND!
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
Zen Arado: :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i try to keep my eyes open
Bruce Mowbray: yes?
Zen Arado: don't any of you feel lethargic at this time of the year?
Zen Arado: It's like I have lots of things to do but just don't feel like doing them
Bruce Mowbray: Well, Zen, I feel something like that. . .
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I have SAD and always am affected at this time of year
Zen Arado: I'm not sure if I have that or not
Bruce Mowbray: but I sometimes feel the same at other paretsw of the year -- like "spring fever...."
Catrinamonblue Resident: Seasonal Affective Disorder - as well I deal with deep depression and anxiety
Bruce Mowbray: yes, maybe it is SAD.
Zen Arado: summertime blues :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.... ponders something to do with autumn, also....
Zen Arado: there ain't no cure
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: :-)
Zen Arado: Bruce remembers the song
Bruce Mowbray wonders how much of this is the imagination playing tricks on us.
Bruce Mowbray: Aint no cure for the summertime blues!
Zen Arado: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: (tra la!)
Zen Arado: that was back in the fifties Bruce
Zen Arado: Eddie Cochran
Catrinamonblue Resident: before me :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I remember the 50s well.
Bruce Mowbray: My formative adolescent years.
Zen Arado: yep
Bruce Mowbray: when my imaginative powers had major workouts!
Zen Arado: we were totally imprisoned by our thoughts then
Zen Arado: now we can be more objective
Bruce Mowbray: adn found release in our imaginative worlds... sort of like now!
Bruce Mowbray: he he.
Zen Arado: we could tell ourselves bad stories too
Zen Arado: about ourselves
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes, we could do that.
Zen Arado: or maybe I should say I could
Bruce Mowbray: That was something I had to learn not to do.
Zen Arado: I'm getting to general
Bruce Mowbray: Well, Zen , I feel you're right on target.
Bruce Mowbray: and also on target with this week's topic.
Zen Arado: I notice myself telling myself stories
Zen Arado: and I just tell myself to shut up
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.....
Zen Arado: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: sometimes the shut up doesn't work
Zen Arado: did you ever read Byron Katie?
Catrinamonblue Resident: i interject a good or happy thought in the middle
Zen Arado: She is good on that
Catrinamonblue Resident: try to change the story as it goes along
Bruce Mowbray: Well, as I understand it, this week's topic is about how the imagination contributes to the stories we tell ourselves...
Zen Arado: she teaches us to challenge the story
Zen Arado: is it true?
Zen Arado: Is it really true?
Bruce Mowbray: Sometimes a story is just a story....
Zen Arado: I think mostly it's all a story
Zen Arado: sometimes harmless but sometimes not
Bruce Mowbray: and I would agree with that, Zen....
Zen Arado: just a useful interpretation of reality
Zen Arado: nothing more
Bruce Mowbray: but somehow the stories get us through the night -- and the day.,
Zen Arado: yes of course
Zen Arado: we seem to need our stories
Zen Arado: they comfort us
Bruce Mowbray: A friend who understands, and who accepts -- whether or not he/she agrees or thinks that it is "true" -- is a true friend....
Catrinamonblue Resident: they tell us about ourselves
Zen Arado: maybe that's what religion does too
Bruce Mowbray: Inddd, it does, Zen.
Bruce Mowbray: What are religions -- other than really deep stories.
Zen Arado: so we have to be careful about destroying people's stories
Bruce Mowbray: always!
Zen Arado: yes
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Be of others a bit more careful than of everything.
Bruce Mowbray has to go now. THANK YOU, everyone!
Qt Core: bye Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Bruce
Zen Arado: kk byee Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Zen Arado: I better go too
Zen Arado: byee all
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Zen
Qt Core: I have to go too, bye all
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Qt
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm off too :)